Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Posted June 29 · Member Share Posted June 29 Is anyone surprised by this news ? https://new.coinsweekly.com/news/coin-dealer-italo-vecchi-charged-with-grand-larceny/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted June 29 · Supporter Share Posted June 29 Handcuffed. How ridiculous, and cruel. The guy is 75 and walks with a cane. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand Posted June 29 · Member Share Posted June 29 Nothing that humans do, surprises me. Here's the original story : https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12224073/Dealer-worlds-expensive-coin-sold-4-1M-charged-grand-larceny-NYC.html According to the original story, Mr. Vecchi has been charged with "grand larceny in the first degree, two counts of conspiracy in the fourth degree and second degree criminal possession of stolen property, among other charges". The original story contains almost no useful information. For example, from whom were the coins stolen? One would think, that would be an important piece of information. It will be interesting to see, what sort of evidence, if any, will be presented, at the trial. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand Posted June 29 · Member Share Posted June 29 P.S. : In the original story, I find the following statement quite amusing. "Vecchi has allegedly been selling illegal coins for decades, according to court documents." As if coins, by their very nature, could be illegal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted June 29 · Supporter Share Posted June 29 (edited) Just thought I’d point out that the various MOUs that we object to were signed, extended, and renewed under both parties' various administrations. https://eca.state.gov/cultural-heritage-center/cultural-property/current-agreements-and-import-restrictions (Posted in hope that we can avoid a distracting political argument….) (Edit: Looks like it did work, the post that was going places we should maybe avoid is now gone.) Edited June 30 by Severus Alexander 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETHER Posted June 29 · Member Share Posted June 29 At first glance, I feel bad for him in a way, at second glance, this is not his first forgery of documentation. Which to me is a cardinal sin in the hobby. But, does the punishment fit the crime? Probably not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted June 29 · Supporter Share Posted June 29 As before, we need to clearly distinguish forging provenance documents from theft. If the alleged “theft” is of a “country’s coin” that is “rightfully” theirs because of dubious cultural heritage principles, then we’re right to be skeptical. Defrauding buyers by forging a provenance is clearly wrong, however. (Perhaps mitigated somewhat to the extent that this was done to avoid problems due to the problematic cultural heritage MOUs.) 3 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 29 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 29 59 minutes ago, sand said: Nothing that humans do, surprises me. Here's the original story : https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12224073/Dealer-worlds-expensive-coin-sold-4-1M-charged-grand-larceny-NYC.html According to the original story, Mr. Vecchi has been charged with "grand larceny in the first degree, two counts of conspiracy in the fourth degree and second degree criminal possession of stolen property, among other charges". The original story contains almost no useful information. For example, from whom were the coins stolen? One would think, that would be an important piece of information. It will be interesting to see, what sort of evidence, if any, will be presented, at the trial. I am sure they mean stolen in the sense of illegally exported from the country where they were found, thereby depriving that country of its legal ownership rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 29 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 29 1 hour ago, Severus Alexander said: Handcuffed. How ridiculous, and cruel. The guy is 75 and walks with a cane. No different from how accused felons, elderly or otherwise, are usually treated after arrest. Unless they used to be POTUS. I wonder if he showed up from the UK voluntarily. I expected this, and wonder why it took so long. Perhaps they were trying to persuade him to flip on Beale. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted June 29 · Supporter Share Posted June 29 (edited) The whole thing is just too bad. I don't have much confidence in or respect for the DA, but still, I at least hope that justice will be dispensed fairly, impartially, and with due consideration. Ideally, without a big media frenzy about it too. Edited June 29 by CPK 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTrachyEnjoyer Posted June 29 · Member Share Posted June 29 1 hour ago, sand said: P.S. : In the original story, I find the following statement quite amusing. "Vecchi has allegedly been selling illegal coins for decades, according to court documents." As if coins, by their very nature, could be illegal. I mean they can be. As this case demonstrates 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 29 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 29 (edited) 27 minutes ago, TheTrachyEnjoyer said: I mean they can be. As this case demonstrates It's just a shorthand way of saying that they were illegally acquired, imported, and sold. One could refer to "illegal" goods of any kind in exactly the same way. Nothing unusual to see here. Edited June 29 by DonnaML 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeady Posted June 29 · Supporter Share Posted June 29 2 hours ago, sand said: