Savoca Silver: Nero and Agrippina - who won?

[Prieure de Sion]

Seleucis and Pieria. Antioch. Nero with Agrippina Junior circa AD 54-68. Dated RY 3 and year 105 of the Caesarean Era
Tetradrachm AR, 26 mm, 14,50 g, ΝΕΡΩΝΟΣ ΚΛΑΥΔΙΟΥ ΘΕΟΥ ΥΙ ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒ, head of Nero to right, wearing oak wreath / ΑΓΡΙΠΠΕΙΝΗΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΤΗΣ, draped bust of Agrippina to right; Γ ΕΡ (date) in two lines to lower right. Nearly Extremely Fine, RPC I 4175; McAlee 253; Prieur 74. Rare, and very well preserved for the type.

 

Not my coin! I have not won.

Is it okay to congratulate someone from here? Who bid? Well, I was in - but I got out in the end. Beautiful specimen - two really great portraits. 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

It is an attractive example. What's going on with Agrippina's ghost chin?

[CPK]

I had a few bids out, but none on this coin. It's a very nice example.

[Salomons Cat]

I wanted this one as well. It was actually the only coin that I had on my watchlist from this auction. But the price went too high for me.

[Qcumbor]

Same here. I didn't even throw a bid in, assuming I would be too short. 

And was outbid on the two others I had bids on.

Q

[maridvnvm]

17 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

It is an attractive example. What's going on with Agrippina's ghost chin?

A double strike with ghosting of the bust from the first strike. Evident in the legends too.

[Molag Bal]

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/savoca_gmbh__co_kg/234/product/seleucis_and_pieria_antioch_nero_with_agrippina_junior_circa_ad_5468_dated_ry_3_and_year_105_of_the_caesarean_era_tetradrachm_ar/1953702/Default.aspx

 

Savoca won it! 

[El Cazador]

6 minutes ago, Molag Bal said:

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/savoca_gmbh__co_kg/234/product/seleucis_and_pieria_antioch_nero_with_agrippina_junior_circa_ad_5468_dated_ry_3_and_year_105_of_the_caesarean_era_tetradrachm_ar/1953702/Default.aspx

 

Savoca won it! 

Insane, no? Isn’t this a pure indication of inappropriate bidding behavior? Totally losing trust with them

[CPK]

It must have had a reserve. Although, 3,000 EUR sounds just a bit high to me.

[ambr0zie]

@CPK, for a moment I thought this (magnificent) example was won by a certain collector who haunts another board. 

I impatiently expected for a topic to appear with "ID Help" followed by "Es it rare?"

-----

Seriously. Seeing who won the coin does not impress me. Not in a positive way. 

I bought a lot of decent coins from Savoca (not at this level, but still). I kind of noticed that the prices are increasing in their auctions, but I thought this is because they are becoming more and more popular (because, to be fair, they are serious). I know that it's considered ethical for houses to bid for own stock (and I DISAGREE but who would care). But this behavior means red flag for me and I tend to avoid houses who do this. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by ambr0zie

[CPK]

31 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

@CPK, for a moment I thought this (magnificent) example was won by a certain collector who haunts another board. 

I impatiently expected for a topic to appear with "ID Help" followed by "Es it rare?"

-----

Seriously. Seeing who won the coin does not impress me. Not in a positive way. 

I bought a lot of decent coins from Savoca (not at this level, but still). I kind of noticed that the prices are increasing in their auctions, but I thought this is because they are becoming more and more popular (because, to be fair, they are serious). I know that it's considered ethical for houses to bid for own stock (and I DISAGREE but who would care). But this behavior means red flag for me and I tend to avoid houses who do this. 

Haha!

I'm not opposed to the idea of an auction house (or consigner) placing a reserve on a lot, but I do think in that case, if the bids are too low, it should be indicated that the reserve has not yet been met.

