Medieval Monday

[JeandAcre]

29 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

I just want to thank everyone for posting the pics and write ups.  I've increased my knowledge of medieval significantly.  Looking at the legends, then matching them to the write up has really helped me recognize the lettering fonts (much easier than using Walker's Reading Medieval European Coins for me)

I've been dabbling in this field for about 10-15 years, but mostly low end pieces that I try to attribute (with minimal success).  I do have some good references like Grierson's Coins of Medieval Europe and Medieval Europe Coinage volume 1, Lhotka's medieval series Reprints from the Numismatist, and Roberts' silver coins of France.  Maybe its time to sit down with the books again

Don't be surprised if I dig out and post my 2 dozen Low end Freisacher Pfennigs for attribution help.  About 15 years ago, I found a copy of Corpus Nummorum Austriacorum Band 1 for $100 but didn't pull the trigger.  Big regret to this day 

@Oldhoopster, I wish I knew of any one reference for medieval lettering, especially regarding coins.  Nope, getting zero traction with that.

What I did instead was to live with this stuff longer than anyone fully in possession of his faculties is supposed to, including no less obsessive reference to lettering in other media, whether manuscripts, monuments, seals, and what am I forgetting.  

If there was one dynamic to pay attention to first, it might be the lag, specifically in coins, in the transition from Carolingian /Romanesque lettering (more closely resembling Classical Roman) to various forms of Gothic.  On coin legends, fully realized 'Gothic' often doesn't show up until the later 13th and 14th centuries, well after it was par for the course in other, more technologically user-friendly media, only starting with manuscripts.

That's why, for one easy example, I like the "h," rather than the still, effectively Romanesque "H," on the reverse of the Edward denier of Aquitaine posted today.  That is substantively Gothic; as such, both relatively early, and almost vicariously embarrassingly late.  

Especially in the Freisacher series, I can't think of an example that doesn't use the otherwise anachronistic, increasingly clunky 'Romanesque' lettering into the 13th century.  --No worries; as in the above example, the same was true in France.

Edited August 8, 2022 by JeandAcre

[VD76]

Crusaders. Lordship of Beirut. John of Ibelin (1205-1236), Billon Denier
Obverse : + IOhANNЄS around cross pattée, pellets in second and third quarters .
Reverse : + DE BЄRITI around castle
CCS 4 

[seth77]

51 minutes ago, ewomack said:

Philppe IV Silver Denier Tournois, 18mm, 1285 - 1310; Obv: + PhILIPPVS REX, Rev: + TVRONVS CIVIS, Duplessy#223

Duplessy 223 is the 'common coinage' for Philippe III and Philippe IV 1280-1290

[Oldhoopster]

29 minutes ago, JeandAcre said:

@Oldhoopster, I wish I knew of any one reference for medieval lettering, especially regarding coins.  Nope, getting zero traction with that.

What I did instead was to live with this stuff longer than anyone fully in possession of his faculties is supposed to, including no less obsessive reference to lettering in other media, whether manuscripts, monuments, seals, and what am I forgetting.  

If there was one dynamic to pay attention to first, it might be the lag, specifically in coins, in the transition from Carolingian /Romanesque lettering (more closely resembling Classical Roman) to various forms of Gothic.  On coin legends, fully realized 'Gothic' often doesn't show up until the later 13th and 14th centuries, well after it was par for the course in other, more technologically user-friendly media, only starting with manuscripts.

That's why, for one easy example, I like the "h," rather than the still, effectively Romanesque "H," on the reverse of the Edward denier of Aquitaine posted today.  That is substantively Gothic; as such, both relatively early, and almost vicariously embarrassingly late.  

Especially in the Freisacher series, I can't think of an example that doesn't use the otherwise anachronistic, increasingly clunky 'Romanesque' lettering into the 13th century.  --No worries; as in the above example, the same was true in France.

I look at the great pics people post, try to figure out the legend, then check it against the reference write up.  Since I've been following the  medieval monday thread, I've noticed a major improvement in reading the legends. Plus it gives me the opportunity to look at a wide variety of attributed coins.  The more you look, the more you learn and remember. Thanks

[JeandAcre]

@Oldhoopster, Thank you for the good news!

It's always a joy --who doesn't need this, in any context?-- to be reminded that native intelligence counts for A Lot.

[John Conduitt]

15 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

I look at the great pics people post, try to figure out the legend, then check it against the reference write up.  Since I've been following the  medieval monday thread, I've noticed a major improvement in reading the legends. Plus it gives me the opportunity to look at a wide variety of attributed coins.  The more you look, the more you learn and remember. Thanks

I've found this is the best approach too. The scripts aren't as variable as they appear, but each moneyer has his quirks. I almost always get caught out by ligated letters. If I have a coin I need to identify, it invariably helps to search for other examples (or what I think it might be) and compare lettering and letter positions. All suddenly becomes clear when I find a match.

