Today's Roma Numismatics E-Sale 100 Auction

[robinjojo]

Anyone have luck with their bids? 

I secured four lots, but I don't want to post images here after what happened to a silver dirham that I posted from E-Sale 98 before it arrived (which it didn't).  So, I will wait for their arrival by DHL.

Overall hammer prices seemed pretty solid, at least for the Greek coins.  There were also several group lots of Byzantine bronze coins, a few of which looked quite interesting.

Edited July 29, 2022 by robinjojo

[El Cazador]

I was really curious about lot #600, but forgot that the auction was taking place this morning, do yiu know by any chance how much that Tetradrachm sold for?

[robinjojo]

As of this evening Roma hasn't posted the hammer prices.  That should happen tomorrow.  That Bactrian tetradrachm of Antimachos I Theos , lot 600, was attracting pretty good bids in the pre-auction.  It's a very attractive example.  I looked at it last night as I was navigating the catalog, and as I recall the bid at that time was in the neighborhood of £1.200 pre "live" auction. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by robinjojo

[El Cazador]

1 hour ago, robinjojo said:

As of this evening Roma hasn't posted the hammer prices.  That should happen tomorrow.  That Bactrian tetradrachm of Antimachos I Theos , lot 600, was attracting pretty good bids in the pre-auction.  It's a very attractive example.  I looked at it last night as I was navigating the catalog, and as I recall the bid at that time was in the neighborhood of £1.200 pre "live" auction. 

Yes, it was attractive, but some folks from FB groups questioned 1. Authenticity 2. Asserted it was extremely harshly cleaned

 

what are your thoughts, @robinjojo?

[NewStyleKing]

Didn't  bid  but Sold this successfully!  Hammerprice £850 so a nice splodge of cash should be soon winging its way into my bank account!  Taking off fees  I will get double what I paid for it some 5 years ago!  And I had the pleasure of owning such a nice coin.  Priceless. 

[Finn235]

Didn't win any of my targets (not that I planned to put out strong bids) but I won a decent number of large lots. Mostly stuff to flip, with maybe a couple keepers. Some of the LRB lots went quite cheap, IMO. Hopefully enough to break even after the keepers and fees, and maybe make a little spending cash.

Also won two lots of standing caliph fals, with one that I think may be a major rarity.

[kirispupis]

FWIW, lot #600 sold for 1700 GBP.

I'm not the best to judge authenticity, but Roma has a pretty strong pipeline for Greco-Baktrian coins, so my suspicion is it's genuine. I could agree with being harshly cleaned, though. The details aren't so great for the polish, particularly on the reverse.

Roma is one of my favorite auctions, but I didn't participate in this one because I've scaled back my auction purchases (for now) to only coins that meet critical needs and I know are tough to come across. So far no auctions have listed any. Things seem a lot slower now compared to this same time last year.

[velarfricative]

Roma certainly sells a lot of fake Baktrian coins, but I don't really see any issues with #600; what were people's suspicions?

Edited July 29, 2022 by velarfricative

[NewStyleKing]

Why don't you tell Roma of your suspicions?

NSLK=John

[Richard Beale]

21 minutes ago, velarfricative said:

Roma certainly sells a lot of fake Baktrian coins, but I don't really see any issues with #600; what were people's suspicions?

Except that we don't. Perhaps you'd like to point out some of the "lot of fake Baktrian coins" that we "certainly sell"?

[velarfricative]

15 minutes ago, Richard Beale said:

Except that we don't. Perhaps you'd like to point out some of the "lot of fake Baktrian coins" that we "certainly sell"?

Ah, I see it got withdrawn; https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5902&lot=632  is a very common fake; common enough to show up 2 e-sales previous where it was also withdrawn https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5803&lot=638. I would like to hear your thoughts on this type, however: https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/en/search?text=yuezhi dynasts

Edited July 29, 2022 by velarfricative

[NewStyleKing]

I'm with Rich Beale here!  Thanks for selling my Antigonus Tetradrachm!

