Obsessed? Me? I guess you are right.... Sept. Sev. IMP II - VICTOR AVG

[maridvnvm]

One of my main collecting focus areas is the Eastern IMP II series of Septimius Severus. I am not satisfied with collecting these with just a single type and gather examples as and when I can afford them.

I have added a new VICTOR AVG from this issue to my collection and as a result feel the need to impose just the VICTOR AVG types from my collection on you. When doing this I have relised it may be taken as a little obsessive... ho hum... each to their own collecting methodology....

The VICTOR AVG issue is possibly the most prolific type mintes in this issue.

RIC has two entries for VICTOR AVG denarii in this issue

RIC 461a:-

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PERTE AVG IMP II, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICTOR AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

RIC 461b:-

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERET AVG IMP II, laureate head right
Rev:– VICT-O-R AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

RIC 462 is an Aureus (I will unfortunately not be sharing any Aureii)

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP II, laureate head right
Rev:– VICTOR AVG, Victory advancing right, holding a trophy in both hands

Now on to my coins... I value the different legend breaks

RIC 461a:-

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERTE AVG IMP II, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICT-O-R A-VG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm
Weight 2.16g. 18.86mm. 0 degrees

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERTE AVG IMP - II, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICTO-R AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

RIC 461b:-

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERET AVG IMP I - I, laureate head right
Rev:– VICT-O-R AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERET AVG IMP II, laureate head right
Rev:– VICTO-R AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

Double die match

Obv:– L SEP SEV P-ERET AVG IMP I-I, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICT-OR AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERET AVG IMP - II, laureate head right
Rev:– VICTO-R AV-G, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

MY NEW ADDITION

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERET AVG IMP I - I, laureate head right
Rev:– VICTO-R A-VG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

There are other varieties that are not listed in RIC:-

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERET AVG IMP I - I, laureate head right
Rev:– VICT-O (sic) A-VG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

Obv:– L SEPT SEV P-ERTE AVG IMP II, laureate head right
Rev:– VICTO-R AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath in both hands

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PE-RET AVG IMP -II, laureate head right
Rev:– VICT-O-R AVG, Victory walking right, holding wreath in left hand, trophy in right

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PE-RET AVG IMP - II, Laureate head right
Rev:– VIC-T-O-R AVG, Victory walking right, holding wreath in left hand, trophy in right

This example Ex Barry Murphy Collection

Double die match

Anyone else obsessed?

[Al Kowsky]

I'm sorry to read about your obsession, but I guess there are worse things to be obsessed with 🤣. When I was in my 20s I was obsessed with copping a good buzz from strong weed every other day 🙄, fortunately I outgrew it. Anyway, I'm guessing your right facing Victory denarii are scarcer than the left facing ones 🤔? I have one Severus denarius with the same composition as your denarii but the inscriptions are totally different. I think my coin is a very common type from the Rome mint.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

That's an impressive Severus collection.  My only really nice Severus (IIRC) is a 'mint' state Denarius from a 1997 HJB sale.  It's in the vast pile of unphototographed coins.  I also have a very decrepit joint Severus and Albinus provincial AE, my only Albinus to date.

There's probably some Severus provincials in my bulk bag buy of the 1990's.  Fortunately, the provincial bag wasn't misplaced in my move. I hid the As bag too well when I was moving. 

 

[Jims,Coins]

Bought the first three from Ariel House CNG 4-26-95

Silver coin (AR Denarius) minted at Laodicea-ad-Mare during the reign of SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS between 198 - 200 A.D. Obv. L.SEPT.SEV.AVG.IMP.XI.PART.MAX.: laur. hd. r., drapery on l. shoulder. Rev. ANNONAE.AVG.: Annona standing l., r. foot on prow, holding two corn-ears & cornucopia. RSCIII #39. RICIV #123. DVM #9.

