Medieval Monday

[JeandAcre]

Thanks for your magnanimous comments, @Severus Alexander.  ...At risk of the obvious --along with my near-total ignorance of the series-- the juxtaposition of the obverse legend and reverse motif is saying Arab-Byzantine.  Walking even deeper into the guess pool, I'd want to think the earlier phases of the series. 

[John Conduitt]

30 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

Very cool new stuff @ewomack(love the portrait!!, @John Conduitt(2nd reign, excellent!), and @JeandAcre(wow, nice analysis!)

Here's my newest whatsit (1g, 18mm).  Any ideas?

I have no idea either, but the sand patina and pictographic design must make it Arabic. I suspect the guy with sunglasses is upside down.

[JeandAcre]

On 8/1/2022 at 10:21 AM, ewomack said:

France ARCHBISHOPRIC OF VIENNE - ANONYMOUS AR Denier, 11th - 12th Centuries; Obv: .+. S. M. VIENNA. (Saint Maurice of Vienne), profile of Saint Maurice, facing left; Rev: MAXIMA. GALL (Grand Gaul)

@ewomack, that's a fantastic earlier example. 

The reverse legend actually refers to Vienne's assertion that they were the highest episcopal see in Gaul.  ...And they had competition! 

In the 13th century, the cathedral at Magdeburg, another place where Maurice was the patron saint, did a little better job with the rendering ...but only with resort to a different medium.

Edited August 8, 2022 by JeandAcre

[Severus Alexander]

I've seen Bulgarian coins with standing figures looking something like how I first posted it.  But I suppose you guys are probably right, and it's text upside down:

I've never seen anything quite like the reverse motif...

[John Conduitt]

20 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

I've seen Bulgarian coins with standing figures looking something like how I first posted it.  But I suppose you guys are probably right, and it's text upside down:

I've never seen anything quite like the reverse motif...

I think it's from Khwarezm. They struck a wide range of copper jitals and fals.

Edited August 1, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Severus Alexander]

21 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I think it's from Khwarezm. They struck a wide range of copper jitals and fals.

Thanks, I will check that! The weight is sure low, though. I was thinking maybe a Golden Horde or related pul?

[JeandAcre]

...What, Can it Really Be True that no one spotted the 'Chi-Rho' on the reverse?  

That's where I was going with the guess that it was Arab-Byzantine.  I don't have any illustrated references in print, either on the series, or its collective prototype, but it seemed too obvious to even mention.

[John Conduitt]

22 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

Thanks, I will check that! The weight is sure low, though. I was thinking maybe a Golden Horde or related pul?

Well, there is a good chance of that. A lot of the mints are in the same cities and the style is similar. But I can't find it in Pirsov (or Robert Tye, for that matter). A lot of these copper issues just get lumped together e.g. Album 1746 is 'AE Jital, inscriptional issues'. Tye 321 seems to have a similar inscription but not the reverse.

It might be on Zeno somewhere, but I can't find it.

Edited August 1, 2022 by John Conduitt

[John Conduitt]

3 minutes ago, JeandAcre said:

...What, Can it Really Be True that no one spotted the 'Chi-Rho' on the reverse?  

That's where I was going with the guess that it was Arab-Byzantine.  I don't have any illustrated references in print, either on the series, or its collective prototype, but it seemed too obvious to even mention.

I thought that 🤣 Or maybe an arrangement of lituus(es) on a prutah...

Edited August 1, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Severus Alexander]

Thanks for all the thought on this guys, much appreciated!  While it does resemble a chi-rho, this could also be coincidental.  The sort of puls I had in mind are these from the Black Sea area, for example:

[JeandAcre]

@John Conduitt, Thank you for that!  That's a relief.

Meanwhile, I had no luck navigating the Zeno website for Arab-Byzantine, but here's a candidate for a possible Byzantine prototype, from Wildwinds.

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/byz/justin_I/sb0075.jpg

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/byz/justin_I/i.html

...And, Nope, Wildwinds refuses to let me copy and paste a picture.  You'll have to just look it up.  Grrrrrrr.  The page lists two pentanummiums of Justin I, Constantinople and Nicomedia, SB 75 and 92. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by JeandAcre

[John Conduitt]

31 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

Thanks for all the thought on this guys, much appreciated!  While it does resemble a chi-rho, this could also be coincidental.  The sort of puls I had in mind are these from the Black Sea area, for example:

Yes they are the sort of thing. The design on yours is elusive, though, and the patina on yours is putting me off the Golden Horde, but I could easily be wrong. There were quite a lot of similar coins produced across the region as far away as the Ottomans, so there are options. Perhaps someone in the Non-Western forum can read the little bit of text that there is. Grinya on Numista would probably nail it.

Edited August 1, 2022 by John Conduitt

[Severus Alexander]

@JeandAcre, I have doubts about your early Byzantine imitative suggestion for two main reasons.  First the weight (and fabric), this coin is just far too thin and light for that.  Second, neither Pottier nor Foss list anything like it.  That said, it could possibly be some kind of later imitation, but the regular star shape with each point hooked just looks like an intentional patterned design to me with not relationship to the chi-rho.

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

Perhaps someone in the Non-Western forum can read the little bit of text that there is.

