Benefactor kirispupis Posted October 16, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted October 16, 2023 Today, the ruins of ancient Olous on Crete may be visited, but you'll need to don a snorkel and fins to see them, since they were submerged around the 3rd century CE. The idea of a sunken city fascinates me, and a coin of Olous - even though rare - was high on my list. Crete, Olous Circa 300-270 BCE 11mm 1.25g Obverse: Draped bust of Artemis Britomartis right Reverse: Ethnic above dolphin right; all within incuse square BMC 2, Svoronos, Numismatique 7; SNG Copenhagen 509; Traeger 288 How it got that way is an interesting story. It mostly involves a guy named Nick, a very ambitious man, who dreamed of making their olympic swim team. Each day he practiced in the harbor along the narrow strip of land that joined mainland Crete to Kalydon Peninsula. Everyone in the city thought he was ridiculous. "Swimming won't be an olympic sport for another 1600 years!" people told him, but that didn't dissuade Nick. What did challenge him, however, was the fact that he didn't have an olympic-sized pool. How could he ever hope to measure his qualifying time if his pool was non-standard? So, Nick prayed every day to Zeus. He visited every temple of his in Crete including the Dikteon Cave where he was born, and of all the men in Greece, no one sacrificed more to Zeus than Nick. Eventually, Zeus began to feel sorry for him. Many prayed for outrageous things, so an olympic swimming pool wasn't much of an ask. Finally, he charged a group of workers to build it. In order to maximize the surprise, they set to work at night. The only problem were the dimensions. Zeus had told them it should be a bit under 110 cubits in length and 55 cubits in width, but a cubit was a non-standard unit. How big exactly should it be? There was also the issue of zoning, since the city was tightly packed on the isthmus and free space for such a pool was a non-starter. To address these questions, the workers utilized a sturdy-looking retaining wall and erred on the side of making the pool too large. However, the owner of that retaining wall, Phil, had never bothered obtaining the right permits and when the force of the pool water was placed against it, the entire thing broke. With the city quickly submerging, the workers decided to call it quits and skedaddled. The next morning, the mayor of Olous woke to a sharp knock at his door. It was a dolphin asking to borrow a cup of sugar. The mayor, still quite groggy, obliged the request and went back to bed. He woke again a half hour later and was perturbed to discover his shower wasn't working. When he then noticed that all his towels were wet, reality arrived. Everything was underwater. Everyone was of course furious at Nick because his pool had destroyed the city, but there wasn't anything they could do short of charging tourists to snorkel over their town. On the obverse of this coin is an image of Britomartis, who was a goddess worshipped in much of Crete. Legend has that she was chased by King Minos and jumped into a fisherman's net. For some reason, the fisherman, instead of inquiring why a goddess was in his net, sailed all the way to Aegina, where they also began worshipping her. Diodorus Siculus called BS on that tale, though, since he rightly pointed out that Britomartis or her best friend, Artemis, could have vaporized Minos whenever she wanted. Some may think that she might have just had a thing for fishermen, but as a virgin goddess of chastity, that was unlikely. Really, back then you could either travel between islands by boat or by flying horse, but the horses were all union members and the fares were probably crazy. A temple to Britomartis, complete with a wooden statue, existed in Olous. Since she hung around with Artemis a lot, and neither was very welcoming of guys hanging around to engrave their portraits, they eventually came to be associated as the same goddess. Feel free to show your coins of Crete, Britomartis, or Artemis! 20 1 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisimo Posted October 16, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 16, 2023 Cool coin and enjoyable write up @kirispupis. A note on Britomartis and Minos is that Minos was probably originally a god of Crete that was demoted when Zeus displaced him. Some evidence for this is the fact that his wife Pasiphae was the daughter of Helios and an Ocean nymph and therefor should have been a goddess in her own right even within the logic of the story that survives. The fact that she isn’t indicates that she was the consort goddess of Minos who was probably associated with the bull. Therefore the flight of Britomartis from Minos makes a lot more sense as a memory of an early tradition. In any case I love Cretan coins! I’ve already shown my Europa so many times that I’ll change it up and post my favorite Artemis. 