Today's Roma Numismatics E-Sale 100 Auction

[velarfricative]

20 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

@velarfricative, please be a bit more circumspect about your claims unless you have very good evidence.  There are lots of examples of Hunnic coins struck with rusty dies, so the match you point to here is far from definitive.

I appreciate the snide remarks, but I don't think I will. My only hope is to make sure that forgeries can be kept out of Baktria; the current state of the field is such that widely-known forgeries are in recent, modern catalogs. If you'd care to be a little more careful in reading the discussion, I was the one who pointed out the difficulty of weeding out Baktrian forgeries.

Edited July 29, 2022 by velarfricative

[velarfricative]

9 minutes ago, Richard Beale said:

To be fair, this is indeed a straight up clone! The planchet shape, centring etc are all the same. But now we're into Hunnic tribes. We'll contact that buyer.

 

Hunnic tribes are a worthy area to get into; I don't mean to be prickly about Baktrian coins, and Roma is generally quite good (I saw some very nice Hunnic coins in the last sale, in fact, that were quite fantastic). It just gets frustrating seeing a lack of attention in the area (not necessarily referring to you, just among numismatists in general). By and large Roma does a fine job, certainly far above the average for how Baktrian is handled.

Edited July 29, 2022 by velarfricative

[Curtisimo]

I won two lots and I am pretty excited about one in particular. I will wait till it arrives to post it so I don’t upset the postal gods. It’s been a while since I won a lot from Roma. Here are a few Roma wins from previous sales.

And of course this one is ex Roma II from 2011.

Edit to add: I’ve never been unhappy with a Roma purchase and I suspect, based on what I have heard from others, that they would be good to work with if a problem did emerge.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Curtisimo

[velarfricative]

Tangentially, since hopefully this thread has visibility, here is a dangerous forgery I would like to kill: a die-struck forgery of Vima Kadphises made with transfer dies. Attached is also an example of where the dies of the mother coin cut off. Sold at many auction houses; not Roma, though! Good job keeping it out.

[kirispupis]

FWIW, here's my Baktrian coin from Roma. I honestly thought I wouldn't have a chance at a Diodotos I tet, so I was thrilled to win it. I don't collect Baktrian per se, but I am after the earliest possible coin for each of the post-Alexandrian kingdoms.

I also have to admit that I'm very thrilled with Roma lately. You see, I was wonderfully excited to win and receive 11 coins in their E-Sale 98, but my wife was less thrilled about the matter. It was then that I resolved to only go after tough-to-find coins within my collection parameters. The theory was that I wouldn't pursue much until October-ish, but that plan was most threatened by Roma - since of all the auctions they're the most likely to list coins I want.

Therefore, I cannot be more pleased that they didn't do so in E-Sales 99 and 100, and, since I don't collect Medieval & World, nor can I afford anything in Auction XXV, I may actually be able to last until October. 🙂 

 

 

[Restitutor]

I think we can all agree that fakes are a pain in the butt in practically every category someone could be a hobbyist/collector in, from numismatics, to art, to even LEGO! How a seller handles fakes unwittingly coming their way tells us a lot about the sellers ethics. While I don't presume to speak for everyone, I would challenge anyone to disagree with the statement that Roma handles these very, very rare situations with professionalism, integrity, and transparency, and that's as much as anyone could ask for in these scenarios!

On the topic at hand, sadly I did not win anything in the auction! Although perhaps it was for the best, as the lot I really wanted probably would have ended my marriage had I tried to get the high bid once my partner saw the credit card statement!! 🤣

 

[Severus Alexander]

1 hour ago, Richard Beale said:

To be fair, this is indeed a straight up clone! The planchet shape, centring etc are all the same. But now we're into Hunnic tribes. We'll contact that buyer.