[ewomack]

Here are a few basic books that helped me get into Medieval coins - they all have their ups and downs, but taken together they provide a decent overview of the whole incomprehensible spectrum of medievals. The Torongo book appears out of print and goes for heftier prices, but the other two look readily available. I bought my copy of the Walker book at the ANA gift shop when I attended a Summer Seminar on hammered coin striking.

[seth77]

Paul Torongo was very kind and helpful when I started my interest in the Netherlands before the pandemic hit. His articles on imitation groats are also available on Academia and are extremely useful for collectors. In fact when you go through them you can almost feel that they were written for collectors first and foremost as they are clear, concise and very thorough on types and classification. 

[ewomack]

Late Medieval

Mittelalter Deutschland. Pfennig (1441). Leichte Prägeschwäche. Sehr schön-vorzüglich. Augsburg-Bistum u. Stadt (gemeinschaftlich).

[John Conduitt]

Edward the Confessor Expanding Cross Heavy Issue Penny, 1050-1053London. Silver, 1.71g. Diademed and draped bust left, trefoil-tipped sceptre before; + EDÞE: •RD REX :. Expanding cross; + L•EOFRED ON LVNDENE (S 1177).

[JeandAcre]

With apologies, I'm going to be a lazy (expletive of choice) and lift one from the old forum.  --Except that the difference between the two platforms still involved some back and forth between saving stuff on a thumb drive, and uploading it from there.  The kind of thing for which I have exactly zero native aptitude.

Edward I, penny of Bristol, Class 3c, c. 1280-1.

Obv. +EDW R' ANGL' DNS hyB (Edwardus rex Anglie /-orum, dominus Hybernie).

Rev. (from 7 o'clock:) BRISTOLLIE VILLA.
My one and only problem with English hammered is that, unless you want to compete with the British Museum and the Fitzwilliam, there effectively isn't a feudal series complementing the royal one, as there are in France, the Low Countries, Germany, and even (on a smaller scale) Spain. By way of compensating for this, I'm kind of hard-wired to associate the mints of the royal coins with neighboring baronial castles. This is especially easy to do from mints in or near the Welsh Marches and the Scottish border, where the the local baronage was allowed greater autonomy by the Crown, as an ongoing concession to the less than settled conditions.
This example might have been in circulation during the career of Maurice 'the Magnanimous,' second Lord Berkeley (1271-1326). Here are two views of his tomb at Bristol Cathedral.

And here's one view of Berkeley Castle, not far north of Bristol, with the mid-12th-c. shell keep (where Edward II was imprisoned) surrounded by outer walls and residential buildings, variously altered and rebuilt over the 13th and 14th centuries.

Edited August 15, 2022 by JeandAcre

[Dafydd]

As it's Medieval Monday I thought I would roll out my last acquisition which is a Stephen Silver Penny,

Stephen 1135 - 1154. Norwich Mint, S.2178.  Ex-Michael Trenerry,

CROSS MALINE "WATFORD" TYPE PENNY ON NON NORWICH

SEE ALLEN BNJ 2012 PAGE 113 . Not the greatest of portraits but a bit better than my photo.  

I see no resemblance 🙂 

[VD76]

Germany. Speyer. Heinrich III 1039-1056. AR Denar . Speyer mint.

 +SCA MARIA half-length portrait of Mary with hand raised, in front head of Christ Child facing 

Church, therein CH/ON. 

Dannenberg 838

[JeandAcre]

Just found the pics of this, in kind of a weird place.  My 'bucket list' Tealby of Henry II.

 

 

AR penny of London, Cross-crosslet / ‘Tealby’ coinage, class A2 (c. 1158-1161).

Obv. Henry facing, crowned, holding a sceptre surmounted by a cross in his right hand. (His hand, and the jewelled left /right-hand edge of his cloak, extend to the lower part of the outer edge.)

[From 8 o’clock:] +h[EN]rI rE[X] ANG (‘HENRI REX ANG[LIE];’ Henry, King of England).

Rev. Cross; St. Andrew’s crosslets in each angle.

[From 11 o’clock:] +SWETM[AN ON L]VN (‘SWETMAN ON LVN[DE];’ the moneyer Swetman, in London.)

North 952 /2 (and p. 218, ‘Tealby Coinage: Mints and Moneyers’), Spink 1137.

