Fakes- what's the reporting etiquette when you spot them here (or elsewhere)?

[Deinomenid]

With the clear warning I'm no great expert on them, I do quite often come across even very expensive fakes  or heavily altered Greek coins masquerading as real for sale at sometimes leading houses. I don't mean ones that somehow just don't feel right, but ones that I can explain why they are wrong.  I've given up explaining them to the houses, as they usually don't care, and have had  my suggestions  here (suggestions forum) about  highlighting fakes as they come up politely rebuffed (which is fine!) but what's the general best behaviour when someone on NumisForum posts one that they own? 

Several times I've penned a  private message to someone here only to delete  it unsent because if I am wrong I've caused worry and concern and if  I'm right I've also  caused worry and concern. Is  it best to leave well alone, especially as  they are very likely to be posted here with pride?

I even recently tried to highlight (elsewhere as it was suggested  here wasn't the right place) a series of Greek  fakes or at best retoolings in a major  French  auction and was met with apathy at best. (Though the coins eventually sold for well less than they should if real, which is a small gain, though someone will be thinking they got a bargain!) I'm  not  in search of acclaim or parades for  my great genius  in spotting say a retooled beard 🙂, but  is  it a disservice to point these things out?  I get the impression it's a little  like telling someone they have a pimple on their nose.

I know forgerynetwork and forumancientcoins  have excellent lists, but "they" don't add many of the coins of  huge concern. ( I could add them I suppose, though there are a lot and of course I might be mistaken.)

As a complete aside, there's been a great recent discussion on the fakes section of numismatikforum.de where someone with considerable expertise carefully explained how and why a Roma coin of Side was fake, (and  it clearly was in my view), Roma acknowledged it "might" be, but had NGC slab it and they sold it as real with not a hint of their concern.  This wasn't one that slipped through, as  is bound to happen. This was sold completely knowing there was real risk to authenticity but unless you spoke German and frequented that specific forum you would be none the wiser.

 

To hopefully show it's not all bad by the auction houses, CNG - to their credit - just listed as a fake the following pre-1970 purchased coin, with provenance to then and a fairly believable coin especially if one were off guard given the dating. (Old provenance can tend to lull me a little too much.) That doesn't stop them selling cartloads of reproductions that will no doubt wend their way into the for-sale-as-genuine market at some  point,  but I'm grateful for small mercies!

 

Includes collector ticket noting pre-1970 purchase from Seaby.

 

 

 

 

 

   

[expat]

It is a frustrating subject and continuously straddling the line of authenticity. Publishing details of fakes and forgeries, is not advisable so as not to warn forgers so they can change the way their forgeries appear. In the case, for example, of the stater from Pamphylia, Roma put the responsibility onto NGC. In 2023 the most important thing in the minds of a lot of businesses and individuals, is profit not customer service.

[ambr0zie]

2 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

what's the general best behaviour when someone on NumisForum posts one that they own? 

A very good question. 

There was a situation a few months ago if I remember. It was not a sale, just a presentation or perhaps in the Post it and pick it thread. I politely advised our colleague that this is a known forgery. In my opinion this is the correct action. The debate is - should this be mentioned in a PM or in a thread? 

From my point of view, it should be public but polite and not pointing the finger because, unfortunately, there is a chance many of us have forgeries in our collection without knowing. If somebody sells a forgery, actually knowing it is a forgery and selling it as genuine, I think these people should be avoided and publicly shamed. 

But in that scenario, I think the member was NOT trying to deceive anyone, and when I mentioned that the coin is suspicious, other members saw my post and, unfortunately, agreed. I noticed it accidentally, as a short while before that, I saw an identical forgery somewhere else. 

Nobody will be happy in finding out they own a fake coin but pointing it (and confirmation from other collectors) is a good thing eventually, as they might get a refund and make a known forgery publicly visible. Of course, being polite is the key and presenting clear arguments. Not "your coin seems cast" as I see Facebook posts on the dedicated groups, without any clear argument (and the coins in question are genuine coins). 

Regarding auction houses - I usually inform them. Politely. If I see no reaction, I inform biddr (the only platform I use). Biddr staff are very vigilent. 

Also a few months ago I saw a Domitian sestertius in an upcoming auction. A house I liked. When I try to attribute it myself I realized it's a "very modern" forgery. Fantasy. I confirmed this with one of the Flavian specialists from NF and informed the house. Their answer was quite prompt - "thank you for notifying, yeah, we were in a hurry with attributions, I will remove the coin". Actually it was NOT removed. It was sold as genuine. My decision - I ignored all the auctions from that house ever since. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by ambr0zie

[kirispupis]

Personally, I appreciate posts where members point out fakes in upcoming auctions. I especially appreciate feedback on why it is a fake. Since I'm a beginner in identifying fakes, this is extremely useful to me.