To me the legible word (or part word) right in the middle looks like 'ain then (gh-or-f-or-q) and then L. But I don't know a word that fits with that.  Calling @DLTcoins or someone... we need some help! 🤷‍♂️ 

[JeandAcre]

Thanks for that, @Severus Alexander.  ...But, from here, we need to be vigilant about the distinctions between similarities in weight and module,  and imitaions of the potentially operative motifs.  The latter could have proceeded independently of any criteria relative to the denomination.

Edited August 2, 2022 by JeandAcre

[DLTcoins]

To my eye, the figure in question is six equal hook shapes forming a star pattern, not a chi-rho at all.

If I had to hazard a guess, the partial word in question might be the letters عظ of الاعظم (al-a'zam, "very great"), often used with titles like al-sultan.

Note to self: ignore the urge to check the boards "one last time" just before going to bed.

Edited August 2, 2022 by DLTcoins

[JeandAcre]

@DLTcoins, I'm finally seeing that.  Yep, I think you're at least as likely to be as right as I am to be wrong.  Guess I just had 'Arab-Byzantine' on the brain.

[VD76]

 

Principality of Antioch . Roger of Salerno, Regent (1112-1119), Æ Follis first type, overstruck on Tancred’s fourth type .
19mm, 2.18 g
Obverse : Christ nimbate, right hand raised in benediction, remnants of the underlying Tancred follis can be seen in the letters IC below the figure of Christ and near the rim in the lower right quadrant .
Reverse : Cross, DNE / SAL / FT / RO (Domine salvum fac tuum Rogerium) in quarters .
Metcalf 86ff ; CCS 7
Ex. CNG 139, Lot: 435. ( 05/10/2006 ) ; Ex. The Trappendreher Collection ; Ex. Baldwin's Auction 68 - 28th-29th September 2010 , lot 3803 .

[Severus Alexander]

23 hours ago, DLTcoins said:

To my eye, the figure in question is six equal hook shapes forming a star pattern, not a chi-rho at all.

If I had to hazard a guess, the partial word in question might be the letters عظ of الاعظم (al-a'zam, "very great"), often used with titles like al-sultan.

Note to self: ignore the urge to check the boards "one last time" just before going to bed.

Thanks, @DLTcoins!  Al-a'zam seems like a good possibility.  And yes, the hooked star is exactly what I was seeing too.  The fact that you don't recognize the type despite your wide experience suggest to me it must be at least somewhat scarce, and so my spidey senses didn't lead me astray when I tossed in a bid! 🙂 It'll be fun pursuing this one further, though it seems it may take a while...

[JeandAcre]

This one is an upgrade, but as such, it was kind of called for.

Edward I, as prince and duke of Aquitaine, 1252-1272.

Obv. Lion passant /leopard, facing.  +EDVVARD' FILI' [....]

Rev. [...]+h. REGIS ANGLIE  (Edward, son of Henry, King of England --a relatively early instance of the substantive 'Anglie,' rather than 'Anglorum,' connoting the English people.)

Duplessy 1037; Spink (Scotland, Ireland, the Islands, and Anglo-Gallic) 8013.

Edward played a key role in the later phases of the 'Barons' War' under his father, but is also known during the same period for having been an enthusiastic tourneyer, especially in France. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by JeandAcre

[John Conduitt]

20 minutes ago, JeandAcre said:

a relatively early instance of the substantive 'Anglie,'

Aethelred II had 'REX ANGL' on his coins around AD1000 but in England they mostly didn't mention it until Edward I's recoinage in 1279.

Edward I Class 3d (New Coinage) Long Cross Farthing, 1280-1281Tower. Silver, 11mm, 0.32g. Facing bust; +E R ANGLIE. Long cross and pellets; LON-DON-IEN-SIS (London mint). (S 1445A). The first farthings.

[JeandAcre]

@John Conduitt, that's a brilliant example, especially for the creativity, never mind economy, of the legends on that kind of a flan.  I really need the iconically Medieval Latin form, 'Londoniensis.'

...Wow.  It's taking an effort to keep the admiration safely above the mere envy.  --No worries; think I'll do okay with that.

[seth77]

Sigh, another Monday with no new medievals.
 

 

[JeandAcre]

@seth77, this is barely into a minute of it, but the music and video (serious throat-clearing) 'covers a multitude of sins.'  I'm needing to Wiki these people.

(Edit:) Nothing on Wiki, either French or English.  Found this from Google.

(I like these people.  A Lot.  Thanks.)

https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/saelkie-folk-music

Edited August 8, 2022 by JeandAcre

[Oldhoopster]

I just want to thank everyone for posting the pics and write ups.  I've increased my knowledge of medieval significantly.  Looking at the legends, then matching them to the write up has really helped me recognize the lettering fonts (much easier than using Walker's Reading Medieval European Coins for me)

I've been dabbling in this field for about 10-15 years, but mostly low end pieces that I try to attribute (with minimal success).  I do have some good references like Grierson's Coins of Medieval Europe and Medieval Europe Coinage volume 1, Lhotka's medieval series Reprints from the Numismatist, and Roberts' silver coins of France.  Maybe its time to sit down with the books again

Don't be surprised if I dig out and post my 2 dozen Low end Freisacher Pfennigs for attribution help.  About 15 years ago, I found a copy of Corpus Nummorum Austriacorum Band 1 for $100 but didn't pull the trigger.  Big regret to this day 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[ewomack]

Philppe IV Silver Denier Tournois, 18mm, 1285 - 1310; Obv: + PhILIPPVS REX, Rev: + TVRONVS CIVIS, Duplessy#223