How difficult is it to move an ancients collection to Europe?

[kirispupis]

Hello everyone,

For an April Fools prank, I posted that we'd purchased a property near Gerberoy, France and had just moved there. Of course, it was just a joke but I'm still receiving congratulations comments today.

This got me to thinking, what would the ramifications be if we moved to Europe? This is actually something we've considered for some time. From a legal/residency issue it shouldn't be a problem because I'm a Luxembourg citizen, so AFAIK I can reside in any EU country. My wife isn't a citizen, but she just needs a few months in Luxembourg to take some classes and then pass a language exam, so that's doable.

However, I've wondered what the effect would be on my ancients collection. My understand is this will vary by country, and so my belief is we can narrow it down to two.

• My preference would be Luxembourg because I love it there and it's very central. It's well organized and rarely gets too hot in the summer. The main downside is the real estate is pricy.
• My wife is keener on Italy, though she's unsure where.

For all other countries, we've either visited it and wouldn't want to live there, or we're already aware of wealth tax issues that would make it untenable.

This is all far fetched because we'd have to figure out the tax implications, health insurance, real estate, etc, but let's say that's all figured out. How difficult would it be to bring my collection from the US?

My understanding is for Greece, it would be very difficult. However, we're both of the same mind that we wouldn't want to live there - just visit.

In terms of my collection, it's mostly of coins from Greece and Asia Minor with some Romans. While I do have the purchase date and amount for every coin in a database, I don't have the import documentation for most of them.

So, narrowing my questions down a bit:

1. How much trouble would the US give me in exporting my collection?
2. How difficult would it be to import my collection to Luxembourg? Italy?
3. Once my collection is in Luxembourg or Italy, how easy would it be to take it out if we decided to go elsewhere?

[robinjojo]

Perhaps this might help:

https://guichet.public.lu/en/citoyens/immigration/nouveau-resident-luxembourg/arrivee-luxembourg/declarer-biens-personnels-douanes-demenagement-pays-tiers-vers-Luxembourg.html

I'm staying in Cupertino.  I think the city has a deal with Apple's "spaceship" headquarters that residents can come along for the ride if it ever departs for points unknown....😉

[Spargrodan]

9 hours ago, kirispupis said:

Hello everyone,

For an April Fools prank, I posted that we'd purchased a property near Gerberoy, France and had just moved there. Of course, it was just a joke but I'm still receiving congratulations comments today.

This got me to thinking, what would the ramifications be if we moved to Europe? This is actually something we've considered for some time. From a legal/residency issue it shouldn't be a problem because I'm a Luxembourg citizen, so AFAIK I can reside in any EU country. My wife isn't a citizen, but she just needs a few months in Luxembourg to take some classes and then pass a language exam, so that's doable.

However, I've wondered what the effect would be on my ancients collection. My understand is this will vary by country, and so my belief is we can narrow it down to two.

• My preference would be Luxembourg because I love it there and it's very central. It's well organized and rarely gets too hot in the summer. The main downside is the real estate is pricy.
• My wife is keener on Italy, though she's unsure where.

For all other countries, we've either visited it and wouldn't want to live there, or we're already aware of wealth tax issues that would make it untenable.

This is all far fetched because we'd have to figure out the tax implications, health insurance, real estate, etc, but let's say that's all figured out. How difficult would it be to bring my collection from the US?

My understanding is for Greece, it would be very difficult. However, we're both of the same mind that we wouldn't want to live there - just visit.

In terms of my collection, it's mostly of coins from Greece and Asia Minor with some Romans. While I do have the purchase date and amount for every coin in a database, I don't have the import documentation for most of them.

So, narrowing my questions down a bit:

1. How much trouble would the US give me in exporting my collection?
2. How difficult would it be to import my collection to Luxembourg? Italy?
3. Once my collection is in Luxembourg or Italy, how easy would it be to take it out if we decided to go elsewhere?

Depending on country you have to count for over seas taxes on all assets, stocks, properties etc as some countries has it for example Italy and Spain.

In general I think you're pretty safe moving your collection around Europe, I've heard of some laws like Germany would need a proof of a coin being in an old collection from the 80's so years to be able to move it outside the country. I have bought coins from German coin dealers to Sweden without problems so I don't think they enforce it. Maybe if you move a big collection all at once?

The main thing you can be forced to pay might be taxes on the collection when moving. Other than that I don't think there should be much problems. As long as you stay out of Greece as they have very specific regulations there.

 

Edited April 4 by Spargrodan

[Severus]

1 hour ago, Spargrodan said:

....

In general I think you're pretty safe moving your collection around Europe, I've heard of some laws like Germany would need a proof of a coin being in an old collection from the 80's so years to be able to move it outside the country. I have bought coins from German coin dealers to Sweden without problems so I don't think they enforce it. Maybe if you move a big collection all at once?

...

 

I am from Germany and pretty sure that there is no such law. 

Is it possible that you are confusing it with Austria? There export limiting laws are in place. Numismatik Naumann for example always has it writen somewhere that there may be delays in shipping due to the process of getting the export permission. Even there the process seems to be smooth and fast, as it never took long for the coins to arrive. 

