Freakonomics radio podcasts on repatriation of stolen art by museums

[robinjojo]

I came across these podcasts, three in all, that focuses on the Benin bronzes along with other antiquities.

 

 

 

 

[DonnaML]

If you start out by labeling all artifacts in Western museums as "stolen" or "looted," of course you'll conclude that they should be returned. It's what I would call an a priori argument, assuming its own conclusion.  So I hope the podcasts don't simply make that assumption, and make an effort to show that the artifacts they're discussing actually were stolen or looted.  Not to mention addressing the murky issue of "to whom" they should be returned if they were in fact stolen or looted. From what I've read, some or all of the relinquished Benin bronzes are in the possession of the royal family and won't be displayed in museums after all. 

[CPK]

Hmm, so what is it this time? I don't feel like watching 3 hours of video.

Honestly, at this point I'm just getting really tired of the whole discussion. It's mostly inane and frivolous anyway.

(Referring to the news/media/podcasts, of course - not @robinjojo!)

 

[sand]

For me, the idea of "cultural property" is meaningless. Therefore, for me, the ideas of "cultural repatriation", "cultural patrimony", and "cultural appropriation" are meaningless. For me, all artifacts, and all ideas, are the property of all of humanity, regardless of where you were born, and regardless of who your ancestors are.

Edited May 21, 2023 by sand

[DonnaML]

11 minutes ago, sand said:

For me, the idea of "cultural property" is meaningless. Therefore, for me, the ideas of "cultural repatriation", "cultural patrimony", and "cultural appropriation" are meaningless. For me, all artifacts, and all ideas, are the property of all of humanity, regardless of where you were born, and regardless of who your ancestors are.

To me, that's going to the other extreme. I take it you're not calling for the abolition of  property in general, or the right to seek restitution when property is stolen? If not, then why reject the idea that a nation, with its government acting on its behalf, can own both real and personal property?  Because that's almost what it sounds like.  Do you really think it was OK to loot the contents of the museum in Baghdad, or various archaeological sites, during or after the Iraq War, or that Iraq would have no right to demand the return of looted artifacts? The same with Napoleon looting the museums in Italy, the Nazis looting museums and private property all over Europe, and the Soviets returning the favor in Berlin? 

[sand]

34 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

To me, that's going to the other extreme. I take it you're not calling for the abolition of  property in general, or the right to seek restitution when property is stolen? If not, then why reject the idea that a nation, with its government acting on its behalf, can own both real and personal property?  Because that's almost what it sounds like.  Do you really think it was OK to loot the contents of the museum in Baghdad, or various archaeological sites, during or after the Iraq War, or that Iraq would have no right to demand the return of looted artifacts? The same with Napoleon looting the museums in Italy, the Nazis looting museums and private property all over Europe, and the Soviets returning the favor in Berlin? 

What I was trying to say, is that, I like the idea, that anyone would be allowed to own any artifact, no matter where the person was born, and no matter who the person's ancestors are. But, only if the property was obtained legally.

[robinjojo]

I haven't listened to all three hours of these podcasts.  From what gathered listening to the last one, about 30 minutes of it, I think it is a balanced presentation that presents the complex history of the Benin bronzes and other artifacts and antiquities in museums.  I don't think the message is that they must go back to Nigeria.  Instead, proponents for repatriation present their views while others present the problems of even who should receive them, let alone housing them in a country known for political and social upheavals.  

I plan on listening to these podcasts over the next couple of days, a break from my normal routine of classical music.

[DLTcoins]

I haven't watched the videos but as I understand it, the Benin bronzes were stolen at gunpoint in 1897. Some claims are less complex than others.

[DonnaML]

40 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

I haven't watched the videos but as I understand it, the Benin bronzes were stolen at gunpoint in 1897. Some claims are less complex than others.

But there's still the issue, I believe, that there was an agreement that the bronzes, after their return, were supposed to be displayed in a museum. In fact, that hasn't happened, and they are now in possession of the royal family there, which has its own dubious history. 

[Rand]

Arguably Lagos has as much relevance to the Kingdom of Benin as London; both are capitals of powers controlling the kingdom's territory and its people. Modern Nigeria would likely only exist with the unification led by Britain.

People of Oba or People of Nigeria had never owed the Bronzes before the repossession. The Benin Royalty commissioned them for their personal use, and, unlike with many monarchies, there was no formal transfer of these items to the people of Benin before the British repossession (not sure about recent agreements). If Benin Royaly is the true owner, they may have the right to keep them private. 

The reaches of Benin Royals, to a large extent, came from the slave trade. They used the slave trade to procure the raw materials. The artists who produced the Bronzes are unknown, and the bronzes do not seem to praise them. The bronzes manufactured over centuries came from the royal palace and were unavailable even to the broader nobility. The manufacturing process may have been a strictly guarded secret. This raises the possibility of artists being slaves, local or from other lands. This adds to the controversy of their return to Benin royalty.

[robinjojo]

I've listened to two of the three podcasts, and I find them very interesting, although I am sure for many they cover familiar ground.  Still, the perspectives presented are quite illuminating for me.

In particular I find the interview with the New York prosecutor involved in the repatriation case of the Met's Egyptian sarcophagus very interesting.  (Side note: according to the podcast the mummy was actually dumped into the Nile to reduce the weight of the sarcophagus!) I think he is also involved with the case of the Eid Mar aureus.  While there's no video, much can be determined about his personality just listening to him speak.  He sounds like a prosecutor, not surprisingly, bold, determined, with a loud voice that must project magnificently in the courtroom.  I can hear in that voice that he gives no quarter, although he does cut plea deals to gain informants.  He thinks strategically as I guess all attorneys must, at least in theory.  Above all he is passionate in a bold brash New York way on the subject of antiquates and who should possess them.  Regardless of how one feels on this subject, I find the interviews with him and others very revealing.   

Also, at least so far, I don't hear any mention of coins, probably because of the central subject that is a thread through much of the podcasts, the Benin bronzes.  I was hoping to hear some discussion on the Eid Mar aureus case, but perhaps these podcasts were produced before the news broke in January-February of this year.

I have one more podcast to go, and I highly recommend listening to all three, if you have the time, even if you need to listen to portions over several days. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by robinjojo

[Deinomenid]

@robinjojo Hi - just do you  know there was quite a long discussion  on those freakonomics episodes a week or so ago on this forum. Started part way through first page of the  hopefully attached link, started up again by jeandacre.

Just in case of  interest.