 

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, JeandAcre said:

Just found the pics of this, in kind of a weird place.  My 'bucket list' Tealby of Henry II.

 

 

AR penny of London, Cross-crosslet / ‘Tealby’ coinage, class A2 (c. 1158-1161).

Obv. Henry facing, crowned, holding a sceptre surmounted by a cross in his right hand. (His hand, and the jewelled left /right-hand edge of his cloak, extend to the lower part of the outer edge.)

[From 8 o’clock:] +h[EN]rI rE[X] ANG (‘HENRI REX ANG[LIE];’ Henry, King of England).

Rev. Cross; St. Andrew’s crosslets in each angle.

[From 11 o’clock:] +SWETM[AN ON L]VN (‘SWETMAN ON LVN[DE];’ the moneyer Swetman, in London.)

North 952 /2 (and p. 218, ‘Tealby Coinage: Mints and Moneyers’), Spink 1137.

 

Nice. I'm yet to get a Tealby. They're all missing something that got lost in the strike, which makes it very hard to decide on one. I don't think I've seen one with more legend than this!

[JeandAcre]

Many thanks, @John Conduitt, and very best with your search for the right Tealby.

...It's a shame how, where strikes are concerned, the English coins of the period pick up the bad influence of the Salian Germans.  Almost ironically, since the pennies of Henry I also seem to emulate the remarkably elaborate designs of the Salian issues.  (...Thank you --short-hand for 'you knew this'-- Henry's daughter, the Empress Maud, initially married Heinrich V, the last Salian. It's an easy guess that the extensive diplomatic engagement spilled over into the numismatic sphere.)  Especially on my budget, I face exactly the same problem with the German denars.

On the brighter side, for what it's worth, the good strikes of English pennies to either side of this much of the twelfth century are really distinctive, relative to Continental issues generally.

[John Conduitt]

Here's another Henry II. The strike isn't great even though it's not a Tealby 😉 But the provenance is pretty good.

Henry II Class 1b1 Penny, 1180-1182Winchester. Silver, 1.41g. Facing bust with sceptre; 2 hair curls left and 6 right instead of 5; hENRICVS · REX. Short voided cross with four pellets in each quarter; ADAM · ON · WINC (S 1344; SCBI Mass 490, same dies; Winchester Mint 2434ff). From the Academic Collection of Lord Stewartby. From the Croft Bank, Wainfleet (Lincolnshire) Hoard 1990 of 383 pennies and halfpennies found in a jug, deposited by 1205.

In 1180, the moneyers at Winchester were moved to a single mint building on the site of the former royal palace, which had been destroyed during the Anarchy.

[JeandAcre]

Forget this one; the one below expands it.  Ran into technical issues.

Edited August 22, 2022 by JeandAcre

[JeandAcre]

No, @John Conduitt, I for one have No Trouble At All with the strike!  The subtle double striking on the obverse legend is, how can I say it, endearing. 

...And, Yipes, talk about provenance!  I'm just kind of Done.  People like Stewartby are exactly why provenance exists.  Never mind the hoard, just for one little minute. 

...It's always great to be reminded of the (western) medievalists like you who are here.  Yes, it's a bother to see the paucity of OPs in this category.  I'm one of the culprits; been sitting on two drafts, both in the low multiple tens of pages.  After indefinitely shelving the first one, out of sheer fright at the length, I began another one on a French feudal series.  Thinking it would be an easy expansion of one from the other forum.  Ha, ha; the Google Docs version is now at 23 pages.  ...Right, a perfect storm of numismatic content, historical context, and Autism spectrum.  Sometimes, you just can't win.  Oh, well.

Edited August 22, 2022 by JeandAcre

[Nap]

Here's a short cross of Henry II.  I have a Tealby but it's wretched and I don't even have a photo.

Both the coin and the pic have some issues.  But it's the placeholder for now.

There was an absolutely fantastic Tealby once offered on a dealer's web site, it was well struck and legible, and even had red wax from prior photography.  Photography of a Tealby years ago was almost unheard of (they were usually lumped into multi-coin lots)- this was a special coin.  But it was expensive.  And while I thought about it, someone else bought it.  Sigh.  But there are a small handful of good ones out there!

[Prieure de Sion]

11 minutes ago, Nap said:

Both the coin and the pic have some issues.  But it's the placeholder for now.

If it matters - I really like the coin. 😉 

[JeandAcre]

On 8/23/2022 at 4:14 AM, Prieure de Sion said:

If it matters - I really like the coin. 😉 

@Nap, it's an easy guess that some of us are wishing you luck on doing better than this 'placeholder,' from decidedly self-interested motives.  (Memo to self: you have a post to do in the 'Cabinet' thread.)