11 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted October 16, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) Excellent write up. I love your modern ancient mythology! And great coin. Cretan coin: CRETE, KNOSSOS. AE (2.54 g), approx. 200-67 BC BC: head of the bearded Zeus to the right. Back: Labyrinth between ΚΝΩΣΙ / ΩΝ. Svoronos, Crete 116.2.00, Lindgren. Nice. Ex BAC Numismatics 2/9/20201 And some Artemii: Edited October 16, 2023 by Ryro 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted October 17, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted October 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, Curtisimo said: Cool coin and enjoyable write up @kirispupis. A note on Britomartis and Minos is that Minos was probably originally a god of Crete that was demoted when Zeus displaced him. Some evidence for this is the fact that his wife Pasiphae was the daughter of Helios and an Ocean nymph and therefor should have been a goddess in her own right even within the logic of the story that survives. The fact that she isn’t indicates that she was the consort goddess of Minos who was probably associated with the bull. Therefore the flight of Britomartis from Minos makes a lot more sense as a memory of an early tradition. Thanks for the clarification! This makes a lot more sense now. I've also been enjoying picking up coins from Crete. Here's what I have so far (other than Olous above and my types of Alexander). Crete, Kydonia Circa 4th century BCE Æ 1.89g, 13mm, 9h Young male head to left Hound seated to right, [KY]ΔΩ around. Svoronos, Numismatique 49; SNG Copenhagen 412 Crete, Aptera 3rd-2nd centuries BCE AE 5.72g D/ T. fém. à g., coiffée de la stéphané. R/ Torche allumée. De part et d'autre, ΑΠΤΑ-Ρ[ΑΙΩΝ]. Svoronos, Crète, 16, pl. I, 20 Crete, Lyttos 3rd century BCE AE 1.81g D/ T. l. de Zeus à d. R/ ΛY Aigle à d., les ailes ouvertes. Svoronos, Crète, 81, pl. XXII, 12 Crete, Polyrhenion circa 330-280 BCE AE 11mm, 1.14g Round shield; in center, bull's head facing Π-O/Λ-V; spear point SNG Copenhagen 534 Ex Chistopher Morcom collection Ex Edward P. Warren collection Ex CNG 2007 Crete, Priansus (Priansos) Circa 320-270 BCE 18mm 4.70g Obverse: Head of Artemis right, wearing earring and necklace. Reverse: PPIANCIWN, palm tree; rudder to left, dolphin facing downward to right. Svoronos, Numismatique 17; Joy 493; SNG Copenhagen 548; BMC 12 Crete, Eleuthernai (eleutherna) Circa 3rd Century BCE 16mm 3.68g Obverse: Laureate head of Apollo right. Reverse: Apollo seated left on omphalos, holding stone, kithara at side; monogram to left. Svoronos, Numismatique 38; SNG Copenhagen 433-4,. BMC 12 Crete. Itanos AR Drachm / Eagle 320-280 BCE 17.81mm 4.81g Obverse: Helmeted head of Athena left Reverse: ITANIΩN, eagle standing right, head reverted, Triton holding trident in the right field SNG Copenhagen 475 Crete, Axos Circa 3rd - 2nd cent BCE AE 5.56g, 17.9mm, 6h Diademed head of Zeus right. Reverse.Α - Ξ either side of winged thunderbolt. SNG Cop.354 Crete, Phalasarna 3rd - 2nd century BCE AE 11mm 1.06g Dolphin left / Large Φ with spear-like tip. Lindgren Coll. II 1764 Crete, Knossos Circa 300-270 BCE Æ 13.5mm, 3.35 g, 12h Head of female right / Head of Zeus right. Svoronos, Numismatique 80; SNG Copenhagen 371 Crete, Gortyna Circa 250-221 BCE Æ 17mm 4.1g Europa seated right in tree, lifting her drapery; to left, eagle standing left, head right; border of rays / Europa seated right, lifting her drapery, on bull running left; all within wreath. Jackson pl. 12, 2; Svoronos, Numismatique 109; Joy 466; SNG Copenhagen 447; BMC 45 Crete, Phaistos Circa 330-320 BCE AR Stater 23 mm, 11.84 g, 11 h Herakles standing front, head to right, resting his right hand on club set on ground and holding bow in his left; to left, lion's skin hanging from tree; to right, coiled serpent above laurel branch. Rev. Bull walking to left; all within laurel wreath. Le Rider, Crétoises, pl. III, 22 (same obverse die). Svoronos, Numismatique, 17. SNG Copenhagen 512 Ex CNG 2022 Ex Trausnitz Collection Ex Obolos 2021 Ex Künker 2005 Ex Künker October 2001 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtisimo Posted October 17, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, Ryro said: Excellent write up. I love your modern ancient mythology! And great coin. Cretan coin: CRETE, KNOSSOS. AE (2.54 g), approx. 200-67 BC BC: head of the bearded Zeus to the right. Back: Labyrinth between ΚΝΩΣΙ / ΩΝ. Svoronos, Crete 116.2.00, Lindgren. Nice. Ex BAC Numismatics 2/9/20201 And some Artemii: Love that labyrinth Ryan. I am going to have to pick one of those up one of these days. 8 minutes ago, kirispupis said: Crete, Phaistos Circa 330-320 BCE AR Stater 23 mm, 11.84 g, 11 h Herakles standing front, head to right, resting his right hand on club set on ground and holding bow in his left; to left, lion's skin hanging from tree; to right, coiled serpent above laurel branch. Rev. Bull walking to left; all within laurel wreath. Le Rider, Crétoises, pl. III, 22 (same obverse die). Svoronos, Numismatique, 17. SNG Copenhagen 512 Ex CNG 2022 Ex Trausnitz Collection Ex Obolos 2021 Ex Künker 2005 Ex Künker October 2001 Love this Phaistos! