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In Gratzer & Fishman's excellent book "The First Round Coins Of China", on page vii, the book states that, the "likeliest" and "generally accepted current theory", is that the earliest Chinese round coins were modeled after jade rings, which the book calls "Yubi". The book states that the jade rings "were used as religious objects (some scholars postulate that the round shape of these rings represented the heavens), decorations, as means of wealth storage and high value gifts". Here's my coin, which is 1 of the earliest Chinese round coins, a bronze coin cast circa 403 BC to 378 BC. It has a possible plugged hole, seen on the obverse at approximately 4 o'clock, and on the reverse at approximately 8 o'clock.

China. Zhou Dynasty. Warring States Period. Wei (Liang) State. AE Coin. Cast Circa 403 BC To 378 BC. Probably cast in the ancient city Wangyuan (literally meaning "King's city"). Hartill 6.3. Schjoth 73. Gratzer & Fishman A6.4. Maximum Diameter 38.7 mm. Weight 7.74 grams. Obverse : Character Yuan (literally meaning "city"). Reverse : Blank. Possible Plugged Hole.

@voulgaroktonou Thanks for posting your fascinating, and extremely rare, Constantine XI eighth stavratons. Also, thanks for posting some interesting history of Constantine XI. I enjoyed reading it. Your Byzantine collection has many interesting coins.

I've never had it happen with any of my bids. However, I've seen a few posts, on ancient coin forums, in which 2 members realize, after the auction, that they had bid on the same coin. They always seem to be friendly about it. Often, the losing member congratulates the winning member. Sometimes, the losing member expresses some regret, for driving up the hammer price for the winning member. Sometimes, the winning member expresses some regret, for taking the coin away from the losing member.

I've never seen 2 members battle for a coin, knowing before the hammer, that they were bidding on the same coin. I guess, theoretically, 2 members could agree to not compete for the coin, in some way, in order to reduce the hammer price. However, most members don't advertise that they are going to bid on a particular coin, so as not to generate extra interest in the coin, before the auction. Therefore, these battles between members, seem inevitable. It's just part of the fun.

It's nice to see, that 7 persons, including myself in this post, have posted interesting John VIII coins in this thread : @Valentinian, @ela126, @ValiantKnight, @catadc, @Simon, @voulgaroktonou, and myself in this post. I wonder, if anyone else, will post any John VIII coins in this thread.

By 1448 AD, the Byzantine Empire had survived for 1000 years. The Byzantine Empire had experienced many crushing defeats, but had survived again and again. There were many times, when only the huge Theodosian walls, had saved Constantinople from being taken. However, the Byzantine Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, was heading toward its final defeat.

John VIII was the Byzantine Emperor from 1425 AD to 1448 AD. The following map is a snapshot of the interesting Youtube video "The History of the Byzantine Empire : Every Month". The map shows the Byzantine Empire, near the end of the reign of John VIII in 1448 AD. Compared to the map at the end of the reign of Manuel II in 1425 AD (see my Manuel II post in this thread), the Byzantine Empire lost Thessalonica in 1430 AD to the Ottoman Empire, but gained territory on the Peloponnese peninsula, and gained the city of Athens and the area surrounding Athens. After the fall of Thessalonica in 1430 AD, the Byzantine Empire consisted of 3 territories : the northern territory containing Constantinople, some small islands, and the southern territory of the Peloponnese peninsula and Athens. The northern Byzantine territory was completely surrounded by the Ottoman Empire, but the northern Byzantines still had access to the sea.

Here's my John VIII silver stavraton. It seems to me, that the portraits of Jesus and the Emperor, became increasingly crude, toward the end of the Byzantine Empire. Also, it seems to me, that my coin was minted using a worn die, for the Emperor side of the coin. To me, it looks like, there are signs of cracks and breaks, in the Emperor side die.

