Type Immobiliere, The long life of coin designs

[NewStyleKing]

We all know of coins imitated  far from their origin but seem to be required by the regions where they are found.  Phillip Philadelphos tets that went into Julius Caesar's " reign"- the Aulus Gabinius type.  The Thasos Dionysos type the Mariona type, Phillips and Alexanders. The old style tet of Athens. Not just the odd few here and there  but massive quantities.  Some communities were peculiar settling on a imitative coin type and just keeping it long after the original had bit the dust!  They did alter the obverse  but kept the reverse.  The coin below apparently from Petra features a drachm sort of weight  owl on amphora sort of reverse  but with a Roman emperor obverse!  The Roman looks like Octavian/Augustus  and he did settle things around Petra.  The thing is the Athens NewStyle was extinct by then being history c 42 BC. Why did the Arabs copy the Newstyle anyway?  It was an international coin type, but not that international like the old style which the Arabs imitated.  Maybe as with this coin they wanted something that would appeal to a wide audience.  But who would remember an owl/amphora NewStyle extinct some 50 years ago!

Coinage is peculiar!  I think the style of the Roman head is more likely AD not BC!

Ideas and more stuff please!

ARABIA FELIX - HIMYARITES
Type : Denier ou drachme
Date : c. 30 AC. - 14 AD.
Mint name / Town : Arabie, Pétra

 

 

[NewStyleKing]

Look for my short article " copies of the New Style Type"  on acadermia.edu  under John Arnold Nisbet

 

NSK=John

[shanxi]

10 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

But who would remember an owl/amphora NewStyle  extinct some 50 years ago!

There are coins from the same region that date from a time when the New Style was still common. Perhaps they have developed their own "tradition":

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1608355

[NewStyleKing]

On 8/14/2022 at 3:57 AM, shanxi said:

There are coins from the same region that date from a time when the New Style was still common. Perhaps they have developed their own "tradition":

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1608355

Yes That's true but the Pegassi example doesn't appear to be BC also IMHO  so is a NewStyle posthumous imitation of sorts!  Are Arab NewStyles found outside of Arabia?  Don't think so!  Petra, in modern Jordan not a million miles from modern Israel and Seleucid lands ( extinct by then!) was the home of the incense trade which all good religions must have as a communication to the gods!

[shanxi]

11 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

the Pegassi example doesn't appear to be BC

What does the references given by Pegasi say? They must have the dating to 150-100 BC from one of  these, after all.

Here these coins are also dated to the second century BCE.

https://www.academia.edu/36171845/Ancient_Coinage_of_Yemen

[JayAg47]

Here's something I find interesting, this 13th century coin issued by the Pallava kings of Sendamangalam combines the symbols of 2 previous empires!

On the obverse it shows the Chola style standing king, and on the reverse there's humped bull. Now, these chieftains of Sendamangalam were once under the Chola empire, but it's alleged that they came from the original pallava lineage (they might've made it up for recognition, but no evidence of Pallavas exist after the end of 9th century when they were defeated by the Cholas).

Chola stater, 988 AD

Original Pallava dynasty potin unit, circa 630 AD, showing humped bull, their royal emblem. 

[NewStyleKing]

Sadly the short article by Mark Markowitz was very short on substance, if substance there is anywhere?  Maybe the local Arab museums and scholars know but i'll be buggered if anyone else does .  Has anyone else have ideas about imitations in particular?  My imitation NewStyles....why?  Why go to the effort for one or two, (surviving) obverses?  Indeed why heat and fold Old Style Athens tets and not melt and start again?

Nobody seems to be able to speculate!   We need a Curtis Clay!

NSK=John

[NewStyleKing]

Why did CGB.fr say Petra, Petra is in Jordan (been there), when Mark Markowitz doesn't mention it but Yemen?  These pre-Islamic peoples are far more interesting than the last two Abrahamic types.  Even the Jewish people were a quarreling lot that even pissed themselves off!

[NewStyleKing]

1 hour ago, JayAg47 said:

Here's something I find interesting, this 13th century coin issued by the Pallava kings of Sendamangalam combines the symbols of 2 previous empires!

On the obverse it shows the Chola style standing king, and on the reverse there's humped bull. Now, these chieftains of Sendamangalam were once under the Chola empire, but it's alleged that they came from the original pallava lineage (they might've made it up for recognition, but no evidence of Pallavas exist after the end of 9th century when they were defeated by the Cholas).

Chola stater, 988 AD

Original Pallava dynasty potin unit, circa 630 AD, showing humped bull, their royal emblem. 