 

NSK=John

[Richard Beale]

7 minutes ago, velarfricative said:

Ah, I see it got withdrawn; https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5902&lot=632  is a very common fake. I would like to hear your thoughts on this type, however: https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/en/search?text=yuezhi dynasts

I have never had reason to doubt the type - handling 5 isolated coins spread out over the space of 3 years is not something that naturally arouses one's suspicions, though I agree it is concerning that they all seem to share the same dies. I also don't like the fabric or appearance of the earlier 2 in particular.

That said, I'd still like to see more evidence to back up your assertion that "Roma certainly sells a lot of fake Baktrian coins". These are 5 lots out of 1590.

[Richard Beale]

4 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said:

I'm with Rich Beale here!  Thanks for selling my Antigonus Tetradrachm!

 

NSK=John

Our pleasure - glad you were pleased with the result!

[velarfricative]

Just now, Richard Beale said:

I have never had reason to doubt the type - handling 5 isolated coins spread out over the space of 3 years is not something that naturally arouses one's suspicions, though I agree it is concerning that they all seem to share the same dies. I also don't like the fabric or appearance of the earlier 2 in particular.

That said, I'd still like to see more evidence to back up your assertion that "Roma certainly sells a lot of fake Baktrian coins". These are 5 lots out of 1590.

Well, I'm not accusing you of deliberately flooding the market with fakes, of course; you handle a huge volume of coins, and on a frequent basis, and it's not exactly possible to look over everything with a fine-tooth comb. I mean "a lot" in a relative sense, the vast majority of your Baktrian coins are certainly authentic, but I have noticed a tendency to attribute coins as imitations when it seems more likely that they are inauthentic. https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5591&lot=482 in recent memory; forgeries of this style from Pantaleon show up often on ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/133984804705?hash=item1f321ddf61 appears to be die-identical ).

[jfp7375]

Didn't get anything at Roma unfortunately. I had my eye on roman republican silver and the ones I liked got pretty pricey (some very much so) unfortunately 😞

Been struggling to find something to buy myself for my birthday - seems a bit dry out there right now. I guess I'll just save up for Artemide in september, but kind of a bummer. 

[Richard Beale]

4 minutes ago, velarfricative said:

Well, I'm not accusing you of deliberately flooding the market with fakes, of course; you handle a huge volume of coins, and on a frequent basis, and it's not exactly possible to look over everything with a fine-tooth comb. I mean "a lot" in a relative sense, the vast majority of your Baktrian coins are certainly authentic, but I have noticed a tendency to attribute coins as imitations when it seems more likely that they are inauthentic. https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=5591&lot=482 in recent memory; forgeries of this style from Pantaleon show up often on ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/133984804705?hash=item1f321ddf61 appears to be die-identical ).

Assuming for a moment that the 5 Yuezhi coins are fake, which is certainly possible I admit, but not yet demonstrated, I don't think anyone could consider 0.3% of Baktrian coins sold "a lot". On the matter of the Pantaleon we'll have to disagree - the appearance, fabric, corrosion patterns and break were such that it did not raise the warning flags that an unbroken, uncorroded example might, so an ancient imitation seemed more likely. It turned out to indeed be a modern concoction of course and the coin was not sold.

[Richard Beale]

15 minutes ago, jfp7375 said:

Didn't get anything at Roma unfortunately. I had my eye on roman republican silver and the ones I liked got pretty pricey (some very much so) unfortunately 😞

Been struggling to find something to buy myself for my birthday - seems a bit dry out there right now. I guess I'll just save up for Artemide in september, but kind of a bummer. 

PM me your name. We'll send you something for your birthday to keep you going. 😉

[velarfricative]

7 minutes ago, Richard Beale said:

Assuming for a moment that the 5 Yuezhi coins are fake, which is certainly possible I admit, but not yet demonstrated, I don't think anyone could consider 0.3% of Baktrian coins sold "a lot". On the matter of the Pantaleon we'll have to disagree - the appearance, fabric, corrosion patterns and break were such that it did not raise the warning flags that an unbroken, uncorroded example might, so an ancient imitation seemed more likely. It turned out to indeed be a modern concoction of course and the coin was not sold.