John VIII. AR Stavraton. Minted 1425 AD To 1448 AD. Constantinople Mint. Sear 2563. LPC Page 172 Type 1. Maximum Diameter 23.0 mm. Weight 6.76 grams. Obverse : Jesus Christ Bust Facing Front, With Halo. Reverse : John VIII Bust Facing Front, Wearing Crown With Pendilia, With Halo, "IWAN" Greek For "John" In Outer Legend Clockwise Starting At 12 O'Clock.

44 minutes ago, Topcat7 said:

No, I am using a desktop computer, but as you say, when I 'refreshed' the page, it sorted itself out. Thank you.

You're welcome.

1 minute ago, Heliodromus said:

I've never had a problem with a non-US mail system - it's always the USPS, especially going through ISC New York, where the problems happen. Right now I'm waiting for a coin from France that rapidly arrived at ISC NY (US entry point) and has been sitting there "inbound out of customs" (i.e. half handed-off from customs to USPS) without any further scan for over 2 weeks. I expect I'll get it eventually, but who knows. Could arrive randomly tomorrow having bypassed all expected scans, or be returned to sender, or show up two months late, or maybe be sent to some random sorting center then back to NY ... these would all be BAU USPS outcomes.

I'm also waiting for my purchases from the recent Olympia auction ... paid EUR 35 for "FedEx Express" shipping over two weeks ago, and they haven't even shipped them yet...

So, yeah, shipping sucks.

Yes. Back when I used to buy from non-US Vcoins dealers, often a shipment would get stuck in New York for 1 or 2 weeks, and often the tracking would say something like "inbound into US customs", or "your shipment is in US customs".

I live in the US. When I used to order coins from non-US Vcoins dealers, sometimes I could input the foreign shipping company's tracking number, into USPS.com, and it would track the shipment, after the shipment had entered the US. If the shipment had not yet entered the US, then USPS.com would usually say something like "shipment is heading toward the US", if I remember correctly.

P.S. : After I requested a tracking number, the dealer was always polite, and provided a tracking number. Sometimes, the coin had been shipped long ago. Other times, if I remember correctly, perhaps the dealer had not yet shipped the coin, but the dealer shipped the coin soon after receiving my request for a tracking number.

I used to order frequently from non-US Vcoins dealers. If I remember correctly, I would usually wait 2 weeks for a tracking number. At the end of 2 weeks, I would check my PO box. If I had not received a tracking number, and if I had not received the coin at my PO box, then I would usually send an email to the dealer's email address of the form dealer@vcoins.com, and ask if they would provide a tracking number. Note that I and other persons, have had bad luck using the Vcoins internal messaging system. Therefore, I would always send my email directly to the dealer@vcoins email address, which I obtained from the 2 automatic emails from the dealer.

I live in the US. This year, I've only ordered from US Vcoins dealers. Therefore, it may be different for non-US Vcoins dealers. I don't remember. This year, whenever I ordered a coin from Vcoins, I always immediately received an email from an address of the form dealer@vcoins.com, which thanked me for the order, and showed my shipping address. Then, after I paid for the coin via PayPal, which I've always done immediately after I ordered the coin, I always immediately received a 2nd email from an address of the form dealer@vcoins.com, which said that the dealer had received my PayPal payment. Then, after a few hours or a few days, I usually received a 3rd email from an address of the form dealer@vcoins.com, which said that the dealer had shipped the coin, and the email contained the tracking number. However, if I remember correctly, 1 or 2 times this year, perhaps the dealer didn't send me the 3rd email, and I never received a tracking number, and the coin just magically appeared in my PO box.

We are approaching the bitter end of the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine world continues its slow collapse, but the Byzantines still fight to survive. Manuel II was the Byzantine Emperor from 1391 AD to 1425 AD. The following maps are snapshots of the interesting Youtube video "The History of the Byzantine Empire : Every Month". The maps show the Byzantine Empire, near the end of the reign of John V in 1391 AD, and near the end of the reign of Manuel II in 1425 AD. We see that, according to the maps, during the reign of John V, the Byzantine Empire lost almost all of its territory in Greece, and the Byzantine Empire finally lost the city of Philadelphia deep within Asia Minor (see my Andronicus III post in this thread). We see that, according to the maps, during the reign of Manuel II, the Byzantine Empire regained some territory in Greece, and regained some territory on the western coast of the Black Sea.

