US man returns antiquities to Italy after reading Guardian report on looted relics

[robinjojo]

From today's edition of the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2023/may/08/us-man-returns-antiquities-italy-after-reading-guardian-report-on-looted-relics

 

[JeandAcre]

Thanks for this, @robinjojo.  ...Eventually, I'm going to have to retab The Guardian (and, Gasp, start donating?), but until then, thanks for keeping the rest of us in their loop.

[Ryro]

He "repatriated" rubble. Even in the article it's described as "not exceptional objects" and that it was the principle. Smh

These items will sit in a box in a basement somewhere cause this guy read one article. 

But hey, someone wrote an article about him and now he gets to be in the spotlight. 

[robinjojo]

Personally I have relied on the Guardian as a primary news source for many years, that and PBS.

[John Conduitt]

"I’m sure [my father] didn’t realise that they were as old as they are". 🤣 If his parents 'inspired his passion for history and archaeology' he surely wouldn't make statements like that.

There's a bizarre assumption that they must have been looted because they're old. The Italian authorities at the time just let people sell this stuff to tourists because they knew it wasn't valuable or worth keeping. Suddenly, those same authorities are taking the view that this guy's parents technically stole them. It's strange how moral indignation appears out of nowhere.

[robinjojo]

I remember visiting the flea market in Rome in 1969 with my parents.  Vases, pieces of ceramic and coins, which were mostly fakes, in retrospect, were sold by individuals who spread them across the ground on that hot sunny day.  My dad kept asking the seller if two small vases were original.  I was embarrassed probably because I was 16 at the time, but also because of the naivety of the question.  Of course they were original the seller would reply!  So we ended up buying two vases and some fake coins that were supposed to be early Roman Republic bronzes, late 3rd - early 2nd century BC as I recall.  As I remember the vases (my brother took them after our mother's death in 2012), they were nicely done replicas and really thin in thickness as well as quite light.  I don't remember what happened to the coins.

Edited May 8, 2023 by robinjojo

[David Atherton]

Museums are like people - some are good, some are bad, and some are just OK. The strawman argument that all museums are antiquity blackholes is very misleading. 

We as collectors should be thankful for these institutions ... without them we wouldn't have many of our references!

[DonnaML]

This is embarrassing. It all looks basically like trash. That broken net lekythos would cost very little -- I wouldn't pay more than $25.00 for it. They're not expensive to begin with in intact condition, given how small they are.

A miniature Apulian net lekythos, with a second photo giving an idea of its size, purchased at Royal Athena, NYC.

An Apulian (South Italian) net lekythos, purchased from Harmer Rooke, NYC, 02.06.1982. 2 3/4" high.

[CPK]

Absolutely pathetic. The whole thing is nothing but a ridiculous attempt at moral grandstanding. I have no respect for this man or any others like him.

[Octavius]

 I think the postage to send these things to Italy costs more than they're worth.

I've seen many better pieces as well as fakes offered in open markets of Rome , as in Porta Portese.

Personally , I'm still waiting for Italy to "repatriate" all the Obelisks in the piazzas back to Egypt.

[Furryfrog02]

I'm no antiquities expert...but what I see there doesn't seem to be of any cultural or historical significance. I doubt these pieces will ever be studied or displayed in a museum and will likely just end up in a box in the basement somewhere. 

[Hrefn]

The Italy to which these objects were returned is not the one in which they were produced.  The culture which receives them is not the culture which produced them.  I would wager 99.9% of Italian nationals do not know what a lekythos is, or what purpose it served.

 Also, the word lekythos is Greek.  When will the Apulians be reprimanded for their cultural appropriation of this important aspect of Greek culture?   As products of Greater Greece, perhaps they should be returned to Athens.  Italy has stolen the cultural patrimony of Greece for millenia;  isn’t it time for us to acknowledge this injustice and put a stop to it?  

Was slave labor employed in their production?  We must determine who the descendants of these slaves are, and ensure they are compensated.  Perhaps a percentage of the entrance fee to the museum which receives these objects?  

 

[NathanB]

On 5/8/2023 at 4:08 PM, CPK said:

Absolutely pathetic. The whole thing is nothing but a ridiculous attempt at moral grandstanding. I have no respect for this man or any others like him.

That seems very uncharitable.  The individual made what he thought was an ethical decision. That should be respected even if one disagrees with the reasoning behind it. 

[CPK]

6 hours ago, NathanB said:

That seems very uncharitable.  The individual made what he thought was an ethical decision. That should be respected even if one disagrees with the reasoning behind it. 