Silver coin (AR Denarius) minted at Rome during the reign of SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS between 200 - 201 A.D. Obv. SEVERVS.AVG.PART.MAX.: laur. hd. r. Rev. PROVID.AVGG.: Providentia standing half-left, holding sceptre in r. hand and holding wand over globe at her left side. RCS #1783. RSCIII #586. RICIV #166. DVM #130.

Silver coin (AR Denarius) minted at Rome during the reign of SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS in 202 A.D. Obv. SEVERVS.PIVS.AVG.: laur. hd. r. Rev. VOT.SVSC.DEC.P.M.TR.P.X.COS.III.P.P.: Severus, veiled as a priest, standing half-left, sacrificing out of patera over lighted tripod, holding roll in r. hand (Vota suscepta: refers to the vows undertaken, on the tenth anniversary of the reign in 202 A.D., for another ten years of prosperous rule). RSCIII #786. RICIV #186. DVM #178.

Silver coin (AR Denarius) minted at Rome during the reign of SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS in 201 A.D. Obv. SEVERVS.PIVS.AVG.: laur. hd. r. Rev. PART.MAX.P.M.TR.P.VIIII.: Two captives at foot of trophy. RSCIII #370. RICIV #176.

Silver Coin (AR Denarius) minted during the reign of SEPTIMIUS SEVERUS in 200 A.D. Obv. SEVERVS.AVG.PART.MAX.: Laur. hd. r. Obv. VIRT.AVGG.: Roma standing l., holding Victory, spear and shield. RCS #1796. RSCII #761. RICIV #171a.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Jims,Coins

[Octavius]

 I think you have a wonderful obsession, Maridvnvm, that all of us can certainly empathize with.

[John Conduitt]

Yes when it comes to collecting variants based on legend spacing, that is obsessive 🤣

I only have 4 coins of Severus in total, and none are VICTOR AVG. But like Al Kowsky, I have an approximation.

Septimius Severus Denarius, 210-211Rome. Silver, 2.21g. Head with laurel wreath from right; SEVERVS PIVS AVG BRIT. Victory with palm branch and wreath from right; VICTORIAE BRIT (Victory in Britain) (RIC IV, 332).

[Marsyas Mike]

That's a great collection you got there @maridvnvm - very impressive.  

This isn't an Eastern COS II, but it puzzled me when I got it, and posted it on Coin Talk a long time ago.  Looking it over today, I think it is a die-match to one owned by @dougsmit (and posted on the original Coin Talk thread):  https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-rare-septimius-severus-denarius-from-the-postal-commemoration-society-and-a-trajan-drachm.293894/

Doug says it is not in RIC, and I agree - not in OCRE anyway.  Two that are close:

RIC 29a:  IMP II but Victory l.

RIC 38a:  Victory r. but IMP III.

Here it is (the "IMP II" part is hard to see - but again, because of the die-match to Doug's, I am fairly confident in its attribution):

Septimius Severus       Denarius (194 A.D.) Rome Mint L SEPT SEV PERT AVG [IMP] II, laureate head right / [VICT] AVG TR P II COS II PP, Victory advancing right, holding wreath and palm. Not in RIC (see notes). (2.87 grams / 17 mm)(ex-Postal Commemorative Soc.) eBay July 2014  

Attribution:  Per Doug Smith, "Below is a more clear than average coin reading IMP II and PP.  It was not in Cohen, RD or RIC."  Similar to: 

RIC 29a:  IMP II but Victory l.

RIC 38a:  Victory r. but IMP III.

Obverse/ Reverse Die-Match:   Doug Smith example posted on Coin Talk Apr. 1, 2017.

 Here's mine compared to Doug's: 

Any corrections greatly appreciated.  I am easily boggled!

 

 

 

[Curtis JJ]

Obsession may be a necessary ingredient for specialized collections; and specialized collections benefit us all, since only the obsessed specialist can hope to learn (almost) everything important about even the narrowest slices of coinage.

Therefore, let us all raise a rhyton: "To Obsession!"

