Al Kowsky Posted February 1, 2023 · Member Share Posted February 1, 2023 While browsing through old photo-files I stumbled on photos of two thalers that I don't remember posting before. These thalers were part of a larger group of foreign coins Heritage auctioned for me on January 8, 2017. The first coin was a 1640 CR thaler from Saxony picturing John George I, Elector of Saxony, 1585-1656, Davenport 7612. The coin was in choice mint state, is lustrous, & had beautiful iridescent toning 🤩, it cost me well over $1,000 & sold for $822.50 😖. I'm sure the poor photo from the Heritage E-Auction had something to do with this along with the assigned grade from NGC. I'm no expert in modern grading standards, but this thaler looks a lot better than MS 62 to my eyes 😏. What do fellow website members think 🤔? The first photo is mine & the second photo is from Heritage. The next coin is a 1610 thaler issued for Hamburg, Davenport 5360, that I bought as Ex Fine condition for less than $500. When this coin came back from NGC I was shocked to see it was graded MS 65 😲! The coin sold for $3,050.00 😂! Ironically this very same coin was put up for auction exactly one year later when it sold for $2,640.00. Does this coin deserve the grade MS 65 🤔? 12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETHER Posted February 2, 2023 · Member Share Posted February 2, 2023 Awesome toning! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali Posted February 2, 2023 · Member Share Posted February 2, 2023 Handsome coins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted February 2, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted February 2, 2023 (edited) Beautiful coins, Al! I take NGC grades with a grain of salt. That is their opinion, I have mine. I am very old school when it comes to grading, for better or worse. I really don't like the MS system. It creates the illusion of precise measurement for what is essentially a subjective matter. Sure, wear is a major, observable factor, but really in the general application - is the coin VF, EF or uncirculated? I guess I should add AU. I would grade the Hamburg thaler, a very handsome coin indeed, as a choice AU. I think modifiers such as choice, attractive, etc. are perfectly okay. Further descriptive elements can be added: well centered, bold strike and nice even toning. I guess NGC uses the MS grade to summarize the coin's condition due to lack of space on the slab for more information, a significant limitation. I find such a "shorthand" approach just too simplistic and does not do the coin justice. For historically significant coins and coins with provenance information, this approach by NGC can lead to the loss of vital information for future collectors, to say nothing of the loss information to the numismatic community. Well, enough pontificating on my part. Here's my Hamburg thaler, 1621. This coin was purchased from Karl Stephens in February 1995, or thereabouts for $369. These Hamburg city thalers were fairly available back then. A nice example could be purchased for $300 to maybe $450? A VF would run around $250 or so perhaps a little lower. They were all raw coins back then, as I recall. The slabbing services were just beginning to offer their services to world coin collectors and dealers in a big way. Germany, Ferdinand II, Hamburg, 1621, city thaler. Purchased from Karl Stephens around February 1995. Dav 5364; KM 34 28.89 grams Karl graded this coin as a nice EF, which is a reasonable grade, I think. It is somewhat lustrous, but there is also some doubling, along with a small flan flaw just above the last 1 in the date. What would NGC grade this coin? Not sure. Edited February 2, 2023 by robinjojo 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted February 3, 2023 · Patron Share Posted February 3, 2023 In my opinion the MS62 on the Saxony looks about right and the Hamburg piece is over-graded. Having a large collection from this area I have gotten almost immune to the inconsistencies in grading these coins. In my opinion the 70 point system just doesn't work on these coins. The coin below is one I purchased at the World's Fair of Money a few years ago. I was hoping for a 55-58 and it came back from NGC in a 62 holder. Do I agree? No, but I'm happy with that because it will make it easier to sell at some point. There is a lot of luster but there are areas that in my opinion show obvious wear. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted February 3, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted February 3, 2023 7 hours ago, robinjojo said: Beautiful coins, Al! I take NGC grades with a grain of salt. That is their opinion, I have mine. I am very old school when it comes to grading, for better or worse. I really don't like the MS system. It creates the illusion of precise measurement for what is essentially a subjective matter. Sure, wear is a major, observable factor, but really in the general application - is the coin VF, EF or uncirculated? I guess I should add AU. I would grade the Hamburg thaler, a very handsome coin indeed, as a choice AU. I think modifiers such as choice, attractive, etc. are perfectly okay. Further descriptive elements can be added: well centered, bold strike and nice even toning. I guess NGC uses the MS grade to summarize