FIFTY SHADES OF BLUE

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

This topic won’t be easy; I do not own many Roman coins with a BLUE patina. The first coin below was greener but its color changed after soaking in a mixture of vinegar and salt… I read somewhere that chemical fertilizers can cause this reaction on copper coins, also specimens with azurite deposits often have a bluish shade. I also heard that if you want to create an artificial blue patina , you may use cupric nitrate to achieve your goal. PLEASE SHOW ME YOUR BLUE COINS !

 

 

[DonnaML]

1 minute ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

 I also heard that if you want to create an artificial blue patina , you may use cupric nitrate to achieve your goal.

All you have to do to find that out is ask the notorious "A" dealer (from the old Coin Talk "A to Z" thread) what he does to his silver coins to create his instantly recognizable artificial blue patina. As with my Hadrian Aegyptos denarius when it arrived:

Compared to how it looked after I removed the patina by soaking it in the distilled water & baking soda solution that Brad Bowlin suggested to me:

I will check to see if I have any "legitimate" blue patinas.

[Ancient Coin Hunter]

I have a weird Theodosius AE2 that is blue. ex-Doug Smith collection. It looks slightly more greenish in hand but the photos come out blue. Taken outside in the sunlight.

 

[expat]

The only ancient coin I have with a vaguely bluish colour is this one

[shanxi]

Two chinese coins with blue Azurite patina:

 

Ant Nose Money
Chu (440-220 BCE)
Av: "Geistergesicht", die Bedeutung des Schriftzeichens ist unklar
AE, 0.88g, 14.4x9.1mm
Ref.: Hartill 1.4var., FD4var.

 

Yuan Dynasty 

Shun Di 順帝 (Ukhaatu Khan)
Obv: Zhi Zheng Tong Bao 至 正 通 寶
Rev: Rhe for 2 oben, 二 er below
Valuet: 2
year 1350
AE, 5.75g, 27.4mm
Ref.: Hartill 19.108, FD1800, S1109

[ominus1]

...blues kool..iridescent is GREAT! 😄

[ambr0zie]

The blue traces of toning were the main reason I bought this Alexandria tetradrachm - Maximianus. 

[expat]

Some wonderful blues on here. From a non ancient perspective, this coin from Norway is one of 14 the same in the collection I inherited, they are all, and have been, stored the same way and is the only one that has toned. Some beautiful pastel shades front and back, but the highlight is the bust which has toned a vibrant deep blue.

[Qcumbor]

Yeh, true, blue isn't easy.

Here's a Dombes copper coin

Q

[AncientOne]

Blue/green and light blue is as close as I can get.

Pisidia Termessos. 1st century BC. Æ19

Obv: Laureate head of Zeus right.
Rev: Forepart of horse left; KΘ above, thunderbolt to right.
Dated CY 29 (44/3 BC).

 

 

Thrace, Anchialus. AE27. Caracalla. Apollo

Thrace, Anchialus. AE27. Caracalla. AV K M AVP ANTWNINOC, laureate head right / OULPIANWN AGXIALEWN, Apollo standing r. holding patera and laurel-branch. Varbanov (Engl.) 305; AMNG II 515.

 

 

[Prieure de Sion]

 
Manius Marcius; Reign: Roman Republic; Mint: Rome; Date: 134 BC; Nominal: Denarius; Material: Silver; Diameter: 18mm; Weight: 3.94g; Reference: Sydenham 500; Reference: Albert 940; Reference: Crawford RRC 245/1; Obverse: Helmeted head of Roma right; modius behind, denomination mark XVI as monogram below chin; Inscription: -; Translation: -; Reverse: Victory in biga galloping right, holding reins in left hand and whip in right hand. ROMA and moneyer mark below horses with MAR in monogram; both divided by two corn-ears; Inscription: M MAR C RO MA; Translation: Manius Marcius, Roma

 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I only have a couple of photographed ones. I do have another provincial with the same type of patina (but bought 25 years earlier) as the bottom Gordian As, even down to the brownish crud.  The brownish crud seems to also accompany many blue patinas.

Gordian III (238-244). Æ As. Rome, 240-3. R_ SOL RIC IV 297b aqua patina

[filolif]

By far my bluest coin. This Metapontion Distater.

[DonnaML]

After a quick perusal of my coin trays, it seems that the bluest tone on any of my coins or medals for which the color is not merely an artifact of photography, but is actually present in "real life," is on this small 1911 AR medal from the UK commemorating the Investiture of the future Edward VIII as the Prince of Wales:

However, if I were inclined to cheat a little by offering some non-numismatic artifacts, I would say that these are blue as well:

Egypt, pale blue glazed faience amulet of Bastet, the cat goddess, seated on base, loop in back of neck, left ear missing, 26th Dynasty-Ptolemaic period , ca. 663-300 BCE. 34 mm. H.  Purchased from Harmer Rooke, New York City, 2/26/1990.

