Constantine X double weighted Scyphate Miliaresion?

[ela126]

Hello All,

Happy to have discovered some more Byzantine enthusiasts. I’ve been collecting Byzantine for about 2.5 years after a departure from my American collection.

One interesting coin I’ve come across is what seems to be a coin that doesn’t exist.

The SB 1847 gold Histamenon Nomisma is a well known coin. I have found on wildwinds the silver version exists, labeled as var (2). Example listed on the website states a 2.57g weight. This is the only example I’ve found.

What I have come across is is what I think are 2 planchets (if you’d call them that) minted together, to form a double weight silver version. 5.34g. I came across this coin in a ANACS slab mentioning Nicephorus Botantes, which is incorrect.

XRF analysis came back as

96.4% silver

3.6% copper

have any of you come across a standard silver version? Has anyone ever seen a coin doubled up like this? I’m leaning toward it being genuine, but it’s very odd.

Glad to be part of the group

 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

Fake, sorry. Stay away

[sand]

In my non-expert opinion, the edge of the coin, seems similar to the edge of an electrotype fake, in which the 2 sides (obverse and reverse) are manufactured separately, and then glued together. Museums used to create electrotype fakes, for various reasons (displays for multiple museums? souvenirs? I don't remember exactly). However, I'm not an expert in the areas of electrotype fakes, or Byzantine miliaresions. Here are a couple of web pages, which discuss electrotype fakes, and which have some examples of electrotype fakes. On the 1st link, scroll down, to see the examples which say "electrotype".

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=39 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=electrotype 

Edited August 24, 2023 by sand

[ela126]

40 minutes ago, sand said:

In my non-expert opinion, the edge of the coin, seems similar to the edge of an electrotype fake, in which the 2 sides (obverse and reverse) are manufactured separately, and then glued together. Museums used to create electrotype fakes, for various reasons (displays for multiple museums? souvenirs? I don't remember exactly). However, I'm not an expert in the areas of electrotype fakes, or Byzantine miliaresions. Here are a couple of web pages, which discuss electrotype fakes, and which have some examples of electrotype fakes. On the 1st link, scroll down, to see the examples which say "electrotype".

appreciate this guidance. admittedly, i'm skeptical as well. the obverse seems especially bad (mushy) and until i came across the 1847 Var 2 on wildwilds, Constantine X - Byzantine Coinage - WildWinds.com, i was certain it was a fake. Now i'm not sure, and the XRF data and weight does lend itself toward genuine, but again not sure. It's plausible 2 plachets could have been loaded into the die together and minted, fusing them, but the weight being drastically off would be recalled and melted i'd assume.. 

in the end i bought this for $175 from Heritage as it was in an ANACS slab, i've been entertained for that value at least, even if it is fake.

[Hrefn]

You have likely already checked to see if the ANACS slab is genuine, but if it is not then I do not see much need to investigate further.  I know slabs of the other TGPS are faked on occasion, so it would not surprise me to see ANACS imitated also.  Fake slab would mean fake coin in this case.   It defies probability that a unique oddball coin would be stuck into a fake slab.  

If the slab is authentic, ANACS should be ashamed.   That coin is clearly, real or not, obviously of Constantine X.  Then to have such an odd weight pass by without comment! 

I hope it is a double planchet rarity of Constantine X, or an off metal trial strike for the histamenon nomisma.   But I think the odds favor a cast from a transfer die.  

[ela126]

8 minutes ago, Hrefn said:

f the slab is authentic, ANACS should be ashamed.   That coin is clearly, real or not, obviously of Constantine X.  Then to have such an odd weight pass by without comment! 

Yes, that was my first step, and it was legitamately graded by ANACS.

https://portal.anacs.com/Verify/CertVerification.aspx?cert=7351209

How they got it so wrong, i don't know. the KWN is pretty clearly Constantine 9 or 10. I reached out to them with zero reply.

In the end i don't know if there will be a definitive answer, unless someone has an similiar coin with establish and trusted proveanance. 

[ela126]

Looking further at the forum ancient coin seams, specifically for electrotypes, it seems more plausible this is a fake, and not the double weighted Miliaresion. A shame but i wonder if it can be determined when/where it was made.. some effort and care was used. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by ela126

[Deinomenid]

2 hours ago, ela126 said:

https://portal.anacs.com/Verify/CertVerification.aspx?cert=7351209

How can you tell it is the same coin from that link? I can't see the image, so they  may  have  just take the number. Unless you can see the coin online,  in which can my apologies!