If one of the coins I posted is a fake, I'd appreciate someone privately messaging me to say so. I do think calling someone's coin out as a fake where he/she just felt like posting it is poor practice, but there's nothing wrong with a private message. It's up to the individual on how to proceed, but that's far better than hanging someone's coin out to dry.

[maridvnvm]

I have struglled with this over the years. In the past I have publically called out fakes and this has upset the owners. I now contact them by PM and inform them and ask if they would be happy for me to post in the thread.

[AETHER]

You should absolutely message the poster of your concern and let them decide to make it public if its a coin they own. 

If its an auction house, you should point it that there is a level of concern without going into to much detail that may benefit the crooks.

 

[Heliodromus]

If it's a members coin, then I think the right thing to do is tell, perhaps privately. The individual can always follow up in public if they choose, since it's certainly useful to share such knowledge.

I've pretty much given up notifying auction houses due to poor reactions.

[maridvnvm]

I have had mixed results with auction houses and dealers. The main result seems to be to be ignored. Sometimes the coin is removed without any acknowledgement. I was once contacted by the ancients specialist of a UK auction house to understand how I could spot the fakes. We discussed the subject for some weeks but whilst still aknowledging that they were fakes he was none the wiser on determining the fakes on his own. He was looking for a set of quick tells rather than understanding good style, bad style and checking fakes databases....

[DonnaML]

2 hours ago, expat said:

Publishing details of fakes and forgeries, is not advisable so as not to warn forgers so they can change the way their forgeries appear. 

I'm not sure I agree. I think it's more important to warn people, and to educate the community of ancient coin collectors -- many of whom, like me, don't have much confidence in their ability to detect any but the more obvious forgeries -- than to worry about what I see as the vanishingly-tiny risk that a currently-active forger operating somewhere in Eastern Europe reads Numisforums for tips on how to improve his work.

[Xeno]

Great post on an important topic. Even experienced collectors will have a lot of trouble spotting a good fake without the right information. I certainly appreciate the discussions of it I see as it helps me to learn and spot them better. The thing that concerns me in the back of my mind is how many fakes have become so good it is basically impossible to differentiate them, hopefully not very many! But it is a risk we take as ancient coin collectors, ultimately the only way to mitigate the risk is to become more educated on the subject.
 

The only thing to do other than that is avoid suspect markets. It is interesting to see what you read about Roma, I have never used them as an auction house and was surprised to see their reputation did not seem to take much of a hit after the gold aureus scandal, but that to me is a red flag and thus not surprising they tried to pull a smooth one on that Side coin. 
 

It is a scary situation out there with unscrupulous auction houses and dealers.

[Xeno]

5 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think it's more important to warn people, and to educate the community of ancient coin collectors -- many of whom, like me, don't have much confidence in their ability to detect any but the more obvious forgeries -- than to worry about what I see as the vanishingly-tiny risk that a currently-active forger operating somewhere in Eastern Europe reads Numisforums for tips on how to improve his work.

I agree with this completely, without the resources of the internet and the very knowledgeable people on it I would have little to no hope of identifying fakes when I saw them. The knowledge in ancient coin collecting is already spread so thin across various, manuscripts, articles, and people’s brains it is already hard enough to access. 
 

[Dafydd]

I have been very grateful over the years on this forum ,and another, to have a  couple of PM messages about a fake that I had not found on other sites despite my research. Having made a major mistake several years ago I know that my enthusiasm sometimes overtakes common sense. Ancient coins are a recent interest of mine in the past eight years having a 40 year interlude from collecting ancients  to pursue other collecting interest so I bow to the fantastic and generously shared experience of others. The PM saves embarrassment although I never considered education as being embarrassing and I would normally share my news. 

Until I retire, my time for studying is split between Ancients and a plethora of other interests including work so I have always been grateful and humbled by the advice I have received. 

The one time I did raise public awareness about a serious legitimate concern about unscrupulous dealings that was brought to my attention, and confirming my own experience, I was severally "rapped across the knuckles" so will  not do that again as this is my hobby not a profession. Normally my philosophy is that "still waters don't make great sailors" but as I want to enjoy this site my appetite for confrontation is now quite low. It is true that "evil prevails when good men do nothing" so I am firmly of the opinion that if a fake is spotted, call it out, just be oblique about naming the source as you will end up having your comments redacted.

 

 

[David Atherton]

IMHO, when a questionable coin is posted here by a member sending a PM is the polite thing to do. 

And I only do that when certainty is 100% with evidence. 