And there's this reclining lion, which is perhaps more turquoise but still qualifies as blue, I think:

Egypt, glazed blue faience amulet of reclining lion on integral base, suspension loop on back (loop restored), 26th Dynasty, ca. 664-525 BCE. 1 7/8" (47.6 mm.) L.  Purchased 3/1/1991, Royal Athena Galleries, NYC. Published: Royal Athena Galleries, "The Age of Cleopatra" exhibition catalog, Oct. 1988, p. 24 No. 119.

Here is the cover page of the exhibition catalog in which my lion was published, together with the interior page on which the lion is pictured on the far right in the top row, No. 119:

And then there's this small blue faience ushabti:

Egypt, faience ushabti, blue-turquoise color glazed Osirid-type figure, uninscribed, holding crook & flail and wearing tripartite wig & royal beard, bag slung over left shoulder; repaired break at ankles. 30th Dynasty, ca. 378-341 BCE. 3 3/8" H. Purchased 3/29/1986, Royal Athena Galleries, NYC.

 

It isn't unusual for an ushabti never to have been inscribed. By the New Kingdom there were as many 401 ushabtis in each tomb (theoretically, 365 workers and 36 overseers, although the latter disappeared eventually). Accordingly, it's my understanding that the majority were always uninscribed. (Sometimes, forgers take genuine uninscribed ushabtis and apply fake hieroglyphic inscriptions -- often nonsensical, I believe -- to make them more valuable.) Also by the New Kingdom, mass production using molds was already common. See the summary of the history of ushabtis at https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/shabti/. 

Finally, I have this blue scarab of a lion and sun disk:

For further details, see my post at https://www.numisforums.com/topic/199-a-thread-for-my-antiquities/page/3/#comment-5239 .

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by DonnaML

[Marsyas Mike]

Years ago I bought a low-grade sestertius of Antoninus Pius (quadriga reverse) on eBay.  I was intrigued by the unusual blue "patina" and the low price:  

After getting it in hand...my hand warmed up the patina and it grew tacky.  A dab of hand sanitizer later, and I discovered the coin had been painted blue:

I left a few fragments of blue in some of the declivities to show it's tawdry, fraudulent blue past.  

Here is a truly blue coin in my collection, a follis of Phocas:

 

[hotwheelsearl]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:37 PM, DonnaML said:

All you have to do to find that out is ask the notorious "A" dealer (from the old Coin Talk "A to Z" thread) what he does to his silver coins to create his instantly recognizable artificial blue patina. As with my Hadrian Aegyptos denarius when it arrived:

Compared to how it looked after I removed the patina by soaking it in the distilled water & baking soda solution that Brad Bowlin suggested to me:

I will check to see if I have any "legitimate" blue patinas.

Donna, I've gotten very similar results with egg toning - hard boil an egg, mash it up, seal it in a tupperware with a silver coin. a few minutes later, a "beautiful" artificial patina forms! It's a great way to obscure surface cleaning marks or defects...

[DonnaML]

2 minutes ago, hotwheelsearl said:

Donna, I've gotten very similar results with egg toning - hard boil an egg, mash it up, seal it in a tupperware with a silver coin. a few minutes later, a "beautiful" artificial patina forms! It's a great way to obscure surface cleaning marks or defects...

What color is this "egg patina"?

[hotwheelsearl]

6 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

What color is this "egg patina"?

I've gotten results that sort of look like an oil slick - blue, yellow, orangish. The longer I leave a coin in, the more blue it gets, until eventually it just goes black.

(pls keep in mind I haven't ever defrauded anybody with a fake tone, I just think it's fun to do on harshly cleaned modern coins or trashy ancients that will never get sold)

[hotwheelsearl]

This looks very blue in hand, trust me! Unusual for sestertii to get this blue, typically I feel like they go any color but blue.

[Salomons Cat]

2 hours ago, DonnaML said:

What color is this "egg patina"?

I wanted to find that out, too. Thats why I did some experiments with cleaning and toning on the obverse of 2 coins that I got cheap. I didn't have time to work on the reverses yet. The egg toning looks a bit special. Can be anything between light rainbow toning and deep blue.
I find it really hard to define what kind of toning is "natural" and what is "artificial" because egg toning uses the same chemical process as natural toning. But I'm quite sure that the coins that circulated 1800 years ago usually did not have a rainbow or blue toning. That's why I think that you could certainly call this toning artificial. Anyway; here are the results from my experiments.

