Duplicates?

[Valentinian]

There are an awful lot of ancient-coin types. You will never run out of new and interesting types to buy, so there is no reason to buy duplicates--or is there? What makes a coin a "duplicate," anyway?

I sometimes end up with two of the same type when they have much different surfaces and the second is inexpensive.


Constantine (307-337) commemorative.  15 mm. Struck 348-350.
His posthumous veiled bust right. VN MR either side of standing veiled emperor.
Venerandae memoriae
•SMKZ, for the Cyzicus mint. RIC VIII Cyzicus 54.
Bought from C. J. Martin in north London in 1988. It was fully silvered but has toned dark since.


Same type with different surfaces.
16 mm. 
Alexandria mint.  RIC VIII Alexandria 32. 
I bought this one recently because it was very attractive, seemed a lot different, and inexpensive (it cost me less in dollars than the other one cost in 1988). 

Of course, if you collect late Roman coins by mint these two are different "types," but I don't collect by mint (with some exceptions).

Show us a pair of coins of yours that someone else might call duplicates, but you had your own reasons to get two of the same "type."

[AETHER]

Unfortunately I don't have any true dupes in regards to the same exact variety, but I have been trying to find die matches for any coins I have, I suppose that would count? 

[Ryro]

Nice dups and good point! There's nothing wrong with loving the same type for different reasons. Same reason you can have five wives in Utah!

I already had my Artemis MSC tet:

And even though it was "repaired", I really liked the toning and preferred the style and detail of this one:

And then, of course, there are several barbarous types after the kind. Here's one:

[Marsyas Mike]

Duplicates!  Oh yeah, I buy duplicates.  Just in this week, my third Gordian III antoninianus with FORTVNA REDVX on the reverse, minted in Antioch.  It's the portraits that get me - with ancients (unlike Jefferson nickels) you get different artwork with each one.  My new one (which to my surprise weighs 5.2 grams, quite heavy for the type): 

Two others, same old same old: 

[Victor_Clark]

 

I have lots of duplicates. The coins below are all RIC VII Siscia 95.

 

 

 

 

[Curtis JJ]

A few years ago I bought several dozen of these Phalanna bronzes. I briefly wondered what I would do with 44 duplicates.

Soon I discovered there was a lot more variety and lot more to be interested in. (Check out all those different styles of Sakkos & decorations! And different faces! And necklaces!)

I've spent the last 4 years or so looking for more varieties and dies and engravers. Just a few from the initial group:

 

I hesitate to mention the following...

Having duplicate coin books might seem even stranger than duplicate coins. And duplicate auction catalogs even more so -- especially for sales that are largely available online (even some of them as PDFs with intro essays and all). Duplicate sets (a few in triplicate) of Leo Benz and BCD Collections:

I have two sets of Leo Benz catalogs from Lanz Numismatik (Auktion 88, 94, 100). One of them is the standard softcover. The other is a custom hardcover set from the Lanz Library -- it's the only complete hardcover set I'm aware of. (There was also a partial hardcover set in the same Lanz Library Sale, with one catalog softcover.)

I have almost two complete sets of the 10 main BCD Collection catalogs, but triplicates of several (the 3 CNG ones & MM23). Why? Well, they're not really duplicates because they have a different "provenance." I have one set from the library of well-known German numismatist and a partial set of an American scholar/dealer's personal copies. I do recognize that may seem a bit greedy, so I should probably trim down to one (or maybe 1.5 sets), but I haven't decided which to keep yet.

 

Edit: Just remembered I have four copies of the Superior Galleries publication, Money Talk$, for June 1992. One ex RBW Library, another ex Malter Library, with their address labels. I didn't intentionally acquire four of them, of course, but got them in groups of other catalogs.

I love old fixed price list catalogs for ancient coins -- especially with address labels/postage still affixed -- but even I don't consider the Money Talk$ lists very desirable! (Too few ancients.) Of course, no one else wants those either.

Edited January 24 by Curtis JJ

[Octavius]

Same thing only different....  

[ambr0zie]

In my opinion, this is one of the major differences between collecting ancient coins and modern coins. For moderns, things are relatively simple - you get a type you want and perhaps you will upgrade it (although I know collectors who intentionally buy duplicates because they simply like a coin type). 

For ancients things are getting more complicated. A definition would be - 2 coins of the same type, same catalogue entry.  

But as we all know, things are not that simple. The dies can be very different. Some were engraved by talented artists, some - not so much. So if you show 2 coins on the same type but different dies to someone who doesn't know ancient coins, they will assume these are different coins. 

Another point - toning can play a major role (as seen in the above example)

And another point - even if the coins are double die matches, this still makes both collectable - I can say this is an advantage as it's quite fantastic that after thousands of years two coins from the same dies, probably engraved by a certain person and struck by another person are now reunited in a collection. 

