The Dioscuri Collection

[Phil Davis]

4 hours ago, Coinmaster said:

The auction prices were truly absurd, often ranging from 3 to 10 times the regular market value in my opinion. 

To persuasively make this argument, you'll need to show recent examples of truly comparable coins--not nice coins that are almost as good--selling for small fractions of the Dioscuri prices. I don't think you can do that.

 

[jdmKY]

3 wins out of 11 targets. These are NAC’s photos 

[Qcumbor]

You guys amaze me. I've thrown three bids in and was blasted out on them all. I guess participating was more a testimony on my part (being able to tell my great grand children "I was there" ! 😄 )

The one I really regret is that fabulous portrait of Julia Soemias. Congrats to the winner, I've yet to see another of this Empress that nice :

 

It would have paired nicely with my own Julia Maesa example (I bet they were from the same engraver)

 

Q

Edited May 8 by Qcumbor

[Salomons Cat]

8 hours ago, Qcumbor said:

You guys amaze me. I've thrown three bids in and was blasted out on them all. I guess participating was more a testimony on my part (being able to tell my great grand children "I was there" ! 😄 )

The one I really regret is that fabulous portrait of Julia Soemias. Congrats to the winner, I've yet to see another that nice of that Empress :

 

It would have paired nicely with my own Julia Maesa example (I bet they were from the same engraver)

 

Q

Same!!
This Julia Soaemias denarius was the only coin from this collection that I had on my watchlist. I assume that it's the best portrait of hers on a denarius that exists.
But it was clear that the hammer price would be 2000$+, since it hammered for $1100 in 2017 (Aureo&Calico) and $1579 in 2012 (Aureo&Calico).

I would have considered it for a price between $1000-2000, including fees. But I had to tell myself that it's "only" Julia Soaemias - she's not Julius Caesar or Octavian...

I bought this coin instead, just before the auction ended. At $140, the price was about 5% of the Julia Soaemias denarius from the Dioscuri Collection. And I'm very happy with it.

Edited May 8 by Salomons Cat

[Barnaba6]

6 hours ago, Coinmaster said:

The auction prices were truly absurd, often ranging from 3 to 10 times the regular market value in my opinion. The auction room seemed to be filled with millionaires, bidding against each other with gusto, which was bizarre.

I totally agree. Of course who are we to forbid rich and knowledgable collectors from spending fortunes on truly beautiful coins. Congrats to all succesful bidders, great coins indeed! But to maintain that the prices were mostly only "solid" and not - in many, many cases -  extremely high, is such an understatement!    

[CPK]

7 hours ago, Coinmaster said:

The auction prices were truly absurd, often ranging from 3 to 10 times the regular market value in my opinion. The auction room seemed to be filled with millionaires, bidding against each other with gusto, which was bizarre.

Why bizarre? With an auction like that, I'd be surprised if the majority of bidders weren't millionaires. Unfortunate, perhaps, for those of us who don't have such wealth, but hardly unexpected!

[Salomons Cat]

On 5/8/2024 at 2:25 PM, Phil Davis said:

coins that are almost as good--selling for small fractions of the Dioscuri prices

This is exactly my hunting ground 😁 A few examples caught my eye since I recently bought coins that are similar.

 

Dioscuri: $5'500 (hammer price excl. fees):

Mine: $1200 in retail, this year:

 

Dioscuri:  $6055 (hammer price excl. fees):

 

Mine: $280 (hammer price excl. fees, last year):

 

Dioscuri: $4400 (hammer price excl. fees):

Mine: $575 (hammer price excl. fees, last year):

 

I cannot disagree with the people who say that some of the coins were overpriced. But certainly not all of them.