In my urgency to come to your defense, @Richard Beale, I clearly didn't look closely enough. 😆 (Apologies, @velarfricative.)  But of course you're contacting the buyer, as you would!  Still no evidence that there's any sort of trend here. 👍 And I really appreciate the change in tone above, @velarfricative... we really want to keep NumisForums a friendly, welcoming place!  

I should maybe note that, being Canadian, I'm maybe too quick to suppose that someone isn't being polite enough. 😆

Edited July 29, 2022 by Severus Alexander

[robinjojo]

15 hours ago, El Cazador said:

Yes, it was attractive, but some folks from FB groups questioned 1. Authenticity 2. Asserted it was extremely harshly cleaned

 

what are your thoughts, @robinjojo?

I've noticed over the past few Roma auctions that this type of Antimachos I Theos tetradrachm has appeared several times, in varying condition.  That suggests to me that a hoard of these and probably other contemporary Bactrian coins has been entering the market.  I don't think this is a collection, since there is no reference as such in the lot descriptions, something that Roma does when such is the case.  It could be that someone is consigning these coins to Roma, and possibly elsewhere to disseminate this hoard, that might have come out of Afghanistan or the region recently.  This is purely speculation on my part. 

Now, getting back to lot 600, that coin is certainly a magnificent example.  I cannot speak to any stylistic deviations that might suggest that it is a fake.  I am just not that familiar with the series, collecting only by type and a sporadic basis.  I did upload the image into Photoshop, which allows me to magnify the coin to a high level.  Fortunately Roma's images are decent enough to allow for this.

The surfaces are somewhat rough.  This roughness seems to be limited to the fields, and upon very close examination the surface has countless raised points of metal.  If the roughness was due to corrosion I think the roughness would be in the form of countless pits in the surfaces.  Therefore I think the roughness for this coin is due to rusted dies for both sides.  The devices seem to be free of die rust.  I have owls with this condition, where the rust appears in the fields, especially adjacent to the devices.  Sometimes die rust also appears in the devices; it all depends on how long the dies were used while they rusted.  So, the rust spots, having worked into the dies' surfaces, would appear raised when the coin was being struck.  That's my guess.  So I think this coin is legit, but specialists in Bactrian coinage might have more informed opinions.

The coin's been cleaned as well, but not harshly as far as I can see in the image from Roma.  I don't see any tooling marks or scratches that are often the signs of over zealous cleaning.

The hammer price for this coin was £1,700 plus 20% buyer's commission, or around $2,468 with the commission.  I guess that's a fair price for a high grade example of this rare coin.  

As I mentioned other tetradrachms of this type have been appearing in Roma's auction.  This has presented collectors a good opportunity to acquire a rare coin.  Some of the coins offered are very high grade, while others clearly show signs of burial and corrosion to varying degree.  The corrosion can result into over a one gram or over in weight loss.

My very humble example didn't even attract any bids in Sale 96.  It's a true ugly duckling, corroded and harshly cleaned in spots.  I ended up buying it for £223.20.  This particular coin is from the Professor Shir Mohammad Collection and it weighs 16.06 grams, a rough but honest coin.

Bactria, Antimachos I Theos, AR Tetradrachm, circa180-170 BC.

Mitchiner 124b.

[El Cazador]

5 minutes ago, robinjojo said:

I've noticed over the past few Roma auctions that this type of Antimachos I Theos tetradrachm has appeared several times, in varying condition.  That suggests to me that a hoard of these and probably other contemporary Bactrian coins has been entering the market.  I don't think this is a collection, since there is no reference as such in the lot descriptions, something that Roma does when such is the case.  It could be that someone is consigning these coins to Roma, and possibly elsewhere to disseminate this hoard, that might have come out of Afghanistan or the region recently.  This is purely speculation on my part. 

Now, getting back to lot 600, that coin is certainly a magnificent example.  I cannot speak to any stylistic deviations that might suggest that it is a fake.  I am just not that familiar with the series, collecting only by type and a sporadic basis.  I did upload the image into Photoshop, which allows me to magnify the coin to a high level.  Fortunately Roma's images are decent enough to allow for this.