Here is my well known examples of a denarius I have - not duplicate, triplicate. All 3 have the same catalogue entry. 

 

Are these duplicates? Theoretically, yes. Practically, no.
And to make it even better, I have recently lost an example in an auction - a barbarous imitation, but in great artistry. I would have gladly added it as a 4th example.

[dougsmit]

15 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

Are these duplicates? Theoretically, yes. Practically, no.
And to make it even better, I have recently lost an example in an auction - a barbarous imitation, but in great artistry. I would have gladly added it as a 4th example.

Four?   I still have 28 Rome mint denarii including two sets of die duplicates of the clashed die reverses.  There are also 3 AE of the type and 10 of Eastern mints (a post for another time) plus one with Septimius obverse.  The group shot illustrates the clashes and variations separating whether the drapery flows down on the right, left or both sides. 

This one is barbarous and not as pretty as the first....

 

....but my worst is also the most rare (I have seen one other) with obverse legend split IVLIADOM   NAAVG.  

Yes, I like this very common type and all coins of Domna.  When I started my web page in 1997 there was already a page online dedicated to Domna but it disappeared years ago.  That was before the Internet was of much interest to dealers who now provide most of what is online.  

 

 

 

[Ryro]

On 1/23/2024 at 8:13 PM, Curtis JJ said:

A few years ago I bought several dozen of these Phalanna bronzes. I briefly wondered what I would do with 44 duplicates.

Soon I discovered there was a lot more variety and lot more to be interested in. (Check out all those different styles of Sakkos & decorations! And different faces! And necklaces!)

I've spent the last 4 years or so looking for more varieties and dies and engravers. Just a few from the initial group:

It's so nice to run into another Sakkos fanatic! Here's a write up I did a bit ago on em:

Any literature on these bronze gems that you would recommend?

Here are a few of mine, I'll have to see if I have photos of others and post later if I do:

 

[Ryro]

37 minutes ago, dougsmit said:

Four?   I still have 28 Rome mint denarii including two sets of die duplicates of the clashed die reverses.  There are also 3 AE of the type and 10 of Eastern mints (a post for another time)  

I'll be eagerly awaiting that post, sir. 

A reverse type always near and dear to my rear...I mean heart!

 

Edited January 25 by Ryro

[Valentinian]

I started this thread with a pair of posthumous Constantine coins, one bought from C. J. Martin in north London in 1988. It was fully silvered but has toned dark since. At the same time I bought this small coin, also silvered then and toned darker since:



Constans as Augustus, 337-340, struck "Spring 340". RIC VIII Alexandria 20. Small: 15 mm and 1.59 grams.
Now I have a "duplicate":


It is the same RIC number and officina, but very different in appearance. Also small at 15 mm and 1.37 grams.

The latter coin has been artificially repatinated, but I like it that way. 


 

[Salomons Cat]

When I began my collection, I made some rules for myself: I would buy the highest quality coins within my budget, refrain from purchasing duplicates, and resist the temptation to seek upgrades.
But, well, I got a bit obsessed with denarii featuring Commodus as Hercules and ended up breaking this rules a few times... 
However, I truly believe that my denarii of Commodus as Hercules are among the finest of their kind. In fact, I'd struggle to locate equally appealing specimens in today's market. I still don't understand why they're not more popular. I believe that they might be a bit undervalued, because attractive specimens are not common.

Another duplicate that I have is Severus Alexander, RIC 246. First, I bought this one:

But then I noticed that Mars has very fancy shoes on that one, so I bought it, too:

[-monolith-]

On 1/24/2024 at 9:29 PM, dougsmit said:

Four?   I still have 28 Rome mint denarii including two sets of die duplicates of the clashed die reverses.  There are also 3 AE of the type and 10 of Eastern mints (a post for another time) plus one with Septimius obverse.  The group shot illustrates the clashes and variations separating whether the drapery flows down on the right, left or both sides. 

This one is barbarous and not as pretty as the first....

 

....but my worst is also the most rare (I have seen one other) with obverse legend split IVLIADOM   NAAVG.  

Yes, I like this very common type and all coins of Domna.  When I started my web page in 1997 there was already a page online dedicated to Domna but it disappeared years ago.  That was before the Internet was of much interest to dealers who now provide most of what is online.  

 

 

 

No if, ands, or butts about it, that's a really nice colection.

