Roma in court today?

[Tetradogma]

Sadly behind  a paywall, if anyone has a Times subscription would be great if you could copy the article in the comments below.

Looks like Mr B is in the dock today though

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-sandhurst-graduate-one-of-the-worlds-rarest-coins-and-a-3m-fraud-2sj76kw22

[zadie]

For everyone's convenience:

[Tetradogma]

Amazing, thank you

[Kaleun96]

Next appearance June 26th. Wonder if we'll hear much about what happened during the hearing yesterday.

[DonnaML]

3 hours ago, Kaleun96 said:

Next appearance June 26th. Wonder if we'll hear much about what happened during the hearing yesterday.

It seems from the docket entry that nothing happened: the case was adjourned, and Beale's status as released on his own recognizance continues 

[Kaleun96]

18 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

It seems from the docket entry that nothing happened: the case was adjourned, and Beale's status as released on his own recognizance continues 

As it has that for the past hearings as well, does that mean there was likely nothing of substance submitted to the court in any of those? Or is it more that at this stage if anything happened like a plea deal, motion of some kind, or trial date was set we'd know about it?

Not sure how these things normally go but was the affidavit from Brent Easter something that was likely submitted during the first hearing/arraignment? If so, would we expect other documents to have been submitted yesterday even if it shows that the case was ultimately adjourned?

[DonnaML]

32 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

As it has that for the past hearings as well, does that mean there was likely nothing of substance submitted to the court in any of those? Or is it more that at this stage if anything happened like a plea deal, motion of some kind, or trial date was set we'd know about it?

Not sure how these things normally go but was the affidavit from Brent Easter something that was likely submitted during the first hearing/arraignment? If so, would we expect other documents to have been submitted yesterday even if it shows that the case was ultimately adjourned?

I think there would be an indication in the docket if any documents had been filed or anything else of a substantive nature had happened 

[Tetradogma]

4 hours ago, Kaleun96 said:

As it has that for the past hearings as well, does that mean there was likely nothing of substance submitted to the court in any of those? Or is it more that at this stage if anything happened like a plea deal, motion of some kind, or trial date was set we'd know about it?

Not sure how these things normally go but was the affidavit from Brent Easter something that was likely submitted during the first hearing/arraignment? If so, would we expect other documents to have been submitted yesterday even if it shows that the case was ultimately adjourned?

Sorry, who's Brent Easter??

[zadie]

15 minutes ago, Tetradogma said:

Sorry, who's Brent Easter??

He's the HSI agent in charge of the case: https://www.ice.gov/features/hsi-special-agent-featured-espn-documentary

[GregH]

For the benefit of my understanding what are the issues here?

That the coin is stolen property? That the provenance provided for the coin was false? All of the above?

What does it mean to "pay for provenance"? To pay money to somebody else to track the provenance? To pay money to falsify the provenance?

Edited May 10, 2023 by GregH

[sand]

8 hours ago, GregH said:

For the benefit of my understanding what are the issues here?

That the coin is stolen property? That the provenance provided for the coin was false? All of the above?

What does it mean to "pay for provenance"? To pay money to somebody else to track the provenance? To pay money to falsify the provenance?

Hello @GregH. You have asked some good questions.

There is a long thread about this topic, on Nvmis Forvms, called "Interesting thread on reddit about Roma Numismatics and the apparent arrest of Richard Beale". If you look at the 9th post in that thread, a post by filolif, you will find, what seems to be, if I'm not mistaken, the official affidavit, which seems to have a large amount of official information.

There is also a long thread about this topic, on CoinTalk, called "Roma Numismatics, Richard Beale Arrested.".

[kirispupis]

FWIW, this court case seems to have only benefitted Roma's sales.

I was absolutely murdalized at today's auction. I did pick up two coins on my list, but I was completely destroyed on everything else. I've noticed a trend of an uptick of bidders there.

• Two auctions ago, I obtained my top targets but had to pay through the nose to win them.
• The last auction, I lost my top targets despite competitive bids, but I did win one lower target.
• At this auction, I placed bids that I felt were much higher than the coins were worth, but I still lost (and in one case my bid was doubled). I also lost on a lower target very similar to the last one (and with an identical bid).

I used to win pretty nice coins for fair prices at Roma, but those days seem to be over. Nowadays I've been able to snag better deals at Leu, Nomos, and CNG - which earlier had seemed high compared to Roma. 

[El Cazador]

5 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

FWIW, this court case seems to have only benefitted Roma's sales.