On the topic of die matches, there is also these: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=imitating+Eagle+series&category=1-2&company=93&lot=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&currency=gbp&order=1 . Attached is a very close example for the Zeus/Eagle one, which to me seems certainly cast. As for the other Athena/Eagle drachms, the style to me seems quite off, and completely unlike any other imitations that I have seen though I would be happy to see a counter-example.

Edited July 29, 2022 by velarfricative

[jfp7375]

19 minutes ago, Richard Beale said:

PM me your name. We'll send you something for your birthday to keep you going. 😉

wow - very generous! I sent you a PM, thanks Richard 

How's that for building customer loyalty??

[Richard Beale]

8 minutes ago, velarfricative said:

On the topic of die matches, there is also these: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=imitating+Eagle+series&category=1-2&company=93&lot=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&currency=gbp&order=1 . Attached is a very close example for the Zeus/Eagle one, which to me seems certainly cast. As for the other Athena/Eagle drachms, the style to me seems quite off, and completely unlike any other imitations that I have seen though I would be happy to see a counter-example.

Be that as it may, in the absence of further information there isn't a concrete reason they should be modern. The surface of your coin may simply be corroded, but it's hard to say from a photo. Ours had no indications of being cast - quite the contrary. I don't intend to prolong this discussion since I actually still have a lot of work to do and have ambitions of at some point being able to go home to my family, but I took exception to your post and pressed you to back up your statement because off the cuff comments like these which have no repercussions to the anonymous poster making them have real world consequences for (in this case over a dozen) other people's livelihoods. We shield the market from a great many fakes every year so this sort of post is quite vexing. If you'd like me to point you in the direction of an auction with truly "a lot" of fakes in it, I'd be happy to oblige for the sake of what you might find to be an amusing (or horrifying) 20 minutes.  

[velarfricative]

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4679&lot=421  All I'll say is, I do feel quite bad for whoever bought this one!

Edited July 29, 2022 by velarfricative

[Severus Alexander]

@velarfricative, I assume you've checked on zeno.ru for matches to the coins you're suspicious of?  The eagle series diobols you linked on acsearch look fine to me, while I agree, the one you attached could certainly be a cast.

Perhaps you'd like to walk back your claim that Roma sells a lot of Baktrian fakes. 😉  Nobody will think the worse of you for it!  Personally I have great confidence in them.  As Richard notes, it's impossible for every fake to be caught before it enters the catalogue, particularly in a difficult area like imitations of Baktrian coinage. I would add that Roma is really good about withdrawing coins that prove questionable, and also making good on any errors.  Way to go, @Richard Beale, you rock! 🙂 

It so happens that the only (modest) coins I happen to have won in Roma 100 were Baktrian or Baktrian imitations.  Here they are:

While the last one, lot 541, is ID'd as coming from the official mint, I believe it is in fact an imitation.  I have a later coin based on these earlier Antiochos horse-head imitations and I wanted to build a bit of a series, but at low cost.  Happy to have done so!  Here's the later one (also purchased from Roma, but a long time ago):

Edited July 29, 2022 by Severus Alexander

[Severus Alexander]

@velarfricative, please be a bit more circumspect about your claims unless you have very good evidence.  There are lots of examples of Hunnic coins struck with rusty dies, so the match you point to here is far from definitive.

[Richard Beale]

3 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

@velarfricative, please be a bit more circumspect about your claims unless you have very good evidence.  There are lots of examples of Hunnic coins struck with rusty dies, so the match you point to here is far from definitive.

To be fair, this is indeed a straight up clone! The planchet shape, centring etc are all the same. But now we're into Hunnic tribes. We'll contact that buyer.

8 minutes ago, velarfricative said:

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4679&lot=421  All I'll say is, I do feel quite bad for whoever bought this one!