The surfaces are somewhat rough.  This roughness seems to be limited to the fields, and upon very close examination the surface has countless raised points of metal.  If the roughness was due to corrosion I think the roughness would be in the form of countless pits in the surfaces.  Therefore I think the roughness for this coin is due to rusted dies for both sides.  The devices seem to be free of die rust.  I have owls with this condition, where the rust appears in the fields, especially adjacent to the devices.  Sometimes die rust also appears in the devices; it all depends on how long the dies were used while they rusted.  So, the rust spots, having worked into the dies' surfaces, would appear raised when the coin was being struck.  That's my guess.  So I think this coin is legit, but specialists in Bactrian coinage might have more informed opinions.

The coin's been cleaned as well, but not harshly as far as I can see in the image from Roma.  I don't see any tooling marks or scratches that are often the signs of over zealous cleaning.

The hammer price for this coin was £1,700 plus 20% buyer's commission, or around $2,468 with the commission.  I guess that's a fair price for a high grade example of this rare coin.  

As I mentioned other tetradrachms of this type have been appearing in Roma's auction.  This has presented collectors a good opportunity to acquire a rare coin.  Some of the coins offered are very high grade, while others clearly show signs of burial and corrosion to varying degree.  The corrosion can result into over a one gram or over in weight loss.

My very humble example didn't even attract any bids in Sale 96.  It's a true ugly duckling, corroded and harshly cleaned in spots.  I ended up buying it for £223.20.  This particular coin is from the Professor Shir Mohammad Collection and it weighs 16.06 grams, a rough but honest coin.

Bactria, Antimachos I Theos, AR Tetradrachm, circa180-170 BC.

Mitchiner 124b.

@robinjojo- absolutely fantastic writeup, thank you for sharing your opinion here, I truly appreciate this! 🙏🙏🙏

[robinjojo]

3 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

@velarfricative, I assume you've checked on zeno.ru for matches to the coins you're suspicious of?  The eagle series diobols you linked on acsearch look fine to me, while I agree, the one you attached could certainly be a cast.

Perhaps you'd like to walk back your claim that Roma sells a lot of Baktrian fakes. 😉  Nobody will think the worse of you for it!  Personally I have great confidence in them.  As Richard notes, it's impossible for every fake to be caught before it enters the catalogue, particularly in a difficult area like imitations of Baktrian coinage. I would add that Roma is really good about withdrawing coins that prove questionable, and also making good on any errors.  Way to go, @Richard Beale, you rock! 🙂 

It so happens that the only (modest) coins I happen to have won in Roma 100 were Baktrian or Baktrian imitations.  Here they are:

While the last one, lot 541, is ID'd as coming from the official mint, I believe it is in fact an imitation.  I have a later coin based on these earlier Antiochos horse-head imitations and I wanted to build a bit of a series, but at low cost.  Happy to have done so!  Here's the later one (also purchased from Roma, but a long time ago):

I love the reverse of the coin for lot 541!

[NathanB]

8 hours ago, velarfricative said:

I appreciate the snide remarks...

@velarfricative, I think you've done the board a service by pointing out the various fakes that you have.  And you were right about this specific coin that Severus Alexander and you were discussing.  But you are very wrong in interpreting his remarks as "snide."  Severus Alexander is a very--well, I mean this in only the best of ways--old-fashioned--poster here.  He's gentlemanly, classy, supportive, and he has a good sense of humour.  There was no humour or snideness in his remarks to you, which I interpreted as a direct and civil plea for care when making sweeping generalizations about auction houses.  I think the message you received was not a message that he was sending.

All the best,

N.

[Severus Alexander]

Thanks @NathanB... yes, there was no snideness intended. 🇨🇦

But... you callin' me old?!?