My own obsession (or aspiring obsession) is with "barbarians, captives, and enemies" on Roman coins (my "B.C.E. Collection"). I feel especially compelled to try to understand the minute details of the Fallen Horsemen, "trophy tableaux," and related designs. My BCE highlights page illustrates about 80 of my specimens right now, but I have many, many more duplicates and lower-grade examples.

The most minute details keep me up at night: 

Do these captives have a collar and waist harness, connected to their wrists with bindings?
(Only the left coin is mine, the others @Jims,Coins and @Qcumbor.)

 

Are these captives wearing Swabian Knot hairstyles?? (They're Gemanic: the left probably Alemanni, the right Quadi.)

 

Notice also that the left coin (Severus Alexander, Alexandria, Tetradrachm) is an early example of captives in "stress positions." (Forced to crouch with no seat upon which to put their weight, such as the pile of shields that appeared under seated captives on Commodus' denarius.) A variety of such positions became much more common in the 3rd cent.

 

Likewise, with Fallen Horsemen, I'm always trying to figure out which nations/ethnic groups/tribes are being depicted, and whether those were specific to the different mints and possibly to political messages that were important in different geographies or under the different emperors in charge there and then. (A number of books and articles -- as well as interesting CT and FAC posts -- address this topic, but I won't try to discuss them or add the biblio just now.)

(On the FH's, I particularly appreciate the collections of @maridvnvm and @Randygeki and @dougsmit who appear to have been very successfully obsessed with the type, much to the benefit of the rest of us.)

Was the Thessalonica mint's horseman a Western/Germanic "barbarian" or maybe even a Sarmatian?  Thessalonica's typical enemy is short haired and beardless, wearing shirt and trousers, but no hat / headwear. Sometimes Germanic captives were shown that way (on this Probus VICTORIA GERM Antoninianus, for example); but they could be beardless or bearded.

He's depicted like Constantine's Sarmatians (I believe Sarmatia was northward and eastward, on the north of the Black Sea, and at least on the same side of the empire as Thessalonica):

These guys with pointed hats/helmets from Siscia, Arles, Cyzicus, Aquileia (and, I'm sure, other mints) seem to depict "Eastern" foes:

However, oddly, this next one seems to be wearing a Roman-style knee-length tunic not the trousers typically associated with barbarians. (I.e., skirt, not pants, like the Roman spearing him.) For now I'm sticking with a tentative "Eastern" (Persian, Sassanid, et al.):

 

Even more challenging may be the more ambiguous bearded, trousered foes who are often depicted by the Constantinople and Antioch mints.

Sometimes they have helmets, sometimes braids. It's not entirely clear to me how many "types" of enemy they represent or whether any specific groups are even intended. I've seen them described as Sassanid/Persian (most often) or Germanic or simply generic enemies. I have hypotheses, but don't feel I have as much support for them as I'd like:

 

I've got at least dozens more of the fallen horsemen (probably hundreds if you count all the low grade AE3s I've got in bags), and at least a few hundred total of the captives types overall (again, many of these are low grade a AE2s, AE3s, and AE4s, or very worn denarii, or Antoniniani of various degrees of debasement and preservation).

Sometimes it's worth it to have kept all those $3 examples. They don't make a random sample or even a census of types, but once in a while something comes up that they can help me answer (e.g., does the distribution of horseman types vary across the different mints, or between AE2 & AE3/AE4 and/or by emperor -- the FH1, FH2, FH3, and FH4 [?] categories). Being obsessed, it can be almost unthinkable to part with a duplicate, even if the 364th Constantius II AE3 is virtually unidentifiable and was destroyed by the previous owner's electrolysis experiments...

"To Obsession!"

Edited August 22, 2022 by Curtis JJ

[maridvnvm]

I am glad I prompted out some Septimius Severus coins.

@Jims,Coins - your first coin - the Anonna is from Laodicea-ad-Mare and not Rome.