Edited May 10 by Salomons Cat

[Qcumbor]

I'm with you @Salomons Cat. I can live with "almost as good" too and also understand people with more wealth have the desire to acquiring the utmost quality whatever the price. I won't complain since I'm happy with what I get, and will never reach that league during my lifetime 🙂 

A few examples of what I can live with, even though I appreciate the differences and the huge gap in price they entail

Dioscuri :

 

Mine :

 

Dioscuri :

 

Mine :

 

Dioscuri :

 

Mine :

 

And some others 

Q

[Salomons Cat]

@Qcumbor, of course I don't post here for likes; actually I don't care about that.
But I wonder: Why did you get so many of them and I didn't?
I think that our posts were not fundamentally different... I tried making my post a bit more readable by changing the images and removing the quotes.
Or is it seen as "impolite" to post prices? 🤔

[Phil Davis]

2 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

@Qcumbor, of course I don't post here for likes; actually I don't care about that.
But I wonder: Why did you get so many of them and I didn't?
I think that our posts were not fundamentally different... I tried making my post a bit more readable by changing the images and removing the quotes.
Or is it seen as "impolite" to post prices? 🤔

One possible explanation: at least when I read the posts on my phone, Q's post showed both his coin and the more expensive comp, but yours showed only the comp. My phone may just have been slow loading your coins, but if indeed you added them a bit later, that might be an explanation. For sure, speaking for myself, it really is the reason Q got a heart from me and you had to "settle" for a garden-variety "like," lol. His struck me as a more complete post; if others also saw only the expensive coins and not yours, it may have struck them the same way.

While I have both of your attention, @Qcumborand @Salomons Cat, I hope neither of you think I "disagree" somehow with your approach to collecting. Au contraire, I think it makes all the sense in the world. I can't turn back at this point, but I do sometimes think my collecting style is nuts. Wearing my dealer hat for just a moment, when I've had occasion to talk to a new collector, I've suggested they do exactly as you both do: choose high grade and attractive coins, essentially problem free, but just a bit off center or something, maybe a partially weak (but readible!) legend, something that brings down the price multiples or even an order of magnitude.

And, full disclosure, lol, the Lucretia kid on his faithful dolphin from Dioscuri cited upthread is now mine. It was indeed very pricey! In my "defense," I'm sure I've examined hundreds of these over the years and I can honestly say I've never been even tempted by another example. I was the underbidder to the Dioscuri collector in Alba Longa and I  just didn't care to lose it again! Not getting any younger and all that... Was that "absurd," as some here seem to think? Patently, not to me, and while I must have some financial resources or I couldn't do this at all, I promise I'm a long long way from uber-wealthy.

Edited May 8 by Phil Davis

[DonnaML]

2 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

@Qcumbor, of course I don't post here for likes; actually I don't care about that.
But I wonder: Why did you get so many of them and I didn't?
I think that our posts were not fundamentally different... I tried making my post a bit more readable by changing the images and removing the quotes.
Or is it seen as "impolite" to post prices? 🤔

I just gave your post a heart, @Salomons Cat! I didn't see it earlier. 

Edited May 8 by DonnaML

[traveler]

9 hours ago, CPK said:

Why bizarre? With an auction like that, I'd be surprised if the majority of bidders weren't millionaires. Unfortunate, perhaps, for those of us who don't have such wealth, but hardly unexpected!

Many years ago I (unexpectedly) won a lot in an NAC auction. It was an imperatorial denarius of Marcus Antonius, with Decimus Turullius. I've never been able to repeat that feat again, outside of one other coin later discovered to be an old fake. 

Most of the lots in that NAC auction were bought by one particularly deep-pocketed bidder. 

NAC, Kunker Spring/Autumn sales, CNG Triton, these tend to attract the highest quality coins and highest bids. They are a joy to browse even though the coins are out of my reach. Congratulations to all the successful bidders!

[CPK]

28 minutes ago, traveler said:

NAC, Kunker Spring/Autumn sales, CNG Triton, these tend to attract the highest quality coins and highest bids. They are a joy to browse even though the coins are out of my reach. Congratulations to all the successful bidders!

Absolutely! I love getting the printed CNG Triton catalogs. Maybe someday I will be able to purchase coins of that caliber, but for now it is a treat just to go through a catalog!