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted October 17, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2023 @kirispupis fantastic selection of coins. I remember some old boy saying to me once when discussing coins "Greeks coins are hard. Can be very hard. But Crete, that's territory for the hardiest of all". I suppose he's sort of right! There was a good lecture on Crete that I just watched this weekend posted on the ANS a few days ago. Specifically on Phaistos but it covers the island somewhat too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kUttixzWrY 9 hours ago, kirispupis said: On the obverse of this coin is an image of Britomartis Here is another image of her. She was also known as Dictyna, the lady of the nets, hence I assume the name of the cave. The net story you discuss is the reason there is a huge group of spiders named after her too, the Dictynidae. A few Cretan coins are signed, which appeals to me. This one is the only one currently known by this artist, and is also covered in Georges Le Rider's book Monnaies Cretoises. It also features the famous Cretan archer personified as Cydon, and is from the well-known Phaestus hoard. Cydonia. Stater, obverse die signed by Neuantos (10.75g), ca. 330 BC. Le Rider 1966, 9.18 (this coin); Svoronos 9.3. Very rare. (IGCH 152). 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted October 17, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 17, 2023 During the Mithradatic wars seven Cretan cities copied the New style and it was long thought that Marcus Lucullus had called in at Crete to collect ships for Sulla and whilst he was there supplied silver for this minting of New Style copies. It is now thought that the Cretan aristocracy from the beginning supported Mithradates not Rome-as evidenced by a differing reading of the sources and the existence of seemingly Star and Crescent AE coinage from the city of Kydonia. Simply these Cretan New Styles celebrate anti-Roman Athens and Athens must have been seen as a leading, if though symbolic, light in the wider Greek koinon. It is the Mithradatic wars that caused the demise of the Greek world , to be subsumed into the Roman provincial world. And yet so little is written on this pivotal moment. The scholars still squabble over the Roman -Cretan relations when it obvious the Romans were taking revenge under Metellus! Sadly none of the Cretan pseudo- NewStyles are mine. And I appear to be the only person interested! 8 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted October 17, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 17, 2023 Does anybody actually know anything about this time c 90 BC to 50 BC in Crete. The silver coins before then mainly appear to be overstrikes...why? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsyas Mike Posted October 17, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 17, 2023 I only have one ancient coin from Crete - it appears to have a Marc Antony connection. Cicero complained about this issuer Kydas (Cyda) - "Cyda of Crete; a prodigy even in that island; the most audacious and abandoned of men. But even suppose he were not so. Does he understand Latin? Is he qualified by birth and station to be a judge? Does he—which is most important—does he know anything about our laws and manners? Is he even acquainted with any of the citizens?" (see below). This was one of those cruddy unattributed eBay finds that turned out more interesting than I'd thought it would be: Crete, Knossos Æ 28 (c. 40-30 B.C.) Kydas, magistrate Laureate head of Zeus facing right, thunderbolt before chin / [K - Y] / Δ - A / Σ , in three lines across field, eagle standing right, open wings. RPC I, 224, 934; Svoronos 142; SNG Copenhagen 388. (9.78 grams / 28 mm) eBay June 2020 "...but in the 30s B.C. Crete seems to have been governed by the confederation of the Kretaieis, under the supervision of Kydas the Cretarch. The whole 'dossier' (Rouanet-Liesenfelt 1984) shows a person by this name appearing on inscriptions (IC IV.250, IV.251), on coins (Svoronos 1890, 334 no. 1 and pl. 32 fig. 1; Raven 1938, 154-8, Burnett et al. 1992, 222), and also mentioned in Cicero (Phil. 5.13). Rouanet-Leisenfelt believes that Marc Antony created this confederation and chose Kydas to rule it, probably between 43 BC (the end of Brutus' proconsulate and Actium). If Kydas was ruling Crete, or a part of it, Crete and Cyrencaica were not united...The