I respect his right to make his own decisions, if that's what you mean. But I'm not under any obligation to respect what he does with that right, or his reasons for doing it. Many (all?) of the most horrific atrocities in history were committed by people who thought that they had pretty good ethical reasons for doing it.

In this case, the man's decision was driven by ignorance fueled by a desire to virtue-signal. In my opinion, absolutely pathetic, as I said.

[NathanB]

15 hours ago, CPK said:

I respect his right to make his own decisions, if that's what you mean. But I'm not under any obligation to respect what he does with that right, or his reasons for doing it. Many (all?) of the most horrific atrocities in history were committed by people who thought that they had pretty good ethical reasons for doing it.

In this case, the man's decision was driven by ignorance fueled by a desire to virtue-signal. In my opinion, absolutely pathetic, as I said.

You make a good point about much evil being done by people who thought they had good ethical reasons for doing it.*  But at the same time, much good has been done by people who thought they had good ethical reasons for doing so.  In this particular case, I don't think bringing up people who have committed atrocities is even remotely an appropriate analogy.  The guy returned some nearly worthless antiquities to Italy; its not like he set the stage for genocide or something.

I also disagree with your comment about virtue-signaling, for two reasons.  First, it is entirely possible that the media was alerted to this by staff at an Italian embassy or consulate, or by a university department somewhere, rather than by this guy himself.  In that case, perhaps he was simply persuaded that he was doing even more of the right thing.  Second, your point about virtue signaling applies to yourself, too: you literally posted your opinion on a social media page that has like buttons on it.  

Frankly, the whole concept of "virtue-signaling" seems to be to be of nearly no usefulness.  First, the usage is almost entirely on the right side of the political spectrum.  To those outside that point of view, the term sounds kind of like the language of a cult.  Second, it always shows both a judgmentalness and a corresponding assumption that one is making about the motivations of another.  

I'm not comfortable making those assumptions about people I don't know at all when there are other explanations that don't impugn their character.  

As for what this fellow did, honestly, I don't feel threatened by it.  They were his antiquities to do with what he thought best.  He made what he thought was the right call, even if I don't think that call was necessary.  It's honestly not that big a deal.  No need to get one's knickers in a knot. 🙂 

--

*Having said that, a lot of people are willing to fool themselves into thinking they are doing the right think when really all they want is power or vengeance.  In other words, most atrocities are committed for reasons involving power or hate, and those reasons are then used to drive an attempt at an ethical justification.  And a lot more people are willing to believe the propaganda the first type puts out.  

Edited June 19, 2023 by NathanB

[CPK]

6 hours ago, NathanB said:

You make a good point about much evil being done by people who thought they had good ethical reasons for doing it.*  But at the same time, much good has been done by people who thought they had good ethical reasons for doing so.  In this particular case, I don't think bringing up people who have committed atrocities is even remotely an appropriate analogy.  The guy returned some nearly worthless antiquities to Italy; its not like he set the stage for genocide or something.

I also disagree with your comment about virtue-signaling, for two reasons.  First, it is entirely possible that the media was alerted to this by staff at an Italian embassy or consulate, or by a university department somewhere, rather than by this guy himself.  In that case, perhaps he was simply persuaded that he was doing even more of the right thing.  Second, your point about virtue signaling applies to yourself, too: you literally posted your opinion on a social media page that has like buttons on it.  

Frankly, the whole concept of "virtue-signaling" seems to be to be of nearly no usefulness.  First, the usage is almost entirely on the right side of the political spectrum.  To those outside that point of view, the term sounds kind of like the language of a cult.  Second, it always shows both a judgmentalness and a corresponding assumption that one is making about the motivations of another.  

I'm not comfortable making those assumptions about people I don't know at all when there are other explanations that don't impugn their character.  

As for what this fellow did, honestly, I don't feel threatened by it.  They were his antiquities to do with what he thought best.  He made what he thought was the right call, even if I don't think that call was necessary.  It's honestly not that big a deal.  No need to get one's knickers in a knot. 🙂 

--

*Having said that, a lot of people are willing to fool themselves into thinking they are doing the right think when really all they want is power or vengeance.  In other words, most atrocities are committed for reasons involving power or hate, and those reasons are then used to drive an attempt at an ethical justification.  And a lot more people are willing to believe the propaganda the first type puts out.  

I don't want to get too far into the weeds here, but I'll just say that first of all, obviously, I'm not comparing repatriating worthless antiquities to genocide; I'm simply applying your logic about respecting people's decisions to an extreme in order to make a point.