[DonnaML]

12 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

This is exactly my hunting ground 😁
A few examples caught my attention, as I had purchased similar coins last year.

 

Dioscuri: $5'500 (hammer price excl. fees):

Mine: $1200 in retail, this year:

 

Dioscuri:  $6055 (hammer price excl. fees):

 

Mine: $280 (hammer price excl. fees, last year):

 

Dioscuri: $4400 (hammer price excl. fees):

Mine: $600 (hammer price excl. fees, last year):

 

I cannot disagree with the people who say that some of the coins were overpriced. But certainly not all of them.

I have to say that although @Phil Davis's new Lucretius Trio dolphin coin is gorgeous, I think I might still choose mine, bought for less than 10% of the Dioscuri Collection price:

Roman Republic, L Lucretius Trio, AR Denarius, 76 BCE. Obv. Laureate head of Neptune right, IIIIXXX [34] above and trident behind / Rev. Cupid (or Infant Genius) on dolphin right; L LVCRETIVS TRIO. Crawford 390/2, Sydenham 784, RSC I Lucretia 3, Sear RCV I 322 (ill.), Harlan, RRM I Ch. 16 at pp. 98, 100-103 [Michael Harlan, Roman Republican Moneyers and their Coins, 81 BCE-64 BCE (Vol. I) (2012)], BMCRR Rome 3247. 19 mm., 3.9 g. Purchased from Steven Battelle Ancient Coins, Santa Cruz, CA, Dec. 24, 2019.

Why do I say that? Because despite the fact that the condition of the Dioscuri Collection specimen is clearly superior overall, I've never seen an example that shows the expressions of either the Cupid or the dolphin more vividly than mine. 

[Qcumbor]

7 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

While I have both of your attention, @Qcumborand @Salomons Cat, I hope neither of you think I "disagree" somehow with your approach to collecting. Au contraire, I think it makes all the sense in the world.

No worries @Phil Davis, no offense taken. To each their own. I have no problem staying in my own playground as it's better balanced for me. I couldn't play in 1st league anyway, and as stated above I can always admire truly exceptional coin in catalogs and follow marvelous auctions such as that one on my computer

Q

[Limes]

23 hours ago, Coinmaster said:

The auction prices were truly absurd, often ranging from 3 to 10 times the regular market value in my opinion. The auction room seemed to be filled with millionaires, bidding against each other with gusto, which was bizarre.

Don't think absurd though. Clearly, many of the coins were the best of the best out there. And with coins (and provenances) like that and offered by NAC, they will fetch high prices. You dont have to be a millionaire to participate, some Severans went for 100+ something CHF only. But I'm happy, and do hope, that millionairs spend their money at NAC, or the NY sales in January, and not at some random e-sale 😁

And congratulations to all the winners! Fantastic coins. 

[Limes]

By the way, I'm also very interested to see how the EID MAR will do. Will it fetch more than one million CHF? 

[Limes]

On 5/8/2024 at 8:06 AM, Jabes said:

Congrats Phil and Joe, those are some beautiful coins. I wonder what the other eight coins are Phil? My main miss was the 20 asses, a stunning coin but it went beyond my budget.
On the bright side, and to my surprise, I ended the day with exactly what I wanted going in.

 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4514&l=5378142

 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4514&l=5378262 

 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4514&l=5378322

(This also marks my first posting on this forum. Newbie here 🙂)

Great wins! And welcome to the forum 🙂

[Phil Davis]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:06 AM, Jabes said:

Congrats Phil and Joe, those are some beautiful coins. I wonder what the other eight coins are Phil? My main miss was the 20 asses, a stunning coin but it went beyond my budget.
On the bright side, and to my surprise, I ended the day with exactly what I wanted going in.