[idesofmarch01]

In the event that a collector has a good faith, supportable belief that a coin being offered at a public auction or by a dealer is a forgery, my opinion is that it's almost a duty to discuss this publicly.  Specifically, a thread along the lines of "I believe that this coin offered by [dealer/auction house] is a forgery for the following reasons:" would be the method for doing this.  It's imperative that the collector can also supply his/her reasoning and facts to support their conclusion, since without it, the discussion is simply a personal suspicion and could be interpreted as an attack on the dealer or auction.

If the coin in question is owned by a private collector, e.g., here on NumisForums, then I think the proper etiquette would be first to contact the collector privately with one's suspicion and reasoning.  I would leave it up to the owner whether or not to take the discussion public.

The best way to expose forgeries and decrease the number of fake coins is by objectively exposing all such forgeries.  Turning a blind eye to a coin that is likely to be non-genuine is rewarding forgers with a victory.

Edited December 4, 2023 by idesofmarch01

[Rand]

Fakes are becoming a major issue. The coin industry and academics must lead the fight against them, and both can do more.

I put effort into learning about fakes and, over the years, have made a small (well, not that small) registry of reported fakes in my collecting area. Staying away from them is my way to reduce the risk. 

Many fakes are apparent, and the detection of dangerous fakes requires expert knowledge. I have seen plenty of comments about fakes, which were inaccurate and weary of forum 'experts'.

NCG does its best not to slab fakes, but it does not provide a warranty for authenticity. The slabs are no excuse for dealers to abstain from responsibility.

Some dealers could have been more responsive to information about fakes. However, a major auction house investigated a previously unknown fake and confirmed the suspicion in response to my reasoning. I no longer see this fake on the market (there are a few from the same dies). Still, this fake never appeared in fake registries known to me.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Rand

[The_Collector]

I agree with the majority. If its a member post, I think a PM is the best first step and asking them if they mind if you comment on the post about the coin being a fake so others can learn.

With regards to an auction house, I think a polite email works and if they still insist on peddling fakes then I think we should all take an active role in posting and naming the house so the rest of us know who not to buy from. I think if they are going to peddle fakes they should pay the price of losing customers. I find it really reprehensible when they know or have good reason to suspect a fake and do nothing about it and think the only way we can "fight" back is by bringing them out into the light.

[expat]

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think it's more important to warn people, and to educate the community of ancient coin collectors -- many of whom, like me, don't have much confidence in their ability to detect any but the more obvious forgeries -- than to worry about what I see as the vanishingly-tiny risk that a currently-active forger operating somewhere in Eastern Europe reads Numisforums for tips on how to improve his work.

A forger doesn´t have to specifically look for this or any other site. Type a search term into google and there are many threads on the subject from here, CT, Forum Ancient coins and others readily available to read. Google will even translate the page languages if requested. Aside from that I agree that knowledge for our own sake is welcome, especially as most of us are unsure enough to categorically say that a coin is a forgery. It was what I meant by "straddling" in my post. Calling attention to something without giving too many details away. Probably should have explained it a little clearer.

[kirispupis]

One thing I've been wondering is whether it would be useful to add a feature to NumisForums to flag upcoming auction items as potentially fake. We'd need a way to qualify it so someone couldn't remove some competition or take revenge on an auction house, but the idea would be to flag fakes for us so even if the auction house doesn't remove it, we'd have an idea which coins to avoid.

Over time, if certain auction houses wind up listing more fakes, it would also be a black eye to them. We may be able to collectively motivate houses to be more proactive about weeding out fakes.

[Hesiod]

I don't usually bother with private collectors, but nowadays I mostly only see them on reddit as I've been not reading as much other media. For auctions, I'll send them an email with the reasoning and call it a day (and whine to people who I might have discussed the coin with if it's ignored)

[John Conduitt]

I wouldn’t be happy if someone told me I had a fake but I’d be a lot less happy if they didn’t. I can make amends and get a real coin instead. Definitely a pm, though, as who likes being humiliated.

Like Donna, I wonder how much notice forgers would take of a more detailed discussion on what to look for. For most coins they aren’t making the money to bother ironing out every sign of fakery - 70-80% of the coins most of us buy are under £100. Many awful fakes continue to be sold on eBay despite displaying every conceivable red flag.

For the more expensive coins, they only need to find one buyer, and there are plenty who don’t research signs of fakes. Such people can get a slabbed fake and feel really good about it.

Talking of eBay, I reported an obvious fake to them today and got a prompt email back:

“We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.”

Apparently, ChatGPT is terrible at spotting fakes too. Maybe it can get a job at a TPG.

[Rand]

From a quick look into NumisBids right now I can see two very well known Anastasius fakes from reputable dealers. Whom do I need to PM?