Nothing that humans do, surprises me. Here's the original story : https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12224073/Dealer-worlds-expensive-coin-sold-4-1M-charged-grand-larceny-NYC.html According to the original story, Mr. Vecchi has been charged with "grand larceny in the first degree, two counts of conspiracy in the fourth degree and second degree criminal possession of stolen property, among other charges". The original story contains almost no useful information. For example, from whom were the coins stolen? One would think, that would be an important piece of information. It will be interesting to see, what sort of evidence, if any, will be presented, at the trial. Funny - the Naxos coin shown in the article looked well off and indeed was sold as a modern fake: Naxos coin in Daily Mail article Vecchi is no longer shown on Roma's website and his photo' wasn't in their latest mini-catalogue that came in the post a while back. ATB, Aidan. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesiod Posted June 30 · Member Share Posted June 30 17 minutes ago, akeady said: Funny - the Naxos coin shown in the article looked well off and indeed was sold as a modern fake: That's because daily mail sucks, the naxos tet that the DA complained about wasn't that one. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeady Posted June 30 · Supporter Share Posted June 30 6 minutes ago, Hesiod said: That's because daily mail sucks, the naxos tet that the DA complained about wasn't that one. Yes - I know - the one they should have shown is this: The real Naxos tet 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Posted June 30 · Member Author Share Posted June 30 1 hour ago, CPK said: I don't have much confidence in or respect for the DA There is a lot of political BS behind this case, and I’ll write a thread about it soon. There are many questions not answered about the return of the coins in their « country of origin ». Maybe we’ll never have the answers, though these questions need to be asked publicly. To be continued…. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 30 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 30 9 minutes ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said: There are many questions not answered about the return of the coins in their « country of origin ». Please keep in mind that it's the country where an artifact was found that has the right to possession, not the "country of origin" in the sense of the place where it was manufactured. If either of these cases ever proceeds to trial (or even a plea bargain), any evidence the prosecutors have on where the coins were found will presumably become public. Unless and until that happens, it's all speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Posted June 30 · Member Author Share Posted June 30 1 hour ago, DonnaML said: it's the country where an artifact was found that has the right to possession, You’re absolutely right. I meant the « origin » of the discovery, not of the minting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted June 30 · Member Share Posted June 30 Anyone feel like ponying up the $90 or so it costs to request the court documents? Perhaps there's a similar affidavit to the one written by Brent Easter for Beale. Though I'm not sure if that was how those documents were originally acquired or if they came from somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 30 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 30 1 hour ago, Kaleun96 said: Anyone feel like ponying up the $90 or so it costs to request the court documents? Perhaps there's a similar affidavit to the one written by Brent Easter for Beale. Though I'm not sure if that was how those documents were originally acquired or if they came from somewhere else. It should be free if it's part of the public docket. I will check later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 30 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 30 (edited) All my personal experience was with civil cases, and it appears that filed documents in criminal cases are not as readily available. How the press got hold of the charging affidavit in Beale's case, I'm not sure, although I suppose the DA's office probably provided it. I imagine that any such affidavit in Vecchi's case will become public soon enough. Right now, all I see on the public docket is the list of charges and the basic case information: Edited June 30 by DonnaML 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted June 30 · Member Share Posted June 30 26 minutes ago, DonnaML said: All my personal experience was with civil cases, and it appears that filed documents in criminal cases are not as readily available. How the press got hold of the charging affidavit in Beale's case, I'm not sure, although I suppose the DA's office probably provided it. I imagine that any such affidavit in Vecchi's case will become public soon enough. Right now, all I see on the public docket is the list of charges and the basic case information: Maybe it needs to be requested from the court itself, or a FOIL request to the DA or police department?https://ww2.nycourts.gov/foil/CourtRecords.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted June 30 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 30 5 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said: Maybe it needs to be requested from the court itself, or a FOIL request to the DA or police department?https://ww2.nycourts.gov/foil/CourtRecords.shtml FOIL requests can take months before there's a response. As I said, I'm sure it will all become public before too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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