@Marsyas Mike - I have one of those too. Another double die match. Here is my full description.

Obv:- L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP II, laureate head right
Rev:- VICT AVG TR P II COS II P P, Victory walking right, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left
Minted in Rome. A.D. 194
Reference:- BMCRE -. RIC -. RSC 690b (citing Gnecchi Coll., Rome)

Additional information courtesy of Curtis Clay:-
"I know a couple of other specimens too, BM probably has one from me and I may have another in my new collection.

Still very rare and interesting, IMP II generally rare on Rome-mint denarii, a muled obv.-rev. combination because COS II means after 1 Jan. 194, but the medallions prove that Septimius' IMP III must have already been known in Rome by about 25 Dec. 193."

 

BTW my coins above are the IMP II not the COS II series. I couls make another post of COS II Victories..... but there is only so much obsession that you guys can take in a sitting.

 

[LONGINUS]

Great post @maridvnvm ⭐⭐⭐ !

 

I’ve got two Septimius Severus denarii but no Victory.

 

[maridvnvm]

Nice @LONGINUS. FYI the first one is eastern in case you didn't know.

[maridvnvm]

As a follow on to the IMP II post above, the type continues to be used into the eastern IMP VIII issue.

The normal obverse legend for this issue is "L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII"

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICTO-R A-VG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath and palm

This coin is very much in the style of the IMP II issue

The following coin is in a style I feel comes slightly later in the IMP VIII series. It is notable in that the engraver appears to have missed off the palm

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICT-O-R AVG, Victory advancing left, holding wreath (palm missing)

The issue also contains a victory type celebrating specific victories over the Arabs and the Adiabenici. These all seem stylistically more aligned to the IMP II issue.

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head right
Rev:– ARAB ADIABENIC, Victory advancing left holding wreath and palm
Minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 196-197
Reference(s) – C 52 var. BMCRE p 110 var. RIC 466 corr.(RIC 466 (R) is IMP VII but should really be IMP VIII but the reverse type for 466 is incorrectly described as wreath and trophy whereas this type is only known wreath and palm)

Same type but this time with another missing palm

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP VII-I, Laureate head right
Rev:– ARAB ADIABENIC, Victory advancing left holding wreath and palm (R of ARAB corrected over B)

And a missing A at the start if ADIABENIC

Rev:– ARAB DIABENIC (sic), Victory advancing left holding wreath and palm

There is another alternate IMP VIII legend - L SEPT SEVER PERT AVG IMP VIII with SEVER in place of SEV. The victory type that I can share here is again VICTOR AVG but has a very different depiction of Victory

Obv:- L SEPT SEVER P-ERT AVG IMP VII-I, Laureate head right
Rev:- VICTOR AVG, Victoria standing right, left foot on globe?, holding shield with left hand, resting on knee, inscribing with right hand

 

[Marsyas Mike]

18 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

I am glad I prompted out some Septimius Severus coins.

@Jims,Coins - your first coin - the Anonna is from Laodicea-ad-Mare and not Rome.

@Marsyas Mike - I have one of those too. Another double die match. Here is my full description.

Obv:- L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP II, laureate head right
Rev:- VICT AVG TR P II COS II P P, Victory walking right, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left
Minted in Rome. A.D. 194
Reference:- BMCRE -. RIC -. RSC 690b (citing Gnecchi Coll., Rome)

Additional information courtesy of Curtis Clay:-
"I know a couple of other specimens too, BM probably has one from me and I may have another in my new collection.

Still very rare and interesting, IMP II generally rare on Rome-mint denarii, a muled obv.-rev. combination because COS II means after 1 Jan. 194, but the medallions prove that Septimius' IMP III must have already been known in Rome by about 25 Dec. 193."

 

BTW my coins above are the IMP II not the COS II series. I couls make another post of COS II Victories..... but there is only so much obsession that you guys can take in a sitting.