This is way beyond my competence. Isn't it possible that humped bulls were a common sight, possibly slightly sacred ( as of today in India), a symbol of wealth? So a good subject for a coin?  Maybe the later people were not inventive, or too many different tribes to bother with something new?? Does anyone know or have a speculate?  There is not enough people around who care.  Even in India/Pakistan etc....

[JayAg47]

13 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

This is way beyond my competence. Isn't it possible that humped bulls were a common sight, possibly slightly sacred ( as of today in India), a symbol of wealth? So a good subject for a coin?  Maybe the later people were not inventive, or too many different tribes to bother with something new?? Does anyone know or have a speculate?  There is not enough people around who care.  Even in India/Pakistan etc....

Just my opinion,

While bulls are sacred in India due to them being associated with lord Siva, many Hindu kingdoms have issued coins featuring them, but Tamil kingdoms specifically focused more on projecting their own identity because they mostly fought among themselves, though being Hindus they scarcely issued coins showing religion. (unlike North Indian kingdoms who mostly issued religious themed coins because they had to project with the invading Islamic forces).

Up until 14th century, these Tamil kingdoms issued coins mostly featuring their insignia, and coins featuring Hindu gods only became more common after the Nayaka take over in 16th century. So I'd assume the bull on this coin simply represents their symbol.

Edited August 14, 2022 by JayAg47

[John Conduitt]

8 hours ago, shanxi said:

There are coins from the same region that date from a time when the New Style was still common. Perhaps they have developed their own "tradition"

The Anglo-Saxons copied Roman coins some 200 years after the Western Roman Empire collapsed. They didn't even use coins for most of those 200 years. The memory seems to have been kept alive by imitations made on the Continent, where the last gold of the Roman Empire was copied in ever-degraded styles, establishing a tradition when the originals were long gone. Presumably, copying old Roman coins imparted some of the power of the legendary empire, just as it did when Charles II revived Britannia and the laureate bust.

Pale Gold Phase ‘Two Emperors’ Thrymsa, 645-675Kent. Gold, 13mm, 1.19g. Diademed and draped bust right; pseudo legend around. Two small busts facing; above, Victory with wings enfolding the figures; pellet to each side of Victory’s head (SCBC 767). Ex Jeroen de Wilde.

 

Magnus Maximus Solidus, 383-388Augusta/London. Gold, 21mm, 4.59g, 6h. Rosette-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust of Magnus Maximus right, seen from front; D N MAG MA-XIMVS P F AVG. Magnus Maximus and Theodosius I seated facing on double throne, jointly holding globe between them; half-length figure of Victory above facing between, vertical palm branch under throne; VICTOR-IA AVGG; AVGOB in exergue (RIC IX, 2b; Biaggi 2312 (this coin)). Ex Leo Biaggi de Blasys. NGC #6057866-002.

Edited August 14, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Curtis JJ]

The imitation New Styles (the whole range of imitations) are super interesting, from the Mithradatic ones to these Arabian and others.

Are these Lucullus Sulla ones considered imitative? Thompson didn't seem to describe them that way. I guess the question may have to do with whether Sulla was in control of the city and the treasury at the time they were struck.

 

I have one Philistia, Gaza hemiobol imitating Athens -- old school style:

Next to the full size:

 

This one was described by Roma Numismatics as an Athens Drachm, but at 3.33g (and given the style and fabric) I've always thought it was probably a Gaza imitation:

Attica, Athens AR Drachm (3.33g, 14mm, 2h)), Philistia, Gaza (?) after 454-404 BCE.
Obv: Helmeted head of Athena right / AΘE,
Rev: Owl standing right, head facing; olive sprig and crescent behind; all within incuse square.
Ref: See Gitler and Tal 2006; esp. Gitler & Tal VII.1D (possible var./crescent missing?); or possibly VIII.1D var? Cf. Kroll 10; SNG Copenhagen 41-43.
Prov: Ex-Roma e-16, 74

[NewStyleKing]

Curtiss JJ,  They are now called pseudo-Athenian " NewStyles"  because they have no ethnic!  Just like the Cretan types!  But who doubts that was in the eye of the beholder!  There are 2 distinct types  those with an "A" on the amphora and not!  There are subtleties on the  obverse  but too clever for me! So if the Romans, ( and it was ESG Robinson who unravelled the Monograms [ monograms on NewStyles had been extinct since c139/8 BC , some 50 years earlier], in the 1950's to read, Marcus-Treasurer, a reading that has convinced everyone. The Romans seemingly had not wanted to advertise Athens, hence, maybe  that is why the O demos and other imitative coinage with the AOE ethnic is Mithradatic and not Roman whilst maybe the Cretans couldn't make up their mind! Sulla sent marcus off to get ships and whilst he was away stormed Piraeus  and then Athens itself, all before Marcus came back. Indeed Archaelos, Mithridates' general  sailed away unscathed from the siege of Piraeus!  I'm sure they were meant to be imitative, just enough but not too much.  The  artistry is far better than the contemporary NewStyles of the time, especially Athena's helmet ornaments which look more like those of Herakleion ad Lamon tetradrachms of some 50 + years earlier!