[Spargrodan]

4 hours ago, Severus said:

I am from Germany and pretty sure that there is no such law. 

Is it possible that you are confusing it with Austria? There export limiting laws are in place. Numismatik Naumann for example always has it writen somewhere that there may be delays in shipping due to the process of getting the export permission. Even there the process seems to be smooth and fast, as it never took long for the coins to arrive. 

Aha okey I heard it from the Aron Berks podcast. 

[Deinomenid]

18 hours ago, kirispupis said:

• How much trouble would the US give me in exporting my collection?
• How difficult would it be to import my collection to Luxembourg? Italy?
• Once my collection is in Luxembourg or Italy, how easy would it be to take it out if we decided to go elsewhere?

I worry that answers  here  on such important questions are not what you need, no matter how well-intended. You need someone with detailed specific knowledge, not hearsay, with no offense to anyone.

So hypocritically, here's my own hearsay. There are  not  infrequently nightmarish conversations on Italian (one of your two main choices)  boards about the huge problems collectors can have with ancients there. They appear to have a common thread of a presumption of guilt, or at least seizure of relevant assets and a quest to prove  innocence. I'd ask  one of the Italian members of  this board as it sounds alarming if at all true.

I have no idea about  Luxembourg, other  than  that I nearly went mad with boredom after a week training there. Admittedly from London, but egad.  2 week course, and  I  went  home early. The BBC  for some reason feels a need to say  it is not boring and  in a recent article  points to free wifi as an example of why  it is not. Case closed. (Yes I know it is quite pretty, usefully located to escape from and is safe and prosperous! 😀)

Good luck!

 

[Homer2]

I guess it all depends on which country in the EU, but I am an expat currently living in Germany. Been buying coins from all over Europe (and occasionally the US) and have not really had problems. Spain and Italy are very strict with export. I've bought from Numismatik Naumann, expecting a delay, and finding the coins delivered within a week of payment.

I will eventually need to move back to North America, and will be taking the collection with me. That should be fun.

It seems that taking valuable items on aircraft with you would invite scrutiny with customs officials. Documentation may be necessary and if a large collection is being moved, that may be difficult. If in household goods, I hardly think they would be noticed. 

[Ursus]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:34 AM, kirispupis said:

How difficult would it be to bring my collection from the US?

Been there, done that. I moved from California back to Germany in 2020 after a couple of years in the US. I brought my coin collection with me and got some legal advice on customs etc. beforehand. 
 

To sum things up, personal moving goods and household effects are customs free in most EU countries, including Luxembourg (see here). A coin collection arguably constitutes personal moving goods, at least if you don’t plan to sell it off upon arrival. Personally, I didn’t have any problems with customs. 
 

Italy is rather draconic when it comes to cultural heritage laws. I would speak to a specialized lawyer before bringing my collection there. But from what I get, the biggest problem would probably not be to import your coins but to export them again should you ever decide to sell.

[catadc]

@kirispupissmall world. Robinjojo's link is nice and you'll probably get an answer easily by mail or phone, especially if you ask them in Luxembourgish. I cannot help with other info; I moved here from the EU. Otherwise, the real estate market is finally decreasing slowly on minimal volumes, there were 37 Celsius at one point last summer and you're optimistic with "a few months to learn the language", unless she's German or a natural talent in foreign languages. More than 5 years here and I know still the two words that everyone is learning on their first day. 

[kirispupis]

3 hours ago, catadc said:

@kirispupissmall world. Robinjojo's link is nice and you'll probably get an answer easily by mail or phone, especially if you ask them in Luxembourgish. I cannot help with other info; I moved here from the EU. Otherwise, the real estate market is finally decreasing slowly on minimal volumes, there were 37 Celsius at one point last summer and you're optimistic with "a few months to learn the language", unless she's German or a natural talent in foreign languages. More than 5 years here and I know still the two words that everyone is learning on their first day. 

Thanks! My Luxembourgish itself isn't so great, though I can get by in French and German. In terms of real estate, we met with an agent several years ago and came close to buying a property, but we held off. I'm not too worried about a few days at 37. It reached 46 here a few years ago and that was unbearable, and Seattle doesn't typically get hot. Regardless, whatever temperature it reaches in Lux, southern/central Italy will be far worse.

In terms of learning the language, she only has to pass the language exam and I already have the books for that. She doesn't need to be in Lux to study that, but she does for a required history course. She's much quicker than I with languages. English is actually her 4th language and she didn't study it until she was 19 and now speaks without an accent - one of the very few I know who have managed that.

As I mentioned, this is mostly hypothetical. While we have discussed it, I don't see us making any move for at least a few years.

[John Conduitt]

Moving coins across borders is risky, potentially expensive and at the very least a hassle. I think the only thing that's certain is you should make a good decision on where you want to live as you won't want to do it twice.

[Brennos]

a customs declaration is required if you cross a European border with more than 10,000 euros in value.
Ironically, you're allowed to drive a €1 million Bugati Veyron across the border, but the driver isn't allowed to have €10,001 in his wallet.