Second, I concede that no, I do not know this man's innermost motives, and perhaps he truly was driven only by ignorance and not a desire for attention. But so much of what we've seen with this sort of recent behavior - and I don't think I need to recount every "repatriation" story here - has been what you might call virtue signaling, or moral grandstanding if you prefer - I think we all know what is meant and I really don't care what you call it.

Third, even if his motives were pure, his ignorance about the matters - not just in supposing his antiquities were of any worth, but more importantly, his apparent belief that any antiquities outside the country of origin were probably illegally obtained and ought to be returned - that is ignorance, and it is bad, and that kind of thinking, if it becomes mainstream enough, will most certainly have a negative effect on honest collector's ability to pursue their interests. I don't feel threatened, as you put it, but it is a concern, surely?

[NathanB]

11 hours ago, CPK said:

I don't want to get too far into the weeds here, but I'll just say that first of all, obviously, I'm not comparing repatriating worthless antiquities to genocide; I'm simply applying your logic about respecting people's decisions to an extreme in order to make a point.

Second, I concede that no, I do not know this man's innermost motives, and perhaps he truly was driven only by ignorance and not a desire for attention. But so much of what we've seen with this sort of recent behavior - and I don't think I need to recount every "repatriation" story here - has been what you might call virtue signaling, or moral grandstanding if you prefer - I think we all know what is meant and I really don't care what you call it.

Third, even if his motives were pure, his ignorance about the matters - not just in supposing his antiquities were of any worth, but more importantly, his apparent belief that any antiquities outside the country of origin were probably illegally obtained and ought to be returned - that is ignorance, and it is bad, and that kind of thinking, if it becomes mainstream enough, will most certainly have a negative effect on honest collector's ability to pursue their interests. I don't feel threatened, as you put it, but it is a concern, surely?

I read your first sentence and smiled. 🙂 Yes, I know that you were not comparing repatriating worthless antiquities to genocide.  You were essentially trying to prove if my "we should respect people who try to make ethical decisions even if those ethical decisions don't produce results we like" could really hold water.  And indeed, if we push it to include extreme cases, it does not.  But my point wasn't that we must always and in each case respect all decisions made with reference to ethics, from returning worthless things to plotting genocide, but rather, that in ordinary situations--the kind we all face from day to day--it is in general a good thing if we respect it when someone else tries to do the right thing. 

Regarding the virtue signaling/moral grandstanding, it honestly doesn't bother me.  Preachers in church, imams in mosques, politicians at rallies, opinionated managers, random internet personalities--at some point many of us are trying to persuade others that a particular way is better than another way.  Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.  And sometimes such persuasion is done for the right reasons, sometimes for the wrong, and other times for a mix of motives.  But regardless, I just don't get offended by whatever it is that we might call moral grandstanding or virtue signaling.  It's not something I concern myself with.

Regarding the other repatriation stories you mentioned, without having seen them, I can't really comment.  But in general, when a small person makes a small gesture, they don't really seek out fame and glory.  It is more likely that they will be used as pawns by more powerful institutions, such governments like Italy.  In other words, in those cases, too, I think it's more likely that the media have been contacted by academic or diplomatic staff rather than by little people returning things.

About your final paragraph, I'm not sure that this individual did suppose that his antiquities were of much worth as the article doesn't address this point.  Similarly, I don't see this guy claiming that any antiquities outside a country of origin were illegally obtained.  He was afraid that his antiquities were improperly removed from Italy.  He thought that they had been sold at an outdoor market in Naples, and since he grew up in Italy and accompanied his father around there, it seems that he thought his dad bought them in good faith, and transported them out of the country in good faith. 

One thing that did surprise me was that he said he thought his dad had no idea of the age of the artefacts; similarly, he thought his dad would support him returning them.  I find it unlikely that his father did not have at least a rough idea of the age of the items he purchased.  And since they were purchased in a very different era, I don't have any way of knowing if his father (if he were alive) would want him to return them or not.  It seems kind of counterintuitive, though.

Where I think you and I both share concern is with these various agreements made by the State Department with governments like Italy and Turkey, who claim that antiquities manufactured in their historic lands should be returned to them, regardless of where they were found.  For instance, a Greek coin minted in Asia Minor that circulated around the Mediterranean and ended up in, say, Tunisia--that coin to me would fall under the purview of the laws in Tunisia and not the laws of Turkey.  Similarly, a Roman coin minted in Italy that ended up in Great Britain should be governed by British laws on exporting and so on rather than by Italy's.  In my opinion, for countries like Italy and Greece and Turkey to claim these coins that were found outside their borders is not only completely absurd (for a variety of reasons), it's also unfair to the countries in which the artefacts ended up prior to being found. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by NathanB