 

I know the 'right thing' for me would be to reduce my working hours and keep posting dealers. But I do not think this is the right solution to the problem. The abovementioned fakes are well known from 1960th, but what about newer more dangerrous fakes?

I increasingly see fakes of 'Western mints rarities' - many orignianls from the series have never been published. I can stay away from suspicious coins myself, but I am not an expert to keep chasing dealers.

 

[JayAg47]

I think this would be a right thread to ask my opinion that's been bugging me for a while.

So I was after an Antony's legionary denarius, and saw Bing's post on CT of his LEG IIII acquisition, which turned out to be fake, https://www.cointalk.com/threads/marcus-antonius-legion-iiii.300414/

Recently I was looking for other examples of Mark Antony's Leg IIII to compare with one offered by an ebay dealer, and I came across this fake coin hammered for 400 Euros. I'm pretty sure they all share the same dies. 

 

So what would be the right thing to do? 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by JayAg47

[kirispupis]

24 minutes ago, JayAg47 said:

I think this would be a right thread to ask my opinion that's been bugging me for a while.

So I was after an Antony's legionary denarius, and saw Bing's post on CT of his LEG IIII acquisition, which turned out to be fake, https://www.cointalk.com/threads/marcus-antonius-legion-iiii.300414/

Recently I was looking for other examples of Mark Antony's Leg IIII to compare with one offered by an ebay dealer, and I came across this fake coin hammered for 400 Euros. I'm pretty sure they all share the same dies. 

So what would be the right thing to do? 

Personally, I think you've done a great service already posting here. I've avoided this issue primarily because I don't feel comfortable navigating the sea of fakes. However, your post has helped me a bit learn about fakes in general.

That's why I enjoy fakes posts because I learn with each one. I'm far from being adept at catching them, but each of these examples makes me a bit smarter.

In terms of contacting the auction house, the problem is the coin's already been sold. Unless the buyer reads the post I don't think the auction house is going to do anything. If the auction had not yet been held, then you may have gotten them to remove it, but it sounds like few do. I suspect you have better things to do with your time.

[Hrefn]

If I post a known fake, I would be grateful to be informed.  

Last month I bid on 4 solidi in one auction, and won 3 of them.  The auctioneer wrote to inform me that 2 of my three wins came from a source which they now believed to be problematic, and although they could not say for certain those two coins were false, they decided not to proceed with the sale.

One of the coins was a distinctive coin of Zeno.  4.42  grams.  

I have had my eye on this coin for a while.  It is easily recognized by style, and by the distinctive scratch on the reverse. A quick ACS search of the image shows this very coin was sold by Sincona in 2017 for $965,  and later that year was in a CNG auction.  I am not sure if it sold then, and if so, at what price.  However, it was then sold by Roma for $5112, and later by St. James at $1914, before coming to the auction at which I was the high bidder.  

An obverse die match (I believe.  There is more wear so it is difficult to be absolutely certain ) of the Zeno solidus with a different reverse die was sold by CNG in 2014.  

If this coin is fake, it passed through the hands of some of the most professional numismatists without being identified as such.  

The second coin, of Constantine IV, juxtaposed with a coin from my collection for comparison.  My coin is to the left and has been in my collection for 25 years.  The coin on the right would have been an upgrade if the auctioneer had proceeded with the sale.  They share the same obverse die, but the double strike had the effect of obliterating the cross on the emperor’s helmet.   As you can see, the reverse dies are different.  

My questions are these.  Has anyone ever had an auction win (or two) cancelled by the auctioneer ostensibly out of an excess of caution, after the auction was over?  Are these coins real, or fake?  Do I owe the auctioneer a profound debt of gratitude?  Or (speaking uncharitably and hypothetically) was the auction house unhappy with the amount of the winning bids on these two coins? They hammered for 650 British pounds each, which is low, especially considering Roma got $5000 for the Zeno just a few years ago.  Or did other bidders avoid these coins because they are known fakes, and that kept the bidding low?  

Lastly, is MY Constantine IV now a suspect coin?

The whole experience has been most unsettling.  No matter whether these coins are real or false, there is no possible explanation which does not involve dishonesty on some one’s part.  

 

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

2 hours ago, kirispupis said:

it would be useful to add a feature to NumisForums to flag upcoming auction items as potentially fake.

I would be careful with this idea. Very careful. I remember a discussion group (CFDL— Coin Forgery Discussion List)  that existed a few years ago, with the good motivation of detecting counterfeits of ancient coins. Over time, some members of this group went completely off the rails; they condemned an extremely high number of pieces, and on the other hand qualified certain forgeries as being authentic... I would not want our forum to fall into the same excesses...☹️