I was absolutely murdalized at today's auction. I did pick up two coins on my list, but I was completely destroyed on everything else. I've noticed a trend of an uptick of bidders there.

• Two auctions ago, I obtained my top targets but had to pay through the nose to win them.
• The last auction, I lost my top targets despite competitive bids, but I did win one lower target.
• At this auction, I placed bids that I felt were much higher than the coins were worth, but I still lost (and in one case my bid was doubled). I also lost on a lower target very similar to the last one (and with an identical bid).

I used to win pretty nice coins for fair prices at Roma, but those days seem to be over. Nowadays I've been able to snag better deals at Leu, Nomos, and CNG - which earlier had seemed high compared to Roma. 

As expected- i placed bids so everyone else did, business as usual- no surprises here

[robinjojo]

Pretty tough going at Roma today.  Great for the consignors I'd imagine.  I had my eye on an imitative owl with an estimate of £500.  Bidding ended at £1,100 plus the buyer's fee of 22.5%..  I think that's far too much for such as coin, but obviously others don't share this view.  Perhaps the auction gods are sending a message?

I agree that better deals are available elsewhere, including dealers lists and even eBay, with the caveat that the latter is a minefield rife with fakes.

[Steppenfool]

There was a disgusting Titus Elephant denarius that I had my eye on, but it went way too high.

Also A Severus LEGIO XIII denarius in rough shape I was the underbidder on.

I also thought about bidding on the MATRI Faustina II but it was already too high at £55 for the shape of the reverse about 6 hours before the auction ended.

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, robinjojo said:

Pretty tough going at Roma today.  Great for the consignors I'd imagine.  I had my eye on an imitative owl with an estimate of £500.  Bidding ended at £1,100 plus the buyer's fee of 22.5%..  I think that's far too much for such as coin, but obviously others don't share this view.  Perhaps the auction gods are sending a message?

I agree that better deals are available elsewhere, including dealers lists and even eBay, with the caveat that the latter is a minefield rife with fakes.

Was this the Sabakes tet? That one IMHO went a bit low. When I saw how low it went, I decided to try my luck for the Caligula sisters sestertius, but I was outbid (although IMHO that hammer was not outrageous at all).

The one I wanted most was the Kaphyai AE. From ACSearch, the most this bronze went for was 350 pounds (after fees). I bid up to 600 pounds (before fees) but it went up to 1300.

On the other hand, I ended up glad that I missed on the Karthaia coin. I bowed out way early due to the coin's condition and wound up buying a far superior copy of the same issue from a VCoins seller for only a bit more than the hammer of Roma's.

[robinjojo]

7 hours ago, kirispupis said:

Was this the Sabakes tet? That one IMHO went a bit low. When I saw how low it went, I decided to try my luck for the Caligula sisters sestertius, but I was outbid (although IMHO that hammer was not outrageous at all).

The one I wanted most was the Kaphyai AE. From ACSearch, the most this bronze went for was 350 pounds (after fees). I bid up to 600 pounds (before fees) but it went up to 1300.

On the other hand, I ended up glad that I missed on the Karthaia coin. I bowed out way early due to the coin's condition and wound up buying a far superior copy of the same issue from a VCoins seller for only a bit more than the hammer of Roma's.

No, I was referring to lot 199:

https://www.romanumismatics.com/274-lot-199-attica-athens-ar-tetradrachm?arr=0&auction_id=175&box_filter=0&cat_id=2&department_id=&exclude_keyword=&export_issue=0&gridtype=listview&high_estimate=4000&image_filter=0&keyword=&list_type=list_view&lots_per_page=100&low_estimate=5&month=&page_no=2&paper_filter=0&search_type=&sort_by=lot_number&view=lot_detail&year=

I think the Sabakes owl hammered at a reasonable price, also £1,100, With the buyer's fee and currency conversion the total for that coin is around $1,700.  It does have almost all of the Aramaic legend on the reverse, unlike my example, which is missing almost all of it, but the surfaces are a little rough, which doesn't particularly bother me.  I guess one could argue that it could have gone a bit higher, but not a whole lot.  The punch marks are kind of cool.

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by robinjojo

[Tetradogma]

Looking over comments in another FB ancients group and it seems people are very unbothered by the implications of this case, at least in terms of whether to bid or not in the auction from 2 days ago. Difficult to gauge but seems prices were robust but not crazy, like previous e-sales, this wasn't one of Romas' top tier auctions though, just their monthly one, a few high end coins but mostly mid and lower range. Wonder whether if and how the case develops will affect whether people bid, at this stage, it appears not.