😆

[Medoraman]

8 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

@velarfricative, I assume you've checked on zeno.ru for matches to the coins you're suspicious of?  The eagle series diobols you linked on acsearch look fine to me, while I agree, the one you attached could certainly be a cast.

Perhaps you'd like to walk back your claim that Roma sells a lot of Baktrian fakes. 😉  Nobody will think the worse of you for it!  Personally I have great confidence in them.  As Richard notes, it's impossible for every fake to be caught before it enters the catalogue, particularly in a difficult area like imitations of Baktrian coinage. I would add that Roma is really good about withdrawing coins that prove questionable, and also making good on any errors.  Way to go, @Richard Beale, you rock! 🙂 

It so happens that the only (modest) coins I happen to have won in Roma 100 were Baktrian or Baktrian imitations.  Here they are:

While the last one, lot 541, is ID'd as coming from the official mint, I believe it is in fact an imitation.  I have a later coin based on these earlier Antiochos horse-head imitations and I wanted to build a bit of a series, but at low cost.  Happy to have done so!  Here's the later one (also purchased from Roma, but a long time ago):

Congratulations on the Ai Khanoum pieces. I would have lusted after them, (I did buy an extremely nice early contemporary derivative piece a few years ago from Roma), but was able to first buy a nice one, then a group lot of decent ones from Album a while ago. They are very important pieces, both from an important mint but also as prototypes for dominant Samarkand coinage later.

Roma is my go to source for coinage of this era/area, and have nothing but good things to say about them there. Unfortunately I just got back tonight from the big summer vacation with the family. 😞

[Medoraman]

8 hours ago, velarfricative said:

Hunnic tribes are a worthy area to get into; I don't mean to be prickly about Baktrian coins, and Roma is generally quite good (I saw some very nice Hunnic coins in the last sale, in fact, that were quite fantastic). It just gets frustrating seeing a lack of attention in the area (not necessarily referring to you, just among numismatists in general). By and large Roma does a fine job, certainly far above the average for how Baktrian is handled.

Shhh man, quit advertising them. Geez, keep this on the downlow and maybe we can keep this area to ourselves and just a few others!

Seriously, it's a fascinating area. Not a lot of material on the market, though, for anything other than a few common issues. I am only somewhat tongue in cheek about keeping it quiet. Not much material, just a little more interest and prices would skyrocket 

[Severus Alexander]

5 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I love the reverse of the coin for lot 541!

28 minutes ago, Medoraman said:

Congratulations on the Ai Khanoum pieces. I would have lusted after them, (I did buy an extremely nice early contemporary derivative piece a few years ago from Roma), but was able to first buy a nice one, then a group lot of decent ones from Album a while ago. They are very important pieces, both from an important mint but also as prototypes for dominant Samarkand coinage later.

Thanks, guys!  (Would love to see those, @Medoraman... when you get a chance, pop 'em in the thread!  Do you agree that lot 541 is an imitation?)

I just put together a tentative sequence, starting with an official Antiochos I Aï Khanoum and then going through a few hundred years of Samarqand imitations, using images of my two imitations plus a selection from zeno.ru.  The size stays relatively constant, decreasing to 14mm at the end of the sequence, but the weights gradually drop.  The distinct "outlined" style on the third coin (one of my Roma wins) links the earliest imitations to the middle ones which feature an outlined style.  The outlines then disappear later on.

This may simplify things overly much.  There's a slightly different and more complex arrangement where the sequence branches, through an outlined style and a non-outlined style; in which case the fourth and fifth coins should probably exchange places (note the weights).  But you get the basic idea!

I think this is a fascinating series, which is why I bought the Roma coins I did.  I now have a Seleukos I horned horse, an official Antiochos drachm (albeit a rather beat up one! but I'm not complaining at 35 quid), and a Yuezhi-or-related late intermediate stage.  Now I'd just like to pick up one of the uniface horses at the end of the sequence, and maybe a bonus coin: one smack in the middle of the sequence with a head still modelled after Antiochos.  (But that one may be tricky to get.)