[NewStyleKing]

And not to forget the Antiochos Vll  tetradrachms made for the mercenaries of Ariarathes Vll of Cappadocia  that was somebody's concern recently on Numis Forum!

Cappadocian Tetradrachms in the Name of Antiochus VII, CATHARINE C. LORBER AND ARTHUR HOUGHTON http://www.royalnumismaticsociety.org/NC_Offprints/NC166/NC166_07_Lorber_Houghton_Vesely.pdf (Cited from: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancient-coins-literature-and-sites-available-on-the-web.398788/)

This will do for a start!

 

 

NSK =  John

[NewStyleKing]

 Type immobiliere  for a short while  to fill mercenaries "pockets"

[NewStyleKing]

Another was the "mysterious"  Aesillas macedonian coinage  temp Mithradatic wars and other problems along Macedonian borders!

Aesillas Macedonian Tetradrachm c 80 BC SOLD

Obv: Head of Alexander the Great with horns of Ammon behind Θ mint of Thessillonika MAKEΔONΩN below Rev: AESILLAS ; below Q (Quaestor) Left ;Money Chest ; middle, Club of Hercules, ; right, Quaestor's Chair All surrounded by a wreath Obs 37 Reverse not in plates Bauslaugh group VI c 85 BC 29mm 17.02gm

[NewStyleKing]

Anybody got any thoughts?  What about the Aesillas coinage? Bauslaugh  wrote on the "Silver coinage with the typ[es of Aesillae the Quaestor" in 2000. A great study but NO speculation. He said the coinage was introduced at ?? and then re-introduced as and when needed until  ?? . A little bit of speculation would have gone a long, long way. Why and what for wasn't really tackled. A wasted opportunity in my opinion.

At least, Krenkal, Lorber, Hoover etc did the work on the Antiochos Vll coinage and its Cappadocian copies and who and what and why speculation and the hoards.

Can others add to this?  What have YOU read? What do YOU speculate. Can you torture a coin to speak? It's OK having a coin RIC this and RIC that but that surely is unsatisfying.

I tried it with my ex Selton's coin only to come to the conclusion that the Seltons actually couldn't give a monkeys!  Possession was everything!  The gold Eid Mar sold by Roma, the story it had been in some Aristos collection for years until the time came to sell. Not where and when did they get this ludicrously COMMON coin not at all so RARE that hen's teeth are commonplace in comparison, oh and BTW, they were coin collectors! (Just like the Selton's).

Without speculating and trying to add, a coin is nothing... is a star before or after a figure or expunged here or expunged there has a meaning?  What is that funny thing the emperor wears and why and on what type of coins? You see asking and thinking is not difficult, but what RIC is it is just stamp collecting!

NSK=John

[Curtis JJ]

3 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

Anybody got any thoughts? [...] I tried it with my ex Selton's coin  only to come to the conclusion that the Seltons actually couldn't give a monkeys!  Possession was everything!  [...] [...]  You see  asking and thinking is not difficult, but what RIC is it  is just stamp collecting!

Joh, I'm sure I'm not alone in appreciating your enthusiasm for and expertise about New Styles. But I'm also sure I'm not alone in thinking you're at your least best when you start drifting back into hostility for everything non-New Style. If you mean it as satire, which seems likely, you're spinning off in the direction of insult, as I've seen others point out before. (Especially reviving your campaign against the "Seltons." I'm sure you mean the Saltons and that you know how to spell their name correctly, as you've done in many previous complaints. You should probably be aware there are people here who were friends with or knew them personally, though I'm not one of them.)

I personally am not as interested in RIC as some are, but I respect their interest. I fail to see why it is inherently more valuable to know which New Style symbols were issued in which month and under which sequence of magistrates with partial names, than to know the sequence and location of all the Roman Imperial Coinage. At least the RIC is dealing with sweeping changes throughout all of Western history (and the world). I do appreciate your academia page on New Style coins (I have it bookmarked and have looked at many of the documents) and don't want you to stop, but I cannot imagine why, for example, ConstantineTheGreatCoins.com is somehow inherently less of a contribution? I'm sure many would argue the opposite. 