[kirispupis]

18 hours ago, robinjojo said:

No, I was referring to lot 199:

https://www.romanumismatics.com/274-lot-199-attica-athens-ar-tetradrachm?arr=0&auction_id=175&box_filter=0&cat_id=2&department_id=&exclude_keyword=&export_issue=0&gridtype=listview&high_estimate=4000&image_filter=0&keyword=&list_type=list_view&lots_per_page=100&low_estimate=5&month=&page_no=2&paper_filter=0&search_type=&sort_by=lot_number&view=lot_detail&year=

I think the Sabakes owl hammered at a reasonable price, also £1,100, With the buyer's fee and currency conversion the total for that coin is around $1,700.  It does have almost all of the Aramaic legend on the reverse, unlike my example, which is missing almost all of it, but the surfaces are a little rough, which doesn't particularly bother me.  I guess one could argue that it could have gone a bit higher, but not a whole lot.  The punch marks are kind of cool.

 

That's an interesting owl, but I agree with you that it went too high. Maybe if it had full crest it would be worth that. Perhaps the bidders had a good idea based on the style where it was from, and it was somewhere rare? For example, personally I would love to own a tet from Cyrus the Younger. He almost certainly used Athenian tets, since he employed Greek mercenaries. However, to date I haven't read anything solid that could be used to differentiate them.

Posting my own Sabakes owl (again) because it's one of my favorite coins. 🙂 It has a number of similarities to the one Roma just sold. They could be from the same hoard.

Egypt, Achaemenid Province. Sabakes, satrap, AR Tetradrachm. Circa 340-333 BCE
16.61g, 25mm, 9h.
Head of Athena to right, wearing earring, necklace, and crested Attic helmet decorated with three olive leaves over visor and a spiral palmette on the bowl / Owl standing to right with head facing, olive sprig with berry and crescent in upper left field; uncertain letters to left, ""Sabakes symbol"" and SWYK (in Aramaic) to right.
Van Alfen Type III, 24-34 var. (O11/R- [unlisted rev. die]); Nicolet-Pierre, Monnaies 18-26 (same obv. die); SNG Copenhagen 4 var. (no letters on left of rev.); BMC 265 var. (same).
Ex collection of Baron Dominique de Chambrier

 

[Tetradogma]

8 hours ago, kirispupis said:

That's an interesting owl, but I agree with you that it went too high. Maybe if it had full crest it would be worth that. Perhaps the bidders had a good idea based on the style where it was from, and it was somewhere rare? For example, personally I would love to own a tet from Cyrus the Younger. He almost certainly used Athenian tets, since he employed Greek mercenaries. However, to date I haven't read anything solid that could be used to differentiate them.

Posting my own Sabakes owl (again) because it's one of my favorite coins. 🙂 It has a number of similarities to the one Roma just sold. They could be from the same hoard.

Egypt, Achaemenid Province. Sabakes, satrap, AR Tetradrachm. Circa 340-333 BCE
16.61g, 25mm, 9h.
Head of Athena to right, wearing earring, necklace, and crested Attic helmet decorated with three olive leaves over visor and a spiral palmette on the bowl / Owl standing to right with head facing, olive sprig with berry and crescent in upper left field; uncertain letters to left, ""Sabakes symbol"" and SWYK (in Aramaic) to right.
Van Alfen Type III, 24-34 var. (O11/R- [unlisted rev. die]); Nicolet-Pierre, Monnaies 18-26 (same obv. die); SNG Copenhagen 4 var. (no letters on left of rev.); BMC 265 var. (same).
Ex collection of Baron Dominique de Chambrier

 

Just looking at the provenance - isn't that the same Baron Dominique de Chambrier the Swiss aristocrat who was allegedly offered 100,000 CHF to say the Eid Mar was part of their collection?

[kirispupis]

4 hours ago, Tetradogma said:

Just looking at the provenance - isn't that the same Baron Dominique de Chambrier the Swiss aristocrat who was allegedly offered 100,000 CHF to say the Eid Mar was part of their collection?

No. I think this was his cousin, who's a part time bartender and probably took less than 100K CHF.

[robinjojo]

On 5/13/2023 at 5:47 AM, kirispupis said:

No. I think this was his cousin, who's a part time bartender and probably took less than 100K CHF.

I didn't notice that provenance.  Well, all I have to say is "I'll drink to that".

Getting back to Lot 199, I must say that the Alpha on the reverse is most unusual.  I've never seen such a style.  I wonder if that was done so that it resembles another character possibly Aramaic or Phoenician?   

Edited May 16, 2023 by robinjojo