uncertainty of the date of the coin issues presented above, the vagueness of Kydas' chronology, and the contradiction of sources have led several scholars to date the union between Crete and Cyrenaica only to 27 B.C...." "From Cyrene to Gortyn. Notes on the Relationship Between Crete and Cyrenaica under Roman Domination (1st Century BC-4th Century AD)" by François Chevrollier. Published in Roman Crete: New Perspectives by Jane E. Francis, Anna Kouremenos. Philippics, 5.13, Cicero translated by C. D. Yonge 13 I do long to plead in behalf of some defendant before that tribunal—Cyda of Crete; a prodigy even in that island; the most audacious and abandoned of men. But even suppose he were not so. Does he understand Latin? Is he qualified by birth and station to be a judge? Does he—which is most important—does he know anything about our laws and manners? Is he even acquainted with any of the citizens? Why, Crete is better known to you than Rome is to Cyda. In fact, the selection and appointment of the judges has usually been confined to our own citizens. But who ever knew, or could possibly have known this Gortynian judge? For Lysiades, the Athenian, we most of us do know. For he is the son of Phædrus, an eminent philosopher. And, besides, he is a witty man, so that he will be able to get on very well with Marcus Curius, who will be one of his colleagues, and with whom he is in the habit of playing. https://lexundria.com/cic_phil/5.13/y 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted October 17, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 17, 2023 https://www.academia.edu/67107486/Associating_the_image_with_the_myth_on_ancient_Cretan_coins_Three_case_studies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted October 17, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2023 4 hours ago, NewStyleKing said: Does anybody actually know anything about this time c 90 BC to 50 BC in Crete. The silver coins before then mainly appear to be overstrikes...why? Not a lot, no. That's one of the huge issues with Crete - it really is a frontier for study. This article from the British School at Knossos tells us that that err we really don't know very much. https://web.archive.org/web/20040913081259/http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_n11_v45/ai_17471758 I have various numismatic books that can also tell me we know very little! As for overstruck coins, that was a persistent feature of Cypriot coinage from early times, and is usually explained away by scarcity of silver except when Cretan mercenaries were active abroad and brought it back. One of the problems with dielinks etc is the endless recycling of coins, initially on Aegina and then overstriking overstrikes etc. Some of the "best" as in most expensive coins from Crete, eg Talus, are often overstuck. Other main theories about overstrikes invoke Gresham's Law in their explanations presuming some of the unusual weight standards or shifting weight standards (even the Aeginetic standard was followed differently in different mints at the same time) were "bad" - - this seems a bit grasping at straws. Another main argument is that there were a huge number of small cities on the island (there were really a lot more than we know from coinage alone) and rivalry was sometimes expressed in overstriking rivals. This though would imply far more mints than we know, and is in the straw grasping bucket too. I believe it was mostly early lack of silver and then an ingrained habit, abetted by the shifting standards. I may be slightly behind the curve as in that ANS link I posted above the presenter bemoans the lack of written research before showing a slide of a bunch of very recent books. That said Svoronos's Numismatique de la Crete ancienne from 1890 is still a "standard work". In brighter news, much of this may change as there are huge areas of Crete that have been little studied yet archeologically. There should be much to learn. 6 hours ago, NewStyleKing said: And I appear to be the only person interested! There are/were at least 3 of us- I saved an old article a while ago that discusses this. Old as in it discusses current conversations the author is having with Sir Arthur Evans!! I found a copy online that has most of the information too, as mine isn't with me. This link should work - https://tinyurl.com/mtv6jftn 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted October 17, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2023 This works - https://www.jstor.org/stable/40960151 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted October 17, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted October 17, 2023 20 hours ago, Deinomenid said: Cydonia. Stater, obverse die signed by Neuantos (10.75g), ca. 330 BC. Le Rider 1966, 9.18 (this coin); Svoronos 9.3. Very rare. (IGCH 152). Is that your coin or just the example? It's an amazing piece. For the most part, I'm sticking to the bronzes since some of the Crete staters are in the hundreds of thousands... 