[shanxi]

In another forum, a user asked Savoca about this coin and some others, and they replied (translated)

 

"Good day

Thank you very much for your message.
Unfortunately, a customer cancelled his invoice from the 171st Silver Auction and we have subsequently posted the coins on
VCoins."

 

[El Cazador]

1 hour ago, shanxi said:

In another forum, a user asked Savoca about this coin and some others, and they replied (translated)

 

"Good day

Thank you very much for your message.
Unfortunately, a customer cancelled his invoice from the 171st Silver Auction and we have subsequently posted the coins on
VCoins."

 

🤣🤣🤣, Classic 

[Limes]

2 hours ago, shanxi said:

In another forum, a user asked Savoca about this coin and some others, and they replied (translated)

 

"Good day

Thank you very much for your message.
Unfortunately, a customer cancelled his invoice from the 171st Silver Auction and we have subsequently posted the coins on
VCoins."

 

Whether that is the case or not (and I myself have no reason to distrust their answer), it's not uncommon, is it? There are also other dealers that purchase a coin and put it for sale on e.g. MA shops for much more, buy coins for their own stock, and so on. So why cant the auctioneer decide that the offering in an auction does not meet a certain reserve, either placed by themselves, or the conseignor. Only thing one could argue about perhaps, is the lack of transparency, and that can be irritating I imagine. 

I have purchased coins from retail sellers, for a much higher price than what they paid for it in an auction. I dont have the time to go through all the auctions and offerings, or at that moment have another target. So Im glad that I can purchase that coin from my favorite seller. Downside is I pay more then I would have, if I had bought it at an auction, but like I said, sometimes there's another target and I have to chose. 

Some call this doing business, but others dont like this practice. There was a big discussion about it on CT, in the past. (If anyone is interested, I'll try to find it and post a link to it.) There are positives and negatives about it, and everyone can think differently. Only thing that matters to me, is that I can live with the price I'm willing to pay. If it does not meet a reserve of some sort, so be it.  

[Salomons Cat]

50 minutes ago, Limes said:

Whether that is the case or not (and I myself have no reason to distrust their answer), it's not uncommon, is it? There are also other dealers that purchase a coin and put it for sale on e.g. MA shops for much more, buy coins for their own stock, and so on. So why cant the auctioneer decide that the offering in an auction does not meet a certain reserve, either placed by themselves, or the conseignor. Only thing one could argue about perhaps, is the lack of transparency, and that can be irritating I imagine. 

I have purchased coins from retail sellers, for a much higher price than what they paid for it in an auction. I dont have the time to go through all the auctions and offerings, or at that moment have another target. So Im glad that I can purchase that coin from my favorite seller. Downside is I pay more then I would have, if I had bought it at an auction, but like I said, sometimes there's another target and I have to chose. 

Some call this doing business, but others dont like this practice. There was a big discussion about it on CT, in the past. (If anyone is interested, I'll try to find it and post a link to it.) There are positives and negatives about it, and everyone can think differently. Only thing that matters to me, is that I can live with the price I'm willing to pay. If it does not meet a reserve of some sort, so be it.  

Often, the bidders can give pre-bids that are not visible to the public. These bids are automatically carried out during the auction and this is part of the agreement between them and the auction house. That means that the auction house has some insider knowledge. In this scenario, it could be ethically problematic if the auction house places bids and buys coins for themselves. Although I don’t remember reading in any terms and conditions that this would be forbidden 🤔 It would for sure be very tempting for an auction house to do that.

In other scenarios, such a behavior would at least open a door for manipulations. 
Just imagine that the consigner of one of the coins opens a fake account (this is very, very easy) and bids on his own coin, hoping that someone else will bid even higher. But this doesn't happen. So he doesn't pay for the coin - but the auction house responds: "No problem! We buy the coin for the price and sell it in our vcoins shop."

Well, we have a free-market economy and auction houses can adjust their terms and conditions as they like. To allow such things would favor the sellers and protect them from disappointments.

I must admit that I don‘t know what to think about this. Maybe it's ok and just a part of the free market.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Salomons Cat