Here's my Manuel II silver half stavraton.

Manuel II. AR Half Stavraton. Minted 1391 AD To 1425 AD. Constantinople Mint. Sear 2551. Grierson 1517. Maximum Diameter 20.2 mm. Weight 3.68 grams. Obverse : Jesus Christ Bust Facing Front, With Halo. Reverse : Manuel II Bust Facing Front, Wearing Crown With Pendilia, With Halo, "M-A-N-O-V-H-Lambda" Greek For "Manuel" Clockwise Starting At 12 O'Clock.

@LONGINUS I always like seeing your virtual coin trays. I wish I could get my coin trays that clean.

My preferences have changed somewhat, over the years. When I was a child, I collected sets and types, but most of the coins that I acquired, were for sets. Then, when I was still a child, I stopped collecting coins. Then, many years later, as an adult, I started collecting coins again. As an adult, I've been more focused on types, and less focused on sets. Over the years, the number of areas that I collect, has greatly expanded, as I've learned about more and more areas. Nowadays, I collect ancient coins, medieval coins, and modern coins (mostly before 1900 AD), from all over the world. However, as an adult, some of the coins that I've acquired, have become part of sets. My Lincoln cent collection of all dates and mints from 1909 to 2009 is definitely a set, which I started as a child and finished as an adult, to my great satisfaction and nostalgia. My collection of Roman Imperial coins could be called a "set", in a way, because I have 41 Roman Imperial coins which include 31 Roman Emperors and 2 Roman Emperors' wives. My collection of Byzantine coins could be called a "set", in a way, because I have 32 Byzantine coins which include 28 Byzantine Emperors. But, I don't have a goal of collecting every Roman Emperor, or every Byzantine Emperor. I just collect coins that are interesting to me, because of the history and the mystery, which happened to include a large number of Roman Imperial coins and Byzantine coins. This year, I have preferred coins that are less expensive, partly because I have almost all of the coins I ever wanted, and partly because I've decided to spend less money on coins.

Andronicus III was the Byzantine Emperor from 1328 AD to 1341 AD. The following maps are snapshots of the interesting Youtube video "The History of the Byzantine Empire : Every Month". The maps show the Byzantine Empire, at the end of the reign of Andronicus II in 1328 AD, and at the end of the reign of Andronicus III in 1341 AD. We see that, according to the maps, during the reign of Andronicus II, the Byzantine Empire lost most of its remaining territory in Asia Minor, but it still held Nicomedia, and Nicaea, and interestingly, Philadelphia deep in the interior of Asia Minor (compare with the maps in my Michael VIII maps post in this thread). Then, we see that, according to the maps, during the reign of Andronicus III, the Byzantine Empire lost Nicomedia and Nicaea to the Muslim Ottoman Turks, but the Byzantine Empire had a net gain of territory in Greece, and the Byzantine Empire still amazingly held Philadelphia deep within Asia Minor, and a few ports on the western coast of Asia Minor.

Here's my Andronicus III bronze trachy. It's a brockage. A brockage is when a flan is hammered between the dies, and then the coin gets stuck on 1 of the dies, and then the coin makes an imprint on the next flan, when the next flan is hammered. This creates an image on 1 side of the coin, and an indented mirror image on the other side of the coin. On the obverse/brockage side of my coin, one can see part of the Fleur-De-Lis, and perhaps part of Andronicus III's robe. On the reverse side of my coin, Saint Demetrius is completely missing, seemingly because of a weak strike on that part of the coin. NOTE : Ross G. at his web site www.glebecoins.org (an interesting web site) disagrees with the reference books Dumbarton Oaks (DO), Grierson, and Lianta. Ross G. says that, based on hoard data, this coin type was minted during the reign of Andronicus II, with a calculated mint date of circa 1297 AD. Ross G. is our Nvmis Forvms member @Glebe.