20 hours ago, Deinomenid said: @kirispupis fantastic selection of coins. I remember some old boy saying to me once when discussing coins "Greeks coins are hard. Can be very hard. But Crete, that's territory for the hardiest of all". I suppose he's sort of right! I've found that Crete is one of the toughest areas. The problem is that even the most common mints like Knossos are difficult to obtain. There are other regions with cities just as difficult or more to find, but they at least have a few easily-obtainable mints. 6 hours ago, NewStyleKing said: https://www.academia.edu/67107486/Associating_the_image_with_the_myth_on_ancient_Cretan_coins_Three_case_studies This looks like a very interesting article. Looking forward to reading it in my spare time! 6 hours ago, Marsyas Mike said: I only have one ancient coin from Crete - it appears to have a Marc Antony connection. Cicero complained about this issuer Kydas (Cyda) - "Cyda of Crete; a prodigy even in that island; the most audacious and abandoned of men. But even suppose he were not so. Does he understand Latin? Is he qualified by birth and station to be a judge? Does he—which is most important—does he know anything about our laws and manners? Is he even acquainted with any of the citizens?" (see below). Great pickup of a coin with significant history! 22 hours ago, Ryro said: CRETE, KNOSSOS. AE (2.54 g), approx. 200-67 BC BC: head of the bearded Zeus to the right. Back: Labyrinth between ΚΝΩΣΙ / ΩΝ. Svoronos, Crete 116.2.00, Lindgren. Nice. Ex BAC Numismatics 2/9/20201 That Knossos is a great coin. I haven't tried for a labyrinth (read recently that the word itself is believed to come from Crete) and this is a very nice example. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor rNumis Posted October 17, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted October 17, 2023 M&M Basel had a specialized Crete sale...I think it was 66 (1984). I have a pdf if anyone wants a copy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted October 17, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2023 Great entertaining and interesting post @kirispupis, thanks! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted October 17, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted October 17, 2023 39 minutes ago, kirispupis said: Is that your coin Luckily yes, but I promise you it was very very far off anything like that price given its condition! The ones of Talus in good condition are mindblowingly expensive. 18 minutes ago, rNumis said: I have a pdf if anyone wants a copy Yes please! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor rNumis Posted October 18, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted October 18, 2023 @Deinomenid I've dropped it off here: https://www.rnumis.com/downloads/MMBASEL_19841022_rnumis.pdf Just FYI, it's quite large (80MB) 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted October 18, 2023 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 hour ago, rNumis said: @Deinomenid I've dropped it off here: https://www.rnumis.com/downloads/MMBASEL_19841022_rnumis.pdf Just FYI, it's quite large (80MB) Thanks! This added five cities I wasn't aware of... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmarcovan Posted October 19, 2023 · Member Share Posted October 19, 2023 "Sunken city" definitely has a romantic ring to it. One wonders how many of those coins now sleep in the deep... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted January 5 · Supporter Share Posted January 5 On 10/16/2023 at 7:37 PM, Curtisimo said: In any case I love Cretan coins! Friday 19th 1pm NY this enigmatic world might become a little clearer with the ANS Round Table on it- for members. Claudia Devoto (Università di Roma La Sapienza) will present her research on the coinage of Knossos, reviewing the coin series produced by the city from the opening of the mint until the Hellenistic age and contextualizing the city’s coin production within the broader historical and archaeological context of Knossos. While the earliest phases of this city have been thoroughly investigated, little is known about the Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic age. The analysis of coin production, together with the review of archaeological, epigraphical, historical data, allows to shed light on some aspects of the economic and social dynamics of the city, offering at the same time a privileged point of view on some peculiar features of Cretan coinage such as overstriking, countermarking, and change of weight standard 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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