 

Thank you so much for sharing this @maridvnvm - I'm delighted that my coin is now a triple die-match with one owned by you and @dougsmit. 😃 I've incorporated your info into my description (I'm beginning to find there is an art to cramming information onto a 2" x 2" cardboard flip!):

Septimius Severus  Denarius (194 A.D.) Rome Mint L SEPT SEV PERT AVG [IMP] II, laureate head right / [VICT] AVG TR P II COS II PP, Victory advancing right, holding wreath and palm. Not in RIC (see notes). (ex-Postal Commemorative Soc.) (2.87 grams / 17 mm) eBay July 2014  Attribution:  Per Doug Smith, "...not in Cohen, RD or RIC." Per maridvnvm on Nummis Forums, August 21, 2022: BMCRE -; RIC -; RSC 690b (citing Gnecchi Coll., Rome) Similar to:  RIC 29a:  IMP II but Victory l. RIC 38a:  Victory r. but IMP III Obverse/ Reverse Die-Match:  Doug Smith and maridvnvm collections (CT and NF)

Oops on the IMP II / COS II misunderstanding - I still do this sort of thing all the time, IMP, COS, TRP...Roman political titles go a bit blurry for me.  😀

[maridvnvm]

@Marsyas Mike

The IMP II - COS II thing is quite important with these particular coins as the different titles here are used as part of the attribution to the mint. 

RIC and BMCRE attributed the IMP II and IMP VIII issues to Laodicea-ad-Mare. It should be noted that both also have erroneous IMP, IMP I, IMP VI and IMP VII issues that should be re-allocated as these are all mis-readings of IMP II and IMP VIII due to legend breaks, some examples of which I have illustrated above. This part of the reason why legend breaks are so important to me. There is a more current rule of thought that re-attributes the mint to Cappadocia and this is how the BM currently allocates them.

RIC and BMCRE attributed the AVG, COS I, II C, II CO, etc. and COS II to Emesa. Again there is some thinking that this should be Antiochia as Orontem and the BM follows this allocation.

I am far from certain as to the mint names and generally refer to them as Eastern IMP II for example and would use "Laodicea" at a push with the quote marks to illustrate the uncertainty.

I haven't read any published works on this for a while and remain to be convinced.

[Marsyas Mike]

2 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

@Marsyas Mike

The IMP II - COS II thing is quite important with these particular coins as the different titles here are used as part of the attribution to the mint. 

RIC and BMCRE attributed the IMP II and IMP VIII issues to Laodicea-ad-Mare. It should be noted that both also have erroneous IMP, IMP I, IMP VI and IMP VII issues that should be re-allocated as these are all mis-readings of IMP II and IMP VIII due to legend breaks, some examples of which I have illustrated above. This part of the reason why legend breaks are so important to me. There is a more current rule of thought that re-attributes the mint to Cappadocia and this is how the BM currently allocates them.

RIC and BMCRE attributed the AVG, COS I, II C, II CO, etc. and COS II to Emesa. Again there is some thinking that this should be Antiochia as Orontem and the BM follows this allocation.

I am far from certain as to the mint names and generally refer to them as Eastern IMP II for example and would use "Laodicea" at a push with the quote marks to illustrate the uncertainty.

I haven't read any published works on this for a while and remain to be convinced.

I do enjoy these Severan posts - obsessive is fine with me.  But I do have a lot to learn.  

Only one "Eastern" Septimius Severus denarius has ever come my way - it is pretty awful - part of a giant eBay lot where almost everything had a hole (or four holes) in it.  If I am interpreting it correctly, it is a "COS II" (this part of the legend is fairly clear in hand).  Sorry about the lousy photo, but it is kind of a lousy coin - the plugged hole is right above the portrait's forehead:

Septimius Severus       Denarius (194-195 A.D.) Emesa/Uncertain Eastern Mint IMP CAE L SEP [SEV PERT] AVG COS II, laureate head right / VICT[O]R AVG, Victory walking left, holding wreath and palm. RIC 425; RSC 697. (2.67 grams / 15 mm) eBay April 2021 Lot @ $1.24  Condition Notes:  Part of an eBay lot, in which (16) of the silver antoninianii and denarii were holed.  Most had (4) holes at about 3 and 9 o'clock, probably for a bracelet mount.  Some had only (1) hole, as if for suspension.  All holes were plugged, on these, probably by the links being cut off flush. 