the coin's condition due to lack of space on the slab for more information, a significant limitation. I find such a "shorthand" approach just too simplistic and does not do the coin justice. For historically significant coins and coins with provenance information, this approach by NGC can lead to the loss of vital information for future collectors, to say nothing of the loss information to the numismatic community. Well, enough pontificating on my part. Here's my Hamburg thaler, 1621. This coin was purchased from Karl Stephens in February 1995, or thereabouts for $369. These Hamburg city thalers were fairly available back then. A nice example could be purchased for $300 to maybe $450? A VF would run around $250 or so perhaps a little lower. They were all raw coins back then, as I recall. The slabbing services were just beginning to offer their services to world coin collectors and dealers in a big way. Germany, Ferdinand II, Hamburg, 1621, city thaler. Purchased from Karl Stephens around February 1995. Dav 5364; KM 34 28.89 grams Karl graded this coin as a nice EF, which is a reasonable grade, I think. It is somewhat lustrous, but there is also some doubling, along with a small flan flaw just above the last 1 in the date. What would NGC grade this coin? Not sure. Your thaler has nice detail & luster ☺️! 4 hours ago, ChrisB said: In my opinion the MS62 on the Saxony looks about right and the Hamburg piece is over-graded. Having a large collection from this area I have gotten almost immune to the inconsistencies in grading these coins. In my opinion the 70 point system just doesn't work on these coins. The coin below is one I purchased at the World's Fair of Money a few years ago. I was hoping for a 55-58 and it came back from NGC in a 62 holder. Do I agree? No, but I'm happy with that because it will make it easier to sell at some point. There is a lot of luster but there are areas that in my opinion show obvious wear. This thaler is an excellent strike for a Wildman type & sports luster too ☺️. I sold the Wildman thaler pictured below that was slabbed by PCGS & it looks over-graded to me too. I think we can agree that there is no consistency on grading these thalers from all the grading companies 😉. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted February 3, 2023 · Patron Share Posted February 3, 2023 12 hours ago, Al Kowsky said: I think we can agree that there is no consistency on grading these thalers from all the grading companies 😉. Yep, NGC doesn't hold a monopoly on grading problems. I wouldn't mind seeing them adopt a system like NGC uses for ancients. Give it a letter grade and then grade strike and surfaces. It gives you mor information than just putting a number on it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzerman Posted February 14, 2023 · Member Share Posted February 14, 2023 Lovely Thalers Al/ Chris/Robin😍 I have a few/// Holy Roman Empire AR Thaler 1719 Hall Mint HRE Karl VI 1711-42 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Kowsky Posted February 16, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted February 16, 2023 On 2/13/2023 at 9:28 PM, panzerman said: Lovely Thalers Al/ Chris/Robin😍 I have a few/// Holy Roman Empire AR Thaler 1719 Hall Mint HRE Karl VI 1711-42 The coinage minted for the Holy Roman Empire from the 17th-18th centuries is unmatched for quality 🤩. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expat Posted February 17, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted February 17, 2023 Really enjoy looking at those thalers, thanks. We have a Saxony Friedrich Christian who was Prince Elector of Saxony for less than three months, dying of smallpox. Hence, it is a single year issue. It was owned by my Wife's Great, Great Grandmother who lived in Dresden where the coin was minted and has been handed down through the female linage ever since. Had a lot of use in it.s early life but still has a bit of meat on its bones. Year 1763 Value 4⁄3 Saxon thaler = 1 Conventionsthaler = ⅒ Cologne Mark Currency Thaler (1493-1805) Composition Silver (.833) Weight 28.8 g Diameter 43 mm Shape Round Orientation Medal alignment ↑↑ Demonetized Yes Number N# 32813 References KM# 962, Dav GT II# 2677, Schnee# 1052, Buck# 14 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenickelguy Posted February 26, 2023 · Member Share Posted February 26, 2023 The 1640 looks much better than MS62. There are no hits on it without magnification and those I see could be from the strike. I looked pretty hard at those images in the magnified window. They are tiny few and shallow. The busy design makes any minor flaws practically non existent. I don't put a lot of stock in the so called top 3 graders. Have a few dozen where about half that are way off and the other half I'm tickled with the higher grade than I expected. Some I feel are on spot. This 1640 could be a beautiful AU58 though, maybe the slightest cabinet wear on the high points. The toning may hide any slight wear. Maybe that is why it got MS62 and not higher. Maybe for the beautiful eye appeal and toning? The only one that could really dispute the grade is the one holding it in hand. All these coins are sublime! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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