[shanxi]

Small differences that make a new type > Wonderful

The same type but from different dies > Very interesting

Die matches of the same coin > I love it

 

In the end I keep them all

 

Here are two die matches from my collection:

double die match of:
Lydia, Hierocaesaraea
Lucilla (Augusta, 164-182)
Bronze, AE 19
Obv: ΛΟVΚΙΛΛΑ СЄΒΑС, Draped bust right.
Rev: ΙЄΡΟΚΑΙСΑΡЄΩΝ, Artemis standing right, holding bow and drawing arrow from quiver on back.
Æ, 19.2mm, 5.34g
RPC IV online 1588-6 (this coin)
Æ, 19.3mm, 5.33g
RPC IV online 1588-9 (this coin)
 

Obverse and reverse die match:

Vespasian
Bronze
Obv.: OYECΠACIANOC KAICAP CEBA, laureate head of Vespasian right
Rev: IEPOKAICAPEΩN, stag standing right.
Æ, 18mm, 5.15g (upper coin, Ex Gorny&Mosch A271, 531)
Æ, 20mm, 3.85g (second coin)
Ref.: RPC II, 955, upper coin RPC 955-9 (this coin)

[Rand]

I do like die duplicates in my collection, have a few of them along with some triplicates. Seeing them together adds to the perspective of how they were made, the uniquiness of each hammered coin and their different lives after leaving the mint (some are in better conditions than other). I even more like die links.

A die duplicate of the ealiest Byzantine coins with ANASTASIO rather than ANASTASIVS. There is one more coin from these dies, but I do not have it.

I also have a die-link of an ANASTASIO solidus (different obverse die) and a Zeno solidus, but want to explore them a bit more before showing.

A die triplicate of a single-die variery ANASTASIVS RERP instead of usual ANASTASIVS PERP. These three are the only coins of this variety I know of.

 

 

[Croatian Coin Collector]

I don't collect duplicates, even if money wasn't an issue, completing a collection would be very difficult, just the Kushan Gold Dinars of the various Kushan Emperors probably have a hundred different designs...

[ewomack]

I can see a case for duplicates if you fund another of the same time that you prefer over the one you already have. My only duplicates to date are pair of 9th century Theophilus Folles. Both have the same Sear designation. The first was bought as an "experimental" Byzantine pickup, so relatively inexpensive and rough. The second coin was serendipity. I liked the expression on the portrait so much, and the detail seemed overall richer than the previous one, so I bought it. I don't generally like duplicates, even ones with obvious distinctions such as these two, but I find them useful in "upgrade" situations. I have never sought them out intentionally.

Theophilus (AD 829-842) Æ Follis; Constantinople mint; AD 830-842; Obv: ΘEOFIL bASIL; Half-length figure standing facing, holding labarum and globus cruciger; Rev: ΘEO / FILE AVG / OVSTE SV / hICAS in four lines; 27.66mm; 7.46 grams; Sear 1667


Theophilus (AD 829-842) Æ Follis; Constantinople mint; AD 830-842; Obv: ΘEOFIL bASIL; Half-length figure standing facing, holding labarum and globus cruciger; Rev: ΘEO / FILE AVG / OVSTE SV / hICAS in four lines; 28mm; 8.26 grams; Sear 1667

[Curtisimo]

Usually when I end up with duplicates I gift one of them to friends I know will appreciate them. I loved both of the below examples but decided to keep only one and send the other to live with Theodosius as part of an exchange. 🙂 

[TIF]

I can't really grasp the concept of eschewing duplicates in ancient coins, unless you are on a strict "one of each emperor" diet or something like that :D.

Budget allowing*, there is always justification for adding another example because no two ancient coins are exactly alike.

*I guess budget really is the only reason I don't just buy every example of every coin type that I like 🤣.

Here are some "duplicates".  Not planning on getting rid of any of them any time soon ;).

LYDIA, Sardes 
Germanicus and Drusus
Struck CE 23-26?
restruck by Asinius Pollio, proconsul of Asia under Caligula, CE 37-38?
Æ26, 13.78 gm
Obv: ΔPOYΣOΣ KAI ΓEPMANIKOΣ NEIOI ΘEOI ΦIΛAΔEΛΦOI; Germanicus and Drusus seated left on curule chairs, one holding lituus.
Rev: ΓAIΩ AΣINNIΩ ΠΩΛΛIΩNI ANΘYΠATΩ; KOINOY/ AΣIAΣ within wreath
Ref: RPC 2995, Sear 365

This popular mythological type showing Perseus holding the severed head of Medusa, with blood still gushing from her body..>

The first example was my first.  The second was found in a jewelry store on St. John, US Virgin Islands, and covered by such a thick layer of verdigris that it was barely identifiable.  I was just thrilled to find an ancient coin for sale in that remote place... an ancient coin that wasn't set into jewelry, that is.  The last example was like Mallory's mountain  "because it was there". 🤣 (and it was inexpensive)

 

 

Edited September 8 by TIF

[Rand]

1 hour ago, Croatian Coin Collector said:

I don't collect duplicates, even if money wasn't an issue, completing a collection would be very difficult, just the Kushan Gold Dinars of the various Kushan Emperors probably have a hundred different designs...

