Bow and Club Coins of Alexander and After - Anyone have Price?

[Orange Julius]

Hi all, 

A quick self-serving topic. I have this below Herakles Club/Bow coin. Looking at similar examples on acsearch, it looks like the reference attribution for this coin would be either Price 2799 or 2800.

I do not have M. Price's book "The Coinage of in the Name of Alexander the Great and Philip Arrhidaeus"... so I'm hoping one of you may!

I'm interested to know... What IS the difference between Price 2799 and 2800? What does the book say about these coins (dating, whose reign, mint???) ...and which is my coin?

AND! As always... I showed you mine, show me yours... let's see your Club and Bow coins of Alexander and those who followed him. 

Thanks all.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Orange Julius

[Ryro]

Great coin! I like the green deposits of verdigris.

Here's what Price says:

Here's mine. Despite the description, price has these as likely posthumous:

Alexander III 'the Great' (336-323). Ae. Uncertain mint in Western Asia Minor.

Obv: Head of Herakles right, wearing lion’s skin headdress.

Rev: BAΣIΛEΩΣ.

Bow in bowcase (lion's head countermark on bowcase) and club; torch below.

Price 2799.

Condition: Extremely fine.

Weight: 5.7 g.

Diameter: 20 mm.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Ryro

[Ed Snible]

Sometimes you can figure it out from the website:

• https://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2799
  • Symbol (Below): torch with fillets →
• https://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2800
  • Symbol (Below): torch ←

[ominus1]

...welp it just 'cordin' what you want and what they'll pay for...oh....that Price..(don't ya love a smartass..:P...)...in honor of this thread, i've taken another pic o mine...:D (plus a lQQk at all my Greek coins^^)

[Orange Julius]

3 hours ago, Ryro said:

Great coin! I like the green deposits of verdigris.

Here's what Price says:

Here's mine. Despite the description, price has these as likely posthumous:

Alexander III 'the Great' (336-323). Ae. Uncertain mint in Western Asia Minor.

Obv: Head of Herakles right, wearing lion’s skin headdress.

Rev: BAΣIΛEΩΣ.

Bow in bowcase (lion's head countermark on bowcase) and club; torch below.

Price 2799.

Condition: Extremely fine.

Weight: 5.7 g.

Diameter: 20 mm.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Ed Snible said:

Sometimes you can figure it out from the website:

• https://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2799
  • Symbol (Below): torch with fillets →
• https://numismatics.org/pella/id/price.2800
  • Symbol (Below): torch ←

Thank you @Ryro and @Ed Snible for the references and assistance! I like to know the differences behind the reference numbers, so this info is very helpful. 

So… as my torch fire is to the left, my coin is Price 2800 huh. Ok, sounds good.

@Ryro also that’s a nice coin! Mine’s a bit more irregular in shape and although the added mineral color is pretty, the green and the black on the reverse of my coin makes it a bit hard to appreciate the details… as it is a crisply struck and a well preserved coin. Anyway, I like yours a lot!

@ominus1 I like your coin as well! That thunderbolt on the reverse is cool!  The coin looks to have nice relief and is in great condition. Love it! I also like your storage system. It’s kinda like the system I use for coins that have arrived but I have yet to research and get into the binders.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Orange Julius

[Orange Julius]

Ok ok ok... I have another question about the Price reference. There are two references. I'll use Ed's text for copy/paste simplicity:

• Price 2799 - Symbol (Below): torch with fillets →
• Price 2800 - Symbol (Below): torch ←

I'm guessing fillets are the little tassel thingys at the bottom of the "torch." My coin seems to be a mix of the two, "torch with fillets" but "←". If you look at other acsearch listings for Price 2800, you find coins like below, torch ← (no fillets).

Price 2800 example:

My coin:

My coin is torch (fire) left with fillets (tassels). Does that make it Price 2799v, 2800v, or another ref? I'm also just now noticing that the bow case is oriented the other direction. At what point does any of this matter! Haha, oh I love coins. 

So assuming the arrow → points to the top of the object... My coin is:

• Bow case: →
• Club: ←
• Torch with Fillets: ←

...the combination of which seems to be hard to find an example of... out of the 346 coins on acsearch found with the search words "bow club Herakles torch" there are NO examples with the same orientations. Weird. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Orange Julius

[shanxi]

Alexander the Great
Macedonia
Obv. Head of Heracles right, wearing lion’s skin
Rev. ALEXANΔPOY, above, bow and quiver, below, club and gorytos?
AE, 5.92g, 16.7x18.2mm

[Alegandron]

Makedon Alexander III 336-323 BC AE 16 4-1g Salamis-Cyprus mint Herakles club bow quiver SA Price 3143



Makedon Alexander III 336-323 BC AE 19 Quiver Club


Makedon Alexander III 336-323 BC AE 18 Bow Case Club


Makedon Alexander III 336-323 BC AE 17 Quiver Club

[O-Towner]

There's even the little half-unit type (11.8mm, 1.3gms) : Ref: Price 3334

Obv: Head of Herakles right wearing lion-skin headdress

Rev: AΛEΞANΔPOY between bow in bow-case and club; AP below

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by O-Towner

[Ursus]

On 5/7/2023 at 6:47 AM, Orange Julius said:

My coin is torch (fire) left with fillets (tassels). Does that make it Price 2799v, 2800v, or another ref? I'm also just now noticing that the bow case is oriented the other direction. At what point does any of this matter! Haha, oh I love coins. 

Yes, it seems a little arbitrary to me to distinguish these by orientation of the torch while ignoring the different orientations of the bowcase and club. Yet, listing all these small varieties would certainly have made Price's catalogue even more voluminous than it already is...

To me, the fact that Price 2800 is more often than not countermarked is another interesting detail. Both your example coin and my specimen show a countermark that I cannot quite identify and whose function is unknown to me. Maybe someone else knows more or has a theory?

Alexander III “the Great”  (postumous issue), Kingdom of Macedonia, AE unit, 323–310 BC, unknown mint in Asia Minor. Obv: head of Heracles right, wearing lion skin headdress. Rev: ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ, between club and quiver with bow; below, torch (countermarked). 20.5mm, 5.65g. Ref: Price 2800.

[Topcat7]

I think that the moneyers themselves got confused so one of them did away with the torch completely and put a mouse there instead. (LOL)

336-323 B.C. ALEXANDER III (The Great), Kings of Macedon, 

 

[panzerman]

Late to the game....

 

Macedonian Empire

AV Quarter Stater ND

Alexander III

[kirispupis]

Nice pickup! Here are a few rare Herakles with bow + club coins.

Cyprus, Kourion, Pasikrates
circa 325 BCE
Æ 17mm 5.12g, 2h.
In the name and types of Alexander III of Macedon. Head of Herakles to right, wearing lion skin headdress /
Bow-in-bowcase and club; laurel branch below, ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ between.
Price 3113; Cox Curium, 8; ANS 1944.100.26537

 

CYPRUS, Soloi. Pasikrates (Stasikrates)
Circa 330s-310s BCE
Æ Unit 18.5mm, 7.00 g, 9h
In the name and types of Alexander III of Macedon. Head of Herakles right, wearing lion skin
Bow-in-bowcase and club; prow upward below.
Zapiti & Michaelidou 26; Troxell, Alexanders 29; Price 3099

 

Ionia, Erythrai
c. 4th century BCE
Æ 13mm, 1.82g, 3h
Thrasy-, magistrate
Head of Herakles r., wearing lion skin.
R/ Club and bow-in-bowcase.
SNG Copenhagen 598

 

Macedon, Philippi (as Thasian Epeiros [Krenides])
c. 360/59-356 BCE
Æ 10mm, 1.49g, 6h
Head of Herakles r., wearing lion skin.
R/ Club and bow.
Le Rider, Thasiennes 29; AMNG II/2, 1; HGC 3.1, 626

[NewStyleKing]

How is the chronology rationalised?  Mixed Hoards?  Do mixed ( with silver) exist? Mixed with other mints coins? Just how do they do it?  I mean with WM Flinders Petrie seriation he had loads of graves to sample and stratification..... but I can't see a parallel here.  Athens NewStyles are easy by comparison to get conclusions for, but not exact dates- but good enough.

Edited November 29, 2023 by NewStyleKing