Returning to the Saltons. They've done a tremendous amount for the field. It wasn't necessarily in the area of New Styles (though it wouldn't surprise me). Mark Salton is responsible for many important publications (a couple dozen articles/books can be easily found in the ANS library catalog as well as texts about the Saltons and their collections). They also donated several important collections to institutions, which have been the subject of considerable amounts of published research. (See also Ursula Kampmann's recent book: The Origins of the German Coin Trade: The Hamburger and Schlessinger Families on Issuu.)

Your upset about them seems related to your larger complaint about provenance (first on CT, then FAC, maybe elsewhere, now here). But, even if it's not something that personally interests you, you should recognize that the previous owners of and authors about the coins -- the history of their publications and collection and exhibitions, etc. -- that literally is the history of numismatic knowledge.

Just as we need "social studies of technology," "history of medicine," and "sociology of science" in order to understand technology, medicine, and science -- to contextualize and judge what we know now, to make policy about the future, to know where our biases are -- it's worth being aware of the intellectual history of numismatics.

And we need people to have a broad range of interests and specialties. That's how every domain of human knowledge works -- science, humanities, technology, law, medicine...

Please don't think I want you to stop being so enthusiastic about New Style coinage or that I don't appreciate the expertise you have to contribute. My only objection is to your open antagonism toward everyone who has a slightly different interest.

EDITED to say: It's also fine that may people collect just for fun. That's nothing to berate them (or "stamp collecting") for.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Curtis JJ

[robinjojo]

Interesting thread and nice coins posted!

Nothing succeeds like success and the Athenian tetradrachm design is a good example, with its widespread imitations.

With the help of some CT members a couple of years ago, this new style owl, which was something of a puzzle for me, was confirmed as a likely imitation.

 Athens new style tetradrachm, Imitation,  circa 150 BC, 17.1 grams.

 

And then there are the Liyhan (Northern Arabia) AE owls of the 2nd-1st centuries BC, with increasingly abstract styles.

Edited August 15, 2022 by robinjojo

[Finn235]

Well, this just happens to be my wheelhouse. I'll try not to get too carried away 😉

Sassanian Shah Peroz I is perhaps best known for losing not one, not two, but three wars while trying to put his Hephthalite Hun "vassals" in their place in the 470s-480s AD. The first two losses ended with him needing to ransom first himself and then his son Kavadh from captivity - both times required multiple "ox carts" full of drachms, probably on the order of 3-5 million coins. 

An unadulterated Peroz I

This influx of coin established his coinage as the de facto "good coin" of the Silk Road for at least a couple centuries, first as the original coins (this one carries multiple Soghdian countermarks, clearly applied after decades of circulation)

As the original tribute payment became lost or too worn for use, the Hephthalites made their own imitations, denoted by the addition of four pellets to the obverse

Later, more crude style

"North Tokharistan" fabric, plastered with countermarks 

Then, sometime in the 6th century, the design was adopted by an unknown polity in India, where it lasted until at least the end of the 13th century.

Initial, early nondescript Peroz imitation from India (Series 0) - Note the lack of pellets; these were imitated directly from official Peroz drachms

These branched out into 3 distinct "tracks" 

Track 1 - The Gadhaiya Paisa (Anepigraphic, attendants quickly schematics, weight and purity maintained the longest)

Also the "Malwa" types - branching off toward the end of Track 1 and outlasting it perhaps a century

Then Track 2 - Branching off early in the series, it replaces the korymbos with the letter "Sa" and then adds the 2-letter legend Sri X, perhaps outlining an as of yet unidentified dynasty. The attendants are preserved with dot dresses all the way until the very end

Early type with Sa

Intermediate type, flower instead of legend

Sri VA

Sri Ha (makes up about 80% of all individual coins in this track)

Then a parallel series, back to Sri VA

Sri Te

Sri Da Ma

Finally, Track 3, attributed tentatively to the Imperial Pratihara dynasty - These branched out from early in Track 2, but place Sri above the crown. The evolution is extremely difficult to work out.

Sri MA

Kalasha (flower pot) in front of bust

Sri Ja?

Sri Vi

Sri Vigra

Srima Adivaraha, minted by Mihira Bhoja I, 836 - 885, preserving the base of the fire altar and attendants from Sri Vi type 

Posthumous type

His grandson, Vinayakapala, 954-5

 

[DonnaML]

6 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

It's OK having a coin RIC this and RIC that but that surely is unsatisfying.  I saw that someone produced a nice graphic on the links of a coins modern provenance, but surely that is Aspergers of the highest order!  If you cannot say anything invent something to say!!