[JeandAcre]

Bishopric of Metz.  Etienne de Mousson, bishop 1120-1162.  Denar.  

Obv. St. Stephen (longtime patron saint of Metz), holding martyr's palm and Gospel book (extreme right).

(From 7 o'clock:) S ST[E]PH[A]

Rev. Hand with jewelled sleeve, blessing and holding crosier.  (From 11 o'clock:) METE[NSIS?]

This bishop is sometimes called 'Etienne de Bar.'  But it was only his elder brother who acquired that county (in the extreme, likely Francophone west of Upper Lorraine) by marriage.

I fell into collecting denars of Metz mainly for their combination of funly elaborate designs on a small module.  ...But meanwhile, here's a denier of a descendant of Etienne's brother, as count of Bar.

Henri II, 1214-1239.  Denier of Bar.  These follow the module of the French denier, while emulating the often uninspired strikes of German denars. 

Obv. The arms of Bar: two fish (barbels; a 'canting device' or visual pun); star (?) between.  [+B]ARRI DVCIS. 

(The use of 'canting' arms --generally relying on the French vernacular-- evokes the 'peigne' (comb) on issues of the county of Champagne.  In that instance, the phenomenon is numismatic, but not heraldic.)  

Rev. Cross; fleurs de lis in two angles.  XhENRICVS COmES.  (Roberts --best I have for this-- 4785.)

The fleurs de lis seem to evoke the prevailing French cultural influence, despite Bar(-le-Duc) still having been under Lotharingian, i. e. German imperial suzerainty.  Henri died in the company of Thibaut IV of Champagne and Hugues IV, Duke of Burgundy, on the 'Barons' Crusade' --mysteriously left out of the numbered ones.  Among the aristocracy of eastern France and western 'Germany,' ties were ubiquitous, often at the dynastic level.

Edited August 29, 2022 by JeandAcre

[John Conduitt]

21 minutes ago, JeandAcre said:

Bishopric of Metz.  Etienne de Mousson, bishop 1120-1162.  Denar.  

Obv. St. Stephen (longtime patron saint of Metz), holding martyr's palm and Gospel book (extreme right).

(From 7 o'clock:) S ST[E]PH[A]

Rev. Hand with jewelled sleeve, blessing and holding crosier.  (From 11 o'clock:) METE[NSIS?]

This bishop is sometimes called 'Etienne de Bar.'  But it was only his elder brother who acquired that county (in the extreme, likely Francophone west of Upper Lorraine) by marriage.

I fell into collecting denars of Metz mainly for their combination of funly elaborate designs on a small module.  ...But meanwhile, here's a denier of a descendant of Etienne's brother, as count of Bar.

Henri II, 1214-1239.  Denier of Bar.  These follow the module of the French denier, while emulating the often uninspired strikes of German denars. 

Obv. The arms of Bar: two fish (barbels; a 'canting device' or visual pun); star (?) between.  [+B]ARRI DVCIS. 

(The use of 'canting' arms --generally relying on the French vernacular-- evokes the 'peigne' (comb) on issues of the county of Champagne.  In that instance, the phenomenon is numismatic, but not heraldic.)  

Rev. Cross; fleurs de lis in two angles.  XhENRICVS COmES.  (Roberts --best I have for this-- 4785.)

The fleurs de lis seem to evoke the prevailing French cultural influence, despite Bar(-le-Duc) still having been under Lotharingian, i. e. German imperial suzerainty.  Henri died in the company of Thibaut IV of Champagne and Hugues IV, Duke of Burgundy, on the 'Barons' Crusade' --mysteriously left out of the numbered ones.  Among the aristocracy of eastern France and western 'Germany,' ties were ubiquitous, often at the dynastic level.

It's Monday already!

As you might say, that Metz coin is wow. I can't afford to venture into Continental Europe, but you're always tempting me. 

I'm going with a coin on the topic of coins that copy other coins. This is from Muscovy, but the reverse is a copy of a Golden Horde dang. Gibberish, of course.

Vasily II The Blind Denga, 1425-1433

Moscow. Silver, 0.64g. Rider with falcon right. Imitation of Arabic inscription (Metz 11).

[JeandAcre]

No, @John Conduitt, that's the kind of thing that warrants a cake-eating imogee, never mind the cookie one.  It's a brilliant convergence of blazing aesthetic fireworks, and profound historical sgnificance. 

(--Just never mind, for a minute, the minor detail that my own familiarity with the period is effectively nonexistent.  Why we all need two lifetimes for this stuff.)