Andronicus III. AE Trachy. Minted 1328 AD To 1341 AD. Thessalonica Mint. DO 936. Grierson 1473. Lianta 844. Maximum Diameter 19.7 mm. Weight 1.83 grams. Obverse : Brockage Of Reverse. Reverse : On Left Saint Demetrius 3/4 Length Facing Front With Halo, At Center Staff Surmounted By Large Fleur-De-Lis Held By Saint Demetrius And Andronicus III, On Right Andronicus III 3/4 Length Facing Front, Top Left (Delta-H-M-H?), Top Right (A-N-Delta-Rho?). NOTE : Ross G. at his web site www.glebecoins.org (an interesting web site) disagrees with the reference books Dumbarton Oaks (DO), Grierson, and Lianta. Ross G. says that, based on hoard data, this coin type was minted during the reign of Andronicus II, with a calculated mint date of circa 1297 AD.

To continue my "Monday morning quarterback" analysis. After comparing the coin versus ACsearch examples. Trajan's beard looks like someone carved a bunch of horizontal and vertical lines, in a cross hatch pattern, onto his face. And his mouth looks very wrong. His mouth is slightly open, which seems wrong, and it looks like his mouth is rotting, like a zombie.

I've occasionally wondered, if some of my bronze coins are tooled. I'm certainly not an expert at detecting tooling. Here's a copy of the untooled example which Barry Murphy posted in the Coin Talk thread, followed by @robinjojo's example.

Of course, it's easy for me to pick on the coin, now that Barry Murphy and David Vagi have given their expert, professional opinions that the coin is tooled. My opinion of the coin is prejudiced by knowing that Barry and David have identified it as tooled. Here's my "Monday morning quarterback" opinion of the coin. 1st, the obverse legend is suspicious, because the obverse legend is not circular at all. The obverse legend is very lopsided. The right side of the obverse legend suspiciously follows along the edge of the coin, as if the right side of the legend were tooled along the edge of the coin. In contrast, the obverse legend on the untooled coin, looks relatively circular, which seems like the way it should be. 2nd, at 4 o'clock on the obverse, there is a suspicious line on the inside of the legend, where it seems like coin material may have been removed, in order to carve out the legend. 3rd, on the reverse, on the left figure, the robe below the belt, has suspicious looking crude lines, which look like they may have been carved into the coin.

Long live Ukraine!

Hello @arcadivs. Welcome to Nvmis Forvms.

Your coin is interesting. I collect Byzantine coins, and I have an A2 and an A3. I've never seen anything quite like your coin. As you said, perhaps it's an Islamic imitation or Armenian imitation. Or maybe it's a Crusader imitation of a Byzantine coin, or an official Crusader coin. I don't know. However, there are other Byzantine collectors, who have a lot of Byzantine knowledge : @voulgaroktonou, @Valentinian, @Simon, and @Severus Alexander. Maybe 1 of them knows something about it. Or, maybe 1 of the other Byzantine collectors knows something about it.

I don't have any Michael VIII coins. However, I'll post 2 maps, and some history. In 1258 AD, Theodore II, the Emperor Of Nicaea, died at the age of 36. Theodore II's son John IV became the Emperor Of Nicaea in 1258 AD at the age of 7.  Michael VIII quickly led a coup, in which Michael VIII made himself the guardian of John IV. In 1259 AD, Michael VIII made himself co-Emperor Of Nicaea. Michael VIII's military had a major victory in western Greece in 1259 AD. This victory allowed Michael VIII to focus his military on the conquest of the city of Constantinople, which was still ruled by the Latin Empire, the Crusaders. In 1261 AD, when most of the Latin army and Venetian navy were away from Constantinople attacking a Nicaean island, part of Michael VIII's army sneaked into the city of Constantinople through a secret passage, and attacked the city walls from the inside, and opened a city gate, to allow the rest of Michael VIII's army into the city. After a short battle, Michael VIII's army conquered the city of Constantinople. In 1261 AD, Michael VIII entered the city of Constantinople in triumph, and he was crowned Byzantine Emperor at the Hagia Sophia. The legitimate Emperor Of Nicaea, John IV, was blinded on his birthday at the age of 11, and then imprisoned. Thus, the Laskaris Dynasty of the Empire Of Nicaea ended, and the Palaeologus Dynasty of the resurrected Byzantine Empire began. The following 2 maps are snapshots of the interesting Youtube video "The History of the Byzantine Empire : Every Month". The maps show the Byzantine Empire, near the beginning of the reign of Michael VIII as the Byzantine Emperor in 1261 AD, and near the end of the reign of Michael VIII as the Byzantine Emperor in 1282 AD. We see that, according to the maps, during the reign of Michael VIII, some Byzantine territory was lost in the west and east, and a few small islands were gained. In 565 AD, the Byzantine Empire ruled most of the Mediterranean Sea. Now, in 1282 AD, the Byzantine world has become much smaller, and now the Byzantine Empire only consists of part of Greece and part of western Asia Minor. One wonders, if the Byzantine people's world view became smaller, slowly collapsing as their empire slowly collapsed.