Julia Mamaea, before cleaning (I mainly used ammonium thiosulfate):


Julia and Gordy after cleaning and egg toning:

But if a coin already has such a kind of toning I would not try to remove it. I believe that this would damage the surface, even if you cannot see it with bare eyes.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Salomons Cat

[Octavius]

 My blue frog Aes grave from Tuder (Todi)...

 

More blue azurite on Aes Grave Semis and Triens...

[hotwheelsearl]

8 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

I wanted to find that out, too. Thats why I did some experiments with cleaning and toning on the obverse of 2 coins that I got cheap. I didn't have time to work on the reverses yet. The egg toning looks a bit special. Can be anything between light rainbow toning and deep blue.
I find it really hard to define what kind of toning is "natural" and what is "artificial" because egg toning uses the same chemical process as natural toning. But I'm quite sure that the coins that circulated 1800 years ago usually did not have a rainbow or blue toning. That's why I think that you could certainly call this toning artificial. Anyway; here are the results from my experiments.

Julia Mamaea, before cleaning (I mainly used ammonium thiosulfate):


Julia and Gordy after cleaning and egg toning:

But if a coin already has such a kind of toning I would not try to remove it. I believe that this would damage the surface, even if you cannot see it with bare eyes.

 

Nice! I am very curious how your tone will evolve over time. In my experience, my egg toners tend to turn much darker and much uglier in just a few days or weeks.

[Salomons Cat]

2 hours ago, hotwheelsearl said:

Nice! I am very curious how your tone will evolve over time. In my experience, my egg toners tend to turn much darker and much uglier in just a few days or weeks.

My 2 egg toned coins still look like the same. Probably because they're in coin capsules. But I believe that it's not so relevant if they become darker or not, anyway. It is a lot more important that you create an even toning (and not a "spotty" one). If the toning is very even, then the coins will appear attractive even if the toning gets darker. 

To achieve that, I would not follow the standard advice from youtube for the egg toning. I have seen how they put coins inside a plastic container together with an egg. They even put some egg directly on coins. That looked horrible. Not only because this can only produce a spotty toning but also because eggs certainly contain some chloride that should not get into contact with silver coins.
I would start by cleaning the coin that you want to tone as well as possible with a cotton swab and with acetone. This removes oil and dirt from the surface that would disturb the toning. Then I would make a scrambled egg and let it cool until there is no visible steam anymore. Then you can put the coin in a kitchen strainer and hold it above the scrambled egg for 2 minutes. There will be a very even toning afterwards and the coin will still look good if it becomes a bit darker. 

[hotwheelsearl]

2 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

My 2 egg toned coins still look like the same. Probably because they're in coin capsules. But I believe that it's not so relevant if they become darker or not, anyway. It is a lot more important that you create an even toning (and not a "spotty" one). If the toning is very even, then the coins will appear attractive even if the toning gets darker. 

To achieve that, I would not follow the standard advice from youtube for the egg toning. I have seen how they put coins inside a plastic container together with an egg. They even put some egg directly on coins. That looked horrible. Not only because this can only produce a spotty toning but also because eggs certainly contain some chloride that should not get into contact with silver coins.
I would start by cleaning the coin that you want to tone as well as possible with a cotton swab and with acetone. This removes oil and dirt from the surface that would disturb the toning. Then I would make a scrambled egg and let it cool until there is no visible steam anymore. Then you can put the coin in a kitchen strainer and hold it above the scrambled egg for 2 minutes. There will be a very even toning afterwards and the coin will still look good if it becomes a bit darker. 

Great advice! I did the plastic container version, but didn't put any egg on top. I did this on a Philippine peso, it started out with some beautiful blue fringe tone, but then got dark and ugly pretty shortly thereafter. Probably because I didn't clean the surfaces first.

 

The egg tasted good though

[Salomons Cat]

43 minutes ago, hotwheelsearl said:

Great advice! I did the plastic container version, but didn't put any egg on top. I did this on a Philippine peso, it started out with some beautiful blue fringe tone, but then got dark and ugly pretty shortly thereafter. Probably because I didn't clean the surfaces first.

 

The egg tasted good though

I don't think that Roman coins and modern silver coins can be compared, because they contain different amounts of copper. Even coins from the Roman Republic will not tone in the same way as coins from the later Roman Empire, usually.
The vapor from the scrambled egg contains sulfide and the toning happens because the sulfide ions attach to the surface of the coin. The thickness of the silver sulfide layer determines which wavelengths of light get absorbed and reflected and therefore it produces different colors. A very thin layer causes a yellow toning, a thicker layer causes red, blue, violett and when it's very thick it becomes black. What is also black is copper sulfide, so it makes the coins dark. I believe that a Phillippine peso probably contains a higher amount of copper than any Roman silver coin, so I wouldn't be surprised if the egg toning doesn't work so well with it.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Salomons Cat