 

 

 

 

[maridvnvm]

I agree with you on that one. I have one that is pretty close. The toning on the silver is quite a distraction. It isn't as ugly in hand as it looks.

[Randygeki]

22 hours ago, Curtis JJ said:

 

(On the FH's, I particularly appreciate the collections of @maridvnvm and @Randygeki and @dougsmit who appear to have been very successfully obsessed with the type, much to the benefit of the rest of us.)

Was the Thessalonica mint's horseman a Western/Germanic "barbarian" or maybe even a Sarmatian?  Thessalonica's typical enemy is short haired and beardless, wearing shirt and trousers, but no hat / headwear. Sometimes Germanic captives were shown that way (on this Probus VICTORIA GERM Antoninianus, for example); but they could be beardless or bearded.

He's depicted like Constantine's Sarmatians (I believe Sarmatia was northward and eastward, on the north of the Black Sea, and at least on the same side of the empire as Thessalonica):

These guys with pointed hats/helmets from Siscia, Arles, Cyzicus, Aquileia (and, I'm sure, other mints) seem to depict "Eastern" foes:

However, oddly, this next one seems to be wearing a Roman-style knee-length tunic not the trousers typically associated with barbarians. (I.e., skirt, not pants, like the Roman spearing him.) For now I'm sticking with a tentative "Eastern" (Persian, Sassanid, et al.):

 

Even more challenging may be the more ambiguous bearded, trousered foes who are often depicted by the Constantinople and Antioch mints.

Sometimes they have helmets, sometimes braids. It's not entirely clear to me how many "types" of enemy they represent or whether any specific groups are even intended. I've seen them described as Sassanid/Persian (most often) or Germanic or simply generic enemies. I have hypotheses, but don't feel I have as much support for them as I'd like:

 

I've got at least dozens more of the fallen horsemen (probably hundred if you count all the low grade AE3s I've got in bags), and at least a few hundred total of the captives types overall (again, many of these are low grade a AE2s, AE3s, and AE4s, or very worn denarii, or Antoniniani of various degrees of debasement and preservation).

Sometimes it's worth it to have kept all those $3 examples. They don't make a random sample or even a census of types, but once in a while something comes up that they can help me answer (e.g., does the distribution of horseman types vary across the different mints, or between AE2 & AE3/AE4 and/or by emperor -- the FH1, FH2, FH3, and FH4 [?] categories). Being obsessed, it can be almost unthinkable to part with a duplicate, even if the 364th Constantius II AE3 is virtually unidentifiable and was destroyed by the previous owner's electrolysis experiments...

"To Obsession!"

Just a little obsessed 😉 When I get back to my collection, I'd like to make a galley set

[dougsmit]

I'm no longer chasing die varieties on 'Emesa' denarii.  There are just too many of the common types for someone on my level to accomplish anything.  

 

We might mention that there are a lot of other Victory variations from this mint. Most common are the VICT AVG coins.   I also like the ones with different poses like carrying a trophy which also come in VICT and VICTOR versions. 

 

Also there is the one with two hands on the wreath and with the spelling VICTOR VICT. 

Of course there are more scarce Victories but that is another thread.  

 

[Randygeki]

[Marsyas Mike]

6 hours ago, maridvnvm said:

I agree with you on that one. I have one that is pretty close. The toning on the silver is quite a distraction. It isn't as ugly in hand as it looks.

Thank you for the attribution confirmation!  I appreciate it.  And yours is a lot better than mine - no hole!