Yes, Tiberius II coins and Maurice Tiberius coins, can be difficult to tell apart. I'm not an expert. Here's what I concluded, for 40 nummi bronze coins, after looking at photos of Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coins and Maurice Tiberius 40 nummi bronze coins, in Sear and Dumbarton Oaks. This is only for 40 nummi bronze coins. I don't know anything about smaller denominations (20 nummi, 10 nummi, 5 nummi, etc).

1. All Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coins seem to have a crown with a cross on top. I have not found any Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coins, which have a crown with a trefoil on top.
2. Maurice Tiberius 40 nummi bronze coins, can have a crown with a cross on top, or a crown with a trefoil on top. 
3. Certain regnal years, are not found on Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coins. Most Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coins, have regnal years 5, 6, 7, and 8. However, some have regnal year 4, shown as II over II, such as Sear 447. Sear 466 seems to be a unique type, in that it is a Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coin, which sometimes has regnal year II. So if a coin, which looks like a Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coin, has regnal year I, or regnal year III, then probably it is a Maurice Tiberius 40 nummi bronze coin. There seem to be no regnal year I, and no regnal year III, for Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coins.
4. Some Tiberius II 40 nummi bronze coins have a lowercase "m" on the reverse, and others have an uppercase "M" on the reverse.
5. Some Maurice Tiberius 40 nummi bronze coins have a lowercase "m" on the reverse, and others have an uppercase "M" on the reverse.
6. The legends on these coins, were often blundered, which sometimes makes it difficult, to tell them apart.

Here are my Tiberius II and Maurice Tiberius 40 nummi bronze coins.

Tiberius II. AE 40 Nummi Follis. Regnal Year 5. Minted 578 AD To 579 AD. Constantinople Mint. Sear 430. Maximum Diameter 36.7 mm. Weight 17.60 grams. Obverse : Tiberius II Bust Facing Front, Holding Mappa And Eagle Tipped Scepter, Cross Above Eagle. Reverse : Large Lower Case "m", Mint "CON", Officina E.

Maurice Tiberius. AE 40 Nummi Follis. Regnal Year 3. Minted 585 AD. Antioch/Theopolis Mint. Sear 532. Maximum Diameter 29.5 mm. Weight 12.79 grams. Obverse : Maurice Tiberius Bust Facing Front, Trefoil On Top Of Crown, Holding Mappa And Eagle Tipped Scepter. Reverse : Large Lower Case "m", Mint "THEUP".

43 minutes ago, SimonW said:

Mike Gasvoda makes this accusation on FB without giving any background. This alone does not speak well of him and CNG. If you are going to publicly discredit someone, the evidence should be made public, too.

Otherwise, malicious tongues might say that he is simply trying to do damage to a competitor.

Perhaps this is true. It seems like, if someone believes that coins were stolen, then it may be better, to handle it in a court of law, where evidence is presented, and a legal conclusion is reached.