 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4514&l=5378142

 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4514&l=5378262 

 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nac/browse?a=4514&l=5378322

(This also marks my first posting on this forum. Newbie here 🙂)

Welcome to the forum @Jabes, and congrats on winning three excellent, scarce coins! The first and third of your lots in particular are two of the best "bargains" in the sale and perfectly demonstrate that even here, a collector bidding with knowledge and attention could very nicely enhance his or her collection without paying "absurd" prices. I almost threw a bid at the Pomponia myself, just because it was selling so reasonably. I'm glad I didn't pointlessly bid you up. (I cant help mentioning, since not everyone has noticed this, that the reverse of the Pomponia was without a doubt the prototype for the reverse of the Koson gold stater.)

Edited May 9 by Phil Davis

[Phil Davis]

3 hours ago, Limes said:

By the way, I'm also very interested to see how the EID MAR will do. Will it fetch more than one million CHF? 

I think it may need 1.5 mill.

[rasiel]

If I hadn't been so naive I would have I'd have bid much more aggressively on that Soaemias. It's possible I would have gotten it had I bid 10x est which is what I typically do when I throw caution to the wind. It's as far as I can tell the most detailed portrait of hers in any denomination.

It would have made an excellent mother-daughter combo for my Maesa

Rasiel

[Limes]

4 hours ago, Phil Davis said:

I think it may need 1.5 mill.

Ended up selling for 950.000 CHF. A "bargain"? 

[AncientJoe]

11 minutes ago, Limes said:

Ended up selling for 950.000 CHF. A "bargain"? 

Phil's price wasn't far off when counting the BP and exchange rate (~$1.3M all in). It's quite a record but pretty justifiable in my eyes, especially considering what some ugly examples have sold for recently. 

The bidding was also strategic, with the underbidder trying a cut and the internet bidder completing the cut. That means the support level is within ~25K CHF of the final bid, a strategic move. The underbidder was probably pushed away by the psychological level of 1M CHF even though it would have been a comparatively small jump.

I'd hate to think what the Garrett coin (1888 pedigree and stronger detail) would sell for if it were to come around... in the meantime, I'm happy with mine even if it isn't an "old world" pedigree (but still pre-2011 for what that's worth).

[Limes]

2 hours ago, AncientJoe said:

Phil's price wasn't far off when counting the BP and exchange rate (~$1.3M all in). It's quite a record but pretty justifiable in my eyes, especially considering what some ugly examples have sold for recently. 

The bidding was also strategic, with the underbidder trying a cut and the internet bidder completing the cut. That means the support level is within ~25K CHF of the final bid, a strategic move. The underbidder was probably pushed away by the psychological level of 1M CHF even though it would have been a comparatively small jump.

I'd hate to think what the Garrett coin (1888 pedigree and stronger detail) would sell for if it were to come around... in the meantime, I'm happy with mine even if it isn't an "old world" pedigree (but still pre-2011 for what that's worth).

Interesting to see the bidding action indeed. Wondering about that online bidder though, my guess is its a dealer,  but thats just a guess. 

Your example is fantastic, I remember you posting the photos.

The EID MAR issue is an iconic type. In one of his podcasts, Aaron Berk talked about he type getting ever more expensive. I think with the inflow of new collectors since corona pandemic thats not surprising. Where's the limit? Its as much as someone is willing to pay. 

Im not familiar with that Garrett issue though. Ill try to look it up. 

[Jabes]

Thanks @Limes and @Phil Davis for the welcome. 

And a double thanks to you @Phil Davis for not bidding it up on the Pomponius haha. Was definitely shocked when I "snagged" it at that price, had to pinch myself a little. Love the Pomp, as I find both the mystery of him and of the Koson staters absolutely fascinating. After the pinching came the head scratching, thinking of how the Gar Ogul Ver went for more than the Pomp. But from my research I did not find one with a nicer reverse, it looked gorgeous in the video, and if i'm being assumptive I think it's one of the nicest specimens of its type for now, which to me "justified" its pricing. Can't wait to see all of them in hand! 

Edited May 10 by Jabes