 

[Egry]

I lost out on that absolutely perfect Roman silver ring:(

Edited July 30, 2022 by Egry

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Here is one I noticed

 

Savoca Live Auction 10, lot 820. 22 mm, 3.23 grams

Roma Numismatics E-sale 32, lot 1178. 25 mm, 3.63 grams.

Ebay, early 2022. No weight listed

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Roma E-sale 21, 972. 19 mm, 1.36 grams.

Roma E-sale 90, lot 1531. 20 mm, 1.52 grams.

CNG Auction 96, lot 1027. 20 mm, 1.75 grams.

Biga Online Auction 9, lot 810. 18mm, 1.2 grams.

Biga Online Auction 9, lot 811. 19 mm, 1.3 grams.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Roma Esale 21, lot 971. 19 mm, 2.10 grams.

Gorney and Mosch Auction 233, lot 2911. 1.53 grams.

CNG Triton XXIV, 1203. 21 mm, 1.59 grams.

NAC 92, 1086. 1.30 grams.

Harlan J Berk Bid or Buy Sale 210, lot 250. 2.04 grams.

Saint Paul Antiques auction 14, lot 665. 20 mm, 1.13 grams.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Papillion Auction 5, lot 780. 20 mm, 1.55 grams

Roma E-sale 90, lot 1532. 20 mm, 1.94 grams.

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Shall I go on?

[Severus Alexander]

3 hours ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said:

Shall I go on?

Please do!  But maybe in a dedicated thread in the Byzantine category.  (And maybe without the huge meme dude every time. 😆)  These late Byzantine silver issues are a minefield of fakes and it would be great to have a go-to thread to record them.  (I didn't know Triton had been a victim!  I take it the NAC is the source coin for that one - I like how the deposit on that coin has shown up as a "metal flaw" on the cast.)  These things really are a scourge, I wish the culprits could be identified and... well, I won't say what I think ought to be done to them!! 😈)

I'm just scared that my John V & VI tornese might show up. 😬 Although the fabric is somewhat different from the quite typical ones you list above, and no experts who've seen it have condemned the coin.

Still, I worry, just because of that minefield...

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

7 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

Please do!  But maybe in a dedicated thread in the Byzantine category.  (And maybe without the huge meme dude every time. 😆)  These late Byzantine silver issues are a minefield of fakes and it would be great to have a go-to thread to record them.  (I didn't know Triton had been a victim!  I take it the NAC is the source coin for that one - I like how the deposit on that coin has shown up as a "metal flaw" on the cast.)  These things really are a scourge, I wish the culprits could be identified and... well, I won't say what I think ought to be done to them!! 😈)

I'm just scared that my John V & VI tornese might show up. 😬 Although the fabric is somewhat different from the quite typical ones you list above, and no experts who've seen it have condemned the coin.

Still, I worry, just because of that minefield...

I haven’t looked into this type yet but I can.

As for my site, I am getting it ready. I should have everything up again with descriptions and arguments come this fall

 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

7 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

Please do!  But maybe in a dedicated thread in the Byzantine category.  (And maybe without the huge meme dude every time. 😆)  These late Byzantine silver issues are a minefield of fakes and it would be great to have a go-to thread to record them.  (I didn't know Triton had been a victim!  I take it the NAC is the source coin for that one - I like how the deposit on that coin has shown up as a "metal flaw" on the cast.)  These things really are a scourge, I wish the culprits could be identified and... well, I won't say what I think ought to be done to them!! 😈)

I'm just scared that my John V & VI tornese might show up. 😬 Although the fabric is somewhat different from the quite typical ones you list above, and no experts who've seen it have condemned the coin.

Still, I worry, just because of that minefield...

Though I will add torneses are faked less due their extremely low weight and thin nature. Not that they don’t get faked, but the basilikon is a much easier target for forgers