Just now, Hesiod said:

It's in "Ancient & Medieval Coins" on facebook, which is private. https://www.facebook.com/groups/ancientnumis/posts/6599156340170620/

Thanks @Hesiod. However, I can't view the Facebook discussion, because I'm not a member of the "Ancient & Medieval Coins" Facebook group. I'm not a member of any Facebook groups, which discuss coins. I don't intend to join any. Perhaps someone could tell me the information, especially any proof, that the coins were stolen.

Can someone provide a link to the Facebook discussion? I've searched Google and Facebook, but I haven't found it, yet.

Also, are there any other relevant links, which provide proof, that the coins were stolen?

EDIT : P.S. : I am not a member of any Facebook groups, which discuss coins. I don't intend to join any. Therefore, perhaps I cannot view the relevant Facebook discussion. Therefore, maybe someone could tell me the information, if I cannot view the Facebook discussion.

17 minutes ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I would postulate that the chipped one of mine is from a provincial mint.  The bottom one is too worn to tell, although the chunky letters might suggest provincial. The flan is also unusual.

Here's the URL to the Forum table, for easy reference: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous Byzantine Class A Folles

The Forum table seems to correspond mostly to DOC numbers.

Sand's might be Forum table #20? 

Interesting. My A2 Jesus coin seems to be either type 3 or type 20. I can't quite tell, how many dots are on the book, even when I hold the coin up to a light, because the book is worn and/or corroded. I found the same table in Grierson's book "Byzantine Coins" page 208. The book says, on pages 205 to 207, that no one knows for sure, what the different decorations mean. The book says, that the decorations may be dates, or they may be mint marks, or they may be something else.

@Nerosmyfavorite68 Those are interesting A2 Jesus coins ("anonymous folles"). The Coin 1 reverse has a 6 ray decoration, and 2 horizontal decorations, at the top and bottom. The Coin 2 reverse has a 4 ray decoration or cross, and 2 horizontal decorations, at the top and bottom. Here's my only A2 Jesus coin ("anonymous follis"). On the reverse of my coin, there is a dot on the bottom, below the inscription.

Basil II. AE 40 Nummi Follis. Minted 976 AD To 1025 AD. Constantinople Mint. Class A2. Sear 1813. Maximum Diameter 31.5 mm. Weight 12.89 grams. Obverse : Jesus Christ With "EMMA" On Left Edge, "NOVHL" On Right Edge, EMMANOVHL Is Latinized Hebrew For "Emmanuel" Meaning "God With Us", "IC XC" On Left And Right, Abbreviation For "IHSUS XRISTUS" Greek For "Jesus Christ". Reverse : "IHSUS XRISTUS BASILEU BASILE" Greek For "Jesus Christ King Of Kings".

The Crusaders, also called the "Latins", ruled the city of Constantinople, and varying amounts of nearby territory, from 1204 AD to 1261 AD. When the Crusaders conquered Constantinople in 1204 AD, the Byzantine Empire split into at least 4 parts : the Latin Empire, the Empire Of Nicaea, the Empire of Thessalonica, and the Empire Of Trebizond. However, it is debatable, whether the Latin Empire should be called "Byzantine". Some persons would also say, that none of the 4 parts should be called "Byzantine", and that the Byzantine Empire ended in 1204 AD. I have not studied this aspect of the Byzantine Empire enough, to know the answer. The following maps are snapshots of the interesting Youtube video titled "Wars of the Byzantine Partition: Every Month". The maps show the 4 (or possibly more) parts of the Byzantine Empire, and some of the nearby empires, at various times. Unfortunately, the Empire Of Trebizond is not shown in its entirety.

Here's my Latin Empire trachy. The coin has been clipped, which is typical.

Latin Empire. Billon Trachy. Minted 1204 AD to 1261 AD. Constantinople Mint. Sear 2035. Maximum Diameter 20.5 mm. Weight 1.15 grams. Obverse : Jesus Christ Full Length Facing Front, Standing On Dais. Reverse : Emperor Full Length Facing Front, Right Hand Holding Labarum, Left Hand Holding Globus Cruciger. The coin has been clipped, which is typical.