zanzi Posted February 20 · Member Share Posted February 20 Hello, I am not much of a collector of personalities, but something recently drew me towards finally getting an Alexander III coin. After purchase it was ID'd and I found it was a posthumous issue, but it's close enough for me to be happy with it. It had the control marks perfectly intact despite its wear and tear, so is nicely attributed to Price #1750. I wanted to ask about the authenticity of the coin. It was purchased from Zurqieh who, as far as I can tell, is not known for selling fakes although his other practices can perhaps be questioned. The bits of extra metal on Hercules' face, however, seems unusual. Does anyone have an opinion on this or knowledge of why it would appear like that? There are no other red flags on the coin, ie no cast seem and size is good. Alexander III (the Great) of Macedon (posthumous), issued under Philip III Arrhidaios Kolophon Mint 323 to 319 BC O: Head of Hercules right, wearing a lion's skin R: Zeus seated left with an eagle and sceptre, horizontal corn grain left, spearhead right, AΛEΞANΔPOY 4.10 grams, 16mm Price 1750 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted February 20 · Supporter Share Posted February 20 Hello @zanzi,,,i hate to be the bearer of bad news, so we'll consider this educational...do you see those holes?...they are most likely casting bubbles...and it appears kinda soapy too...telltale signs of a reproduction most times........:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted February 20 · Supporter Share Posted February 20 i have 2 silver drachmas ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Anthos Posted February 20 · Member Share Posted February 20 Regretfully I have to agree, a cast fake. 🙁 Here's the second ancient coin I ever bought (back in 1988 for $20!)... Macedonian Kingdom after 323 BC AR Drachm (18mm, 3.91g) O: Head of Alexander as Herakles right, clad in lion's skin. R: Zeus enthroned left, holding eagle and sceptre, his right leg drawn back; buckle symbol in field to left, monogram (cresent above A) beneath throne, AΛEΞANΔPOY behind. Lampsakos mint (posthumous issue). cf Price 1372; Sear 6730v ex Jack H. Beymer ~ Peter 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted February 20 · Member Share Posted February 20 I see what appear to be horn silver deposits on the obverse. If so, that would appear to speak for the authenticity. Several "holes" are irregular in shape, unlike circular casting bubbles. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETHER Posted February 20 · Member Share Posted February 20 (edited) I don't think it's cast, show us the side of the coin? it looks like horn silver. Nice coin. Looks fine to me. I have cleaned hornsilver and this looks like the after math. Edited February 20 by AETHER 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted February 20 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted February 20 I'm also doubtful (though no authority) that this is a cast fake. Zurqieh is pretty reputable and it would be odd for them to let such a fake by. I agree with others that this is more likely horn silver. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor Theodosius Posted February 21 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted February 21 (edited) I have sent coins with blobs of extra metal on them to David Sear and gotten his opinion that they are genuine and it happens. Casting bubbles are typically smaller and perfectly round. Zurqieh does not sell obvious fakes. John Edited February 21 by Theodosius Stupid autocorrect doesn't buy coins from Zurqieh 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ominus1 Posted February 21 · Supporter Share Posted February 21 ...well...there you go! ...lQQks like 5 out of 6 coiners think your coin is legit.. :)....(it does weigh about right and i';m not 100% of most anything ^^) 1 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted February 21 · Supporter Share Posted February 21 (edited) I'll add another vote for harshly cleaned, not fake. Here is my first Alexander - unlisted Price 1379 variant from CNG that shows up as an example on wildwinds. It took me a while to realize that there are non-Roman ancient coins. Edited February 21 by Sulla80 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edessa Posted February 21 · Supporter Share Posted February 21 Hard to see from the photo, but some plated fourees that I have seen have similar pitting. The extent of the pitting on this one would probably expose the core at some point, but it's a possibility. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanzi Posted February 21 · Member Author Share Posted February 21 I thank everybody for the responses, I did not expect such a back and forth over the coin but am glad to hear the general consensus lies in an overcleaned authentic coin. The fouree possibility is interesting. Thank you kindly to everyone for sharing their thoughts and expertise, it was also great to see everyone's personal examples. It's amazing how many small varieties there are of the Alexander III drachms. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted February 21 · Member Share Posted February 21 I think it's likely pitting from corrosion rather than casting bubbles too. It's not too uncommon to see on a lot of the low budget Alexander drachms we see coming to market on biddr. In terms of Zurqieh, I wouldn't say they're unlikely to sell fakes as they absolutely have (and removed them when alerted) but they're probably better than your average budget biddr auction house. They have the help of a reputable numismatist for checking attributions and authenticity I believe but even one fake that I know of has slipped past him and it was a known forgery. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted February 21 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted February 21 I'm inclined to agree that the pits on both sides of the coin are caused by corrosion. I have seen this condition innumerable times in the past, and they are associated with horn silver. My guess is that the coin came out of a hoard dark and encrusted. It was aggressively cleaned which led to the exposure of the pits. Some of the horn silver is still present and if they were removed there would be more pits. Another feature of the OP coin is that the reverse, the side that would receive the force of the hammer die, is clearly concave. Coins that are cast tend to be basically flat on both sides in my experience. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanzi Posted February 27 · Member Author Share Posted February 27 Thank you both for the added info about pitting and Zurqieh. This definitely appears harshly cleaned so the explanation makes sense. Thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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