This is true...

Building complete collections is (nearly always) futile. There are always more types, rulers, countries... Our collections only give a glimpse of history. Which one links to us most is personal. It is interesting to read stories from generalists who show a perspective across cultures, and it is interesting to learn neat secrets from specialists.

Whatching right now Long Table 197. Funding Sulla’s Wars: Monetary Production in the Mediterranean Basin, 88-82 BCE. Very interesting, cannot be done without looking at duplicates.

 

[Anaximander]

Duplicates? Oh yes. Books too? Oh yes.  It's never really intentional, more like incidental.  

Here's a pair from Samos, from Baktria, and from Pamphylia. 

 

Asia Minor. Ionia. c. 210-185 BC. AR Drachm of Samos on Plinthophoric stdd. Lion scalp facing within border of dots./ Forepart of ox charging right, grain ear before, ΣΑΜIΩΝ above, krater and ΠAΓ monogram below. EF. SNG Kayhan 671; SNG Cop 5 (Ionia) #1713; BMC p.367 #180-183; HGC 6 #1241; McClean III #8420; Barron p.225 #34a (HA311/HP330). 

 

Baktria. Heliokles II Dikaios. 90-75 BC. Square Æ of E. Gandhara or W. Punjab. (one is overstruck on Strato I). Diademed and draped bust of Zeus Keraumophoros right. ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΔΙΚΑΙΟΥ ΗΛΙΟΚΛΕΟΥΣ. / Elephant standing left. Maharaja dhramikasa Heliyakreyasa (Karosthi: of Great King Heliokles the Just). Monogram N◁ in ex. VF. Boperachchi Série 7C; BMC 3; HGC 12 #384; MIG 2 Type 294e. 

   

Asia Minor. Pamphylia. 460-410 BC. AR Stater of Side. Pomegranate within guilloche border. Head of lion in upper field./ Head of Athena right, in crested Corinthian helmet, all within incuse square. VF. Atlan 24 (O22/A22); SNG France 3 #626 (same dies) = Babelon Traité II/1 #874 (pl. 24 #4). 

 

PS: Another one!  From Macedon. 

   

Kings of Macedon. Antigonos II Gonatas. 277‑239 BC. AR Tetradrachm of Amphipolis, after 271/0 BC. Macedonian shield w/ horned head of Pan, lagobolon, and stars in double crescents. / Athena Alkidemos left, brandishing thunderbolt and holding shield. ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑΝΤΙΓΟΝΟΥ. Crested helmet to left & HΛ monogram to right. VF. SNG Berry 350-352 (one with obv. die link to 359); Panagopoulou TEA pd.4 gp.7 pl.40-41 #32-35; HGC 3.1 #1042; SNG Cop 2 #1199-1202; SNG Delepierre 1063. 

Edited September 8 by Anaximander

[Bonshaw]

I have seven copies of a Lydia lion electrum trite that is both obverse and reverse die match. Is that some sort of record for this board for exact die match copies? None of them were cheap, either, it was painful to gather them all. At least I didn't have to pay a premium on the market for this being the earliest die of this series; the market doesn't seem to care.

In my case, I'm doing a very detailed die study, trying to put the coins in chronological order by die wear. As far as I know, these are 7 of the 10 coins that have been on the market with this (first) Lydia lion die - and I looked through every Lydia lion on acsearch, as well as many of the old references (SNG, etc).

I wanted to gather them for detailed measurements before they disperse into the Collectorverse, never to be gathered again.

I won't post them here quite yet; that would be premature before the study is done, but I'd like to know if anyone else here has more than 7 obverse/reverse ancient die match coins!

Edited September 8 by Bonshaw

[TIF]

11 minutes ago, Bonshaw said:

I have seven copies of a Lydia lion coin that is both obverse and reverse die match. Is that some sort of record for this board for exact die match copies? None of them are cheap, either, it was painful to gather them all.

In my case, I'm doing a very detailed die study, trying to put the coins in chronological order by die wear. As far as I know, these are 7 of the 10 coins that have been on the market with this (first) Lydia lion die - and I looked through every Lydia lion on acsearch, as well as many of the old references (SNG, etc).

I wanted to gather them for detailed measurements before they disperse into the Collectorverse, never to be gathered again.

I won't post them here quite yet; that would be premature before the study is done, but I'd like to know if anyone else here has more than 7 obverse/reverse ancient die match coins!

Wow!  What a feat!  Looking forward to seeing the study results 🙂.

[CPK]

I can't think of any duplicates I own. I try not to buy the same type again unless it is an upgrade, and then I will usually try to sell the old one.