[Edessa]

Unfortunately, the surfaces look similar to the SB 1848 that I purchased and posted earlier. The same casts had also been sold by both CNG and Roma as genuine.

Constantine X Ducas (1059-1067). FAKE EL Histamenon Nomisma (27mm, 2.81g). Constantinople. Obv: + IhS IXS RCX - REGNANTINM; Christ Pantokrator enthroned facing. Rev: + KωN RACI - O DOVKAC / M - Q.; Constantine standing facing, holding globus cruciger, being crowned and blessed by the Theotokos (Virgin Mary). Ref: cf. DOC 2; cf. SB 1848. Good Very Fine. Ex Bertolami eAuction 113 (13 Mar 2022), Lot 788. Note: This is probably a cast as it is a die match with no striking differences to one sold by CNG (e236, Lot 534) and one sold by Roma in E-Sale 7, Lot 1312. This coin is significantly lighter than both of those examples but has slightly more detail. An area of edge filing also exists.

[ela126]

20 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

How can you tell it is the same coin from that link? I can't see the image, so they  may  have  just take the number. Unless you can see the coin online,  in which can my apologies!

there is no picture available. Only recently have ANACS and NGC began imagining their coins, and PCGS only has been doing it about 15 years now. So all older slabs are unimaged.

In this case one just has to accept that no one has goes out of their way to fake an ultra uncommon, and frankly not terribly expenesive coin. The slab was sold through Heritage auctions and does seem legitamate, i have the internal pices and the all seem fine. (ANACS fake slabs are almost unheard of, everyone makes fake PCGS slabbed coins if anything)

Edited August 24, 2023 by ela126

[ela126]

18 minutes ago, Edessa said:

Unfortunately, the surfaces look similar to the SB 1848 that I purchased and posted earlier. The same casts had also been sold by both CNG and Roma as genuine.

Constantine X Ducas (1059-1067). FAKE EL Histamenon Nomisma (27mm, 2.81g). Constantinople. Obv: + IhS IXS RCX - REGNANTINM; Christ Pantokrator enthroned facing. Rev: + KωN RACI - O DOVKAC / M - Q.; Constantine standing facing, holding globus cruciger, being crowned and blessed by the Theotokos (Virgin Mary). Ref: cf. DOC 2; cf. SB 1848. Good Very Fine. Ex Bertolami eAuction 113 (13 Mar 2022), Lot 788. Note: This is probably a cast as it is a die match with no striking differences to one sold by CNG (e236, Lot 534) and one sold by Roma in E-Sale 7, Lot 1312. This coin is significantly lighter than both of those examples but has slightly more detail. An area of edge filing also exists.

So the fakes are out there, this is further evidence that the coin is likely no good

[ela126]

While ANACS had zero reply after 3 attempts with pictures and descriptions (I’ve had this coin for a year). I contacted Heritage asking what can be done. Within 24 hours I am being offered a refund of the cracked out coin, however I must return the coin to them (I presume to go into their black cabinet) before the ~$200 refund is given. They are sending me a label and mailer to return to them now.

I only wonder if the coin as a curiosity is worth keeping instead of recieving the refund… any thoughts?

 

[Hrefn]

I would rather spend a refund on a genuine coin which I would enjoy owning,    Maintaining a black cabinet is a pursuit which diverts your limited funds from building up your legitimate collection.  Why keep a fake coin when you could get a real coin?

It is reasonable for major dealers to have a black cabinet, because they are likely unable to get a refund from the person who sold the coin to them.  Since they are stuck with the false coin, they might as well derive some value from it as an educational tool.   And the point of the lesson is, “Do not buy this!”   No one maintains a black cabinet to become a more efficient purchaser of fakes, but rather to avoid them.

The only time it is reasonable spend funds for fakes is if the cost is trivial, or if like so-called jeweler’s copies you are buying for bullion value.  Two hundred dollars is not trivial, and the bullion value of your coin is negligible.   Take the refund, go to VCoins or M A shops, and browse coins under $200.