 

That sounds awfully close to a personal attack on "someone." I don't think we allow those here. I completely agree with the points made by @Curtis JJ. Besides, here's a news bulletin for you: the label "Asperger's Syndrome" has been officially retired for some time. It's all just part of the ASD spectrum. And even if it hadn't been retired, I wouldn't recommend using it, ever since Hans Asperger's Nazi past came out. Including strong evidence that he actively cooperated with the T-4 euthanasia program, and may have been a direct participant in it, with respect to children who didn't meet his standards for being sufficiently high-functioning.

Don't even get me started on the "nasty Abrahamic types" comment. Although I freely admit that we Jews have always been a quarrelsome lot.

Edited August 15, 2022 by DonnaML

[NathanB]

6 hours ago, DonnaML said:

That sounds awfully close to a personal attack on "someone." I don't think we allow those here. I completely agree with the points made by @Curtis JJ. Besides, here's a news bulletin for you: the label "Asperger's Syndrome" has been officially retired for some time. It's all just part of the ASD spectrum. And even if it hadn't been retired, I wouldn't recommend using it, ever since Hans Asperger's Nazi past came out. Including strong evidence that he actively cooperated with the T-4 euthanasia program, and may have been a direct participant in it, with respect to children who didn't meet his standards for being sufficiently high-functioning.

Don't even get me started on the "nasty Abrahamic types" comment. Although I freely admit that we Jews have always been a quarrelsome lot.

I thought the thread went off the rails with his original "the Jews" comment, which looks to me like anti-Semitism, though it may be that it was simply very bad writing. But with that hanging over things, there's no point participating now in what should have been a perfectly interesting thread on the longevity and popularity of ancient coin designs.

About Asperger's being a retired term, I didn't know that.  A friend of mine, who is Jewish, told me he had Asperger's many years ago, and he's never revised the name of his condition.  

[DonnaML]

52 minutes ago, NathanB said:

I thought the thread went off the rails with his original "the Jews" comment, which looks to me like anti-Semitism, though it may be that it was simply very bad writing. But with that hanging over things, there's no point participating now in what should have been a perfectly interesting thread on the longevity and popularity of ancient coin designs.

About Asperger's being a retired term, I didn't know that.  A friend of mine, who is Jewish, told me he had Asperger's many years ago, and he's never revised the name of his condition.  

Some people are so used to the term that that's how they think of themselves, and don't feel like using a different one. The change is really more for those who are diagnosed after it was made a few years ago, I think.

I didn't see that comment as specifically antisemitic, by the way. It was anti- all three major religions originating in the Near East! I certainly understand why that's some people's position, but I'm not sure it should be expressed here.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by DonnaML

[Finn235]

Back on topic 🙂

I need to image my Chinese coins; the Wu Zhu I believe is the longest-ever frozen design at about 700 years, with the Ban Liang and Kai Yuan also being up there at about 200 and 300 years (being lazy and not looking up exact dates)

Other frozen designs -

The Gupta successor state, the Maitraka dynasty at Vallabhi first flexed its muscles of independence in ~475 under Bhatarka, and lasted in Gujarat until 776. All Maitraka coins were minted in the name of Bhatarka, although I don't think anyone knows whether they were minted until the dynasty collapsed. They are at any rate the last of the "Indo Greek" drachm that was first introduced under Apollodotus I

Early

Intermediate?

Late?

 

Similarly, I haven't heard this expressed directly, but the coinage of Gupta king Kumaragupta is IMO far too numerous and too varied to all be lifetime issues.

[NewStyleKing]

wow wow wow. Who mentioned JEWS, and in a anti-Semitic way-NEVER?  In ancient times the internal quarrelsomeness was famous.  Didn't the legendary Jesus argue at the temple  and form his own splinter group?  Didn't Saul/Paul  put his own take on the late Jesus's message.   Not me anywhere ever.  Aspergers, well I don't read the latest , but I was confirmed as Aspergers sort of many years ago, so i'll have to get the doc to change his notes!  Yes the tendency is there  and frank!  The search for provenance is another form of stamp collecting. I revel in the fact that most of my NewStyles came via smuggled hoards via eBay. I couldn't form a collection today without being wealthy  and maybe no where as "complete".

No it's my familiar rant about stamp collecting, once identified to the "T" and that's it! 

Sorry if my frustration boils over. It is only a coincidence that the Seltons were Jewish, the Aristo's who owned the Gold Eid Mar  didn't get a mention  even though I doubt their provenance and their apparent lack of knowledge !!