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NYINC Show report


savitale
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Took the Amtrak down from Boston at zero-dark-thirty, arriving at the relatively new and surprisingly modern/nice Moynihan Train Hall.
 

513C175A-813E-4623-B4CF-AF3C3D80E66C.jpeg.8f15086dc8da46216263ac1b065da8da.jpeg
 
Walked uptown through a cloudy, drizzly day to 47th street and entered the Intercontinental Hotel by 11:30am. Registration was not crowed but a bit slow to process. Paid $125 by credit card. Saw Frank Robinson checking in who I know only by name and good reputation. There is a Coat Check, FYI.
 
I had read previously that you need to get your purchases picked out within the first 15 minutes or all the good stuff would be gone. I was ready for a bit of a scrum. I checked out the gathering crowd where I observed a lot of white hair. I figured I could take most of those guys pretty easy. I noted the ones with canes as I suspected they could be used as weapons.
 
The photo shows the Early Birds lining up on the stairs to to bourse floor. I was 8th in line.
 
51B83D5D-302C-405A-8526-8915DF9313C5.jpeg.e8647d7f8955a8b6cf82e62dacfc8e1d.jpeg
 
Entry was not the mad dash that I was prepared for. It was uneventful. The need for rushing to table X may be less important these days. As reported in another thread, Leu and Nomos posted their fixed price list prior to the show, so you could have browsed and bought prior to the show opening if you really needed first shot. CNG did have their Winter Numismatic Review coins for sale prior to emailing it out tonight, so that was definitely worth seeing early, though coins were not flying off the table by any means. I will admit that I am not in any secret inner circles where fine coins are discussed in hushed voices, so perhaps I missed something. But as far as I could observe there was no great sucking sound of coins being vacuumed up immediately.
 
The bourse is divided into three areas: two ballrooms and a hallway/foyer/lobby connecting them. The layout was not good, but I don’t think as a collector it made much difference. 
 
38BBC874-E965-46A9-9624-44695F1A147C.jpeg.5cd84494eaa13ff1e6e2b1a94014e97b.jpeg
 
CB921BD3-212E-464B-9D55-5CD93A6EB745.jpeg.e200aefc56bb6c1d27fe551b432b5678.jpeg
 
2519EAB6-E37D-4791-BEC7-911C28C3BA03.jpeg.6577b87243d839fa105efc9e44e06372.jpeg
 
 
The show is not large by national standards.  If your interests are reasonably narrow you could browse all the relevant tables in a couple hours. About half the tables are World and half are Ancient, so for most of us that reduces the burden by about a factor of 2. There are also the grading companies and auction consignment tables most of us can skip. I made three laps around the bourse with time to spare. Of course if you are a chatty type you can spend unlimited time talking to dealers. But on that note I will mention that most tables were busy doing real business on Thursday, so intensive chit-chat may be better reserved for Friday or Saturday.
 
Tables were busy and deals were being done. The dealers I asked seemed happy with Day 1. I did not see much cash changing hands. I think in part that is due to two peculiarities of this show. If you are a collector and you buy something cash-and-carry at the show, you have to pay NYC sales tax which is not trivial. Second some (maybe all?) foreign dealers have their coins at the show on temporary export licenses. So if you “buy” a coin they will invoice you next week and they will ship it to you following proper export procedures. Now I can’t say every dealer abides by those rules 100% of the time but that was my experience. I did “buy” two coins this way but I obviously don’t have them to share.
 
Price-wise the material ran the gamut. Harlan J. Berk had a $15 “junk bin”, Educational Coin Company had piles of $20-100 coins, I saw a few six figure coins and of course everything in between. Many dealers had boxes behind their table with who-knows-what. I would not let price point be a filter regarding whether or not to attend.
 
I browsed every table but spent more time with Leu, CNG, Edward J. Waddell, Kunker, and a US dealer whose name I can’t recall but claims to be 88 years old. I also consigned two coins for sale with Great Collections. I hate trying to sell coins myself, just hate it.
 
I left the show at 5:30pm and walked down the neon (now LED) jungle that is 5th Avenue.
 
553C1927-882A-4113-A0B3-9BD5CF8DE32A.jpeg.41d3aaf61faedc872a464965d7db1f73.jpeg
 
The light show alone is practically worth the cost of NYINC admission. I had dinner at Jacob’s Pickles back at the Moynihan Train Hall. If I am ever faced with having to pick my last meal, it will be their honey fried chicken and biscuits.

4C3F00F2-FEEC-4298-AC5F-142C4B7ED981.jpeg.395b1ca67a55f780fae0c4a632cabdae.jpeg
 
I do suggest that ancient coin collectors should go to NYINC, either once as a bucket list item, or regularly if you’re local-ish. Happy to discuss with anyone if Thursday is the right choice for them.
 
 
 

 

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5 hours ago, savitale said:

 

If you are a collector and you buy something cash-and-carry at the show, you have to pay NYC sales tax which is not trivial. Second some (maybe all?) foreign dealers have their coins at the show on temporary export licenses. So if you “buy” a coin they will invoice you next week and they will ship it to you following proper export procedures. Now I can’t say every dealer abides by those rules 100% of the time but that was my experience. I did “buy” two coins this way but I obviously don’t have them to share.

I am glad you enjoyed your day. But this part is completely inconsistent with my own experiences at NYINC, both today and every year I've attended since back in the 1990s.  I have never heard of a dealer charging NYC sales tax on a cash sale. Not to me or anyone else. I bought six coins today (not counting the Nomos FPL coin I ordered and paid for online this morning); I paid cash for five and gave a personal check for the other one. Nobody even mentioned sales tax -- except Nomos, which explained that if they refunded the shipping and insurance charges totaling 35 Euros, they would have to charge me sales tax, which of course would be in a much higher amount.

Nor have I ever heard of foreign dealers at NYINC not letting the customer take the coin with them right away. Perhaps it's different with countries like Spain or Italy or Israel which require export permits for all or most coins, but I bought coins today from British, German, and Swiss dealers, and took them all with me without any issues! Including the British dealer, who let me take the coin I bought even though I paid by personal check, without waiting for it to clear.  

I arrived about 1:30 pm today and was there until about 6:30. Unfortunately, I did not run into any fellow Numisforum members today -- and nobody found me -- except that I was very pleased to meet and chat for a while with @Phil Davis , who was manning the HJB table together with Aaron Berk. I also enjoyed talking with Perry Siegel of Herakles Numismatics, as well as Karl Stephens. I had a long talk with Dr. Martina Dieterle, having very little to do with coins -- the village in Baden she comes from isn't very far from the village where my my grandmother was born and where that part of my family lived for more than 300 years, as well as other towns and villages where my ancestors lived.  

Besides HJB, Herakles, Karl Stephens, and Dr. Dieterle, the tables I spent time at included Nomos, Baldwins, Keith Candiotti, Noonans, Zuzim, William Goetz (a dealer in European historical and art medals), and Charles Davis (the numismatic book dealer). There were quite a few tables I only glanced at, and kept walking once I realized that 90% of their stock was slabbed! By the time I got to Roma's table, it was closing up and @Richard Beale had apparently left. So I didn't get to tell him that Roma seems to be just about everyone's # 1 go-to auction house, at least according to my little survey!

Anyway, even though there were some tables I'm sorry I didn't get to, I don't think I'll be returning for any of the final three days. I spent more than enough money today on the seven coins I bought! 

A brief list: 

1. Rhodian AR drachm from Nomos AG. Here are the Nomos description and photo:

ISLANDS OFF CARIA, Rhodos. Rhodes. Circa 88/42 BC-AD 14. Drachