Countries, rulers, types ... dies

[Rand]

Apologies if I have missed a thread on interests in die studies or die links. Sorting dies shows the progression of coin minting, mint organisation and helps coin dating. I find it fascinating when coins from the same dies are found in different parts of the world, indicating their circulation and, in historical context, the spread of trade or even migration routes.

 

The below reverse-linked trio from the early Anastasian series links the TERP variety and two PERP helmet varieties (trefoil and no jewel), showing that a workshop produced them around the same time (if the ’S’, means an officina).  

 

For the TERP variety:

• I am aware of 7 coins, all from a single obverse die (I only have the one below). This makes it statistically likely to be a single-die variety.
• This obverse was used with reverse dies with four different officina letters (or no letter). This means dies were shared between the presumed workshops (which is well-known).

 

It would be interesting to know the experiences of others on coins comings from the same or linked dies.

[Ryro]

I've found at least three different obverse die matches to my Rocus crab:

Creperius, Rocus
Denarius. 68 BC. Uncertain mint. (Ffc-657). (Craw-399-1b). (Cal-522). Obv: Bust of the back of the Sea Goddess to the right, C to the right, to the left crab. Rev .: Neptune with trident, in biga pulled by hippocampi to the right, below Q CREPER M (F) / ROCVS. Ag. 3.61 g. Usually struck off center. Very scarce. VF. 
Ex: Tauler & Fau

When I'd posted this discovery it prompted @Sulla80 to create this hilarious gif of the crab scuttling his way across the coin:

Edited April 22, 2023 by Ryro

[John Conduitt]

There's a lot I don't understand about the process.

Did they make all the dies in advance with several die cutters working at the same time? Or did a lone die cutter make one, and start on the next while they put the first to work? If it was a 'serial' production line rather than 'parellel', the matching of obverses and reverses takes on a different meaning. If they made all the dies at once, I don't know if there's anything stopping them switching to a different one the next day and then switching back later.

Did the same person do both sides? Or was it usual for different people to do each? Did one person do all the obverses? If the dies were shared between mints, I imagine there was only one die cutting operation between them, or perhaps only one was allowed to do the obverse.
 

[Deinomenid]

Vague reply but  it hugely depends on circumstance.

If there was a large demand for  coins at a given time (or a large quantity of  bullion that was in need of converting to coins, sometimes simply because of the small markup the mint/ruler  often got from the conversion) then there are a number of examples of more than one operation at once.

Did the same person do both sides - varies hugely with examples proving 2 people from the double signed (2 signatures on a coin) works- see late 5th century Syracuse as an example.)

Did the same person do just one side even? Not always as there's a powerful case that a given artist outsourcing the ethnic to another person. Some of the  ethnics on Greek Sicilian coins that are almost definitely engraved by the same engraver have odd and strange ethnics, sometimes with spelling apparently going   backwards  in time but really being the way a given ethnic "engraver"  knew  how to spell. Eg the omega or omicron in "Of Syracuse" was not used  in a logically obvious way if this wasn't the case.

Did they make dies in advance - yes sometimes. Sorry to be so parochial but there was a romantic theory that the extensive tet output of Syracuse over around a century and especially from 465-400 reflected changing hairstyles and jewelry fashions in a chronological way - that's been disproven in  minutiae  if not  in broader trends - by die studies showing several reverses (Arethusa/goddess heads) with quite different styles being linked to the same obverse. This strongly  suggests that there was a selection of reverse  dies able to be  used at a given  time, at least sometimes.

Were dies shared between  mints - yes, sometimes. There are a number of examples of this  in Greek Italy, especially between  mother cities and daughter. Also as some known engravers worked at different mints (eg Euainetos at Katane and Syracuse, Kimon  probably at Kamarina, the maestro della foglia at Piakos, Gela and Katane). There's even a strange tet of Katane featuring a crab that appears to be straight out of Akragas, suggesting mint-sharing between completely different poleis. That one suggest Euainetos was producing for multiple entities practically at the same  time.

Sorry for the western Greek perspective,  but it's an easier way to answer the question given the help of the signatures and in some cases a long period  of output.

 

[Deinomenid]

Just re more than on engraver on a coin, here's an example of  Eumenes and Eukleides.  It's  just about  possible of course that there was some collaboration, simply because we can't disprove it,  but  it more strongly  suggests a number of obverses and reverses available.

SICILY. Syracuse. ~400BC. Tetradrachm (Silver, 26 mm, 17.31 g, 7 h), signed by the engravers Eumenes on obverse and Eukleidas on the reverse, circa 400 BC.

In the exergue, ΕYΜΗΝΟY.

And below chin, EYKΛ/EIΔA in two lines on diptych.

[El Cazador]

2 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

Just re more than on engraver on a coin, here's an example of  Eumenes and Eukleides.  It's  just about  possible of course that there was some collaboration, simply because we can't disprove it,  but  it more strongly  suggests a number of obverses and reverses available.

SICILY. Syracuse. ~400BC. Tetradrachm (Silver, 26 mm, 17.31 g, 7 h), signed by the engravers Eumenes on obverse and Eukleidas on the reverse, circa 400 BC.

In the exergue, ΕYΜΗΝΟY.

And below chin, EYKΛ/EIΔA in two lines on diptych.

Yours? Great coin - congrats!

[Rand]

On 4/22/2023 at 4:42 PM, John Conduitt said:

There's a lot I don't understand about the process.

I am very interested in all your questions. Sadly, I do not have many answers, and the answers would undoubtedly vary.

 

For the example of the Anastasian series pictured higher in the thread (11/04/491 - 01/09/492; 1 year 4 months 20 days):

• There are at least two die-cutters for obverses (based on styles). One was likely (partially) illiterate or dyslexic with 'typos' in legends. I cannot see any obvious other explanations for TERP and RERP solidi and a recut tremissis die.
• There are two distinct reverse styles: the old 'spiked wing' style transitioned from Zeno (discontinued soon during Anastasian reign) and a newer 'rounded-wing' style. I know only 6 old style dies, as opposed to 23 new style dies. At least one obverse die cutter for Zeno continued a similar style for Anastasius, so some old style reverses were also likely produced under Anastasius. It is thus unlikely there was a large stock of dies in Constantinople then. For such a busy mint, the die production probably parallelled their use.
• There are many control marks on obverses. It is likely that dies for gold coins were highly controlled (e.g., one current reverse per 'officina'). Die progression charts suggest die sharing between 'officinae' rather than random die use. Still, there are too many gaps, which are not helped by restricted access to Greek and Turkish museum collections (at least I have failed so far).
• The obvious disproportion of the outputs challenges the existence of ten workshops based on ten officina letters. Officina 'I' dominates with 26 projected dies, which contrasts to only 42 projected dies for all other officinae together plus coins with no officina, marriage issues, all semisses and all tremisses. This is an interesting topic for discussion.

Kölner Münzkabinett Tyll Kroha Nachfolger. Auction 117. 28/10/2022

Jesús Vico, S.A. Auction 146. 27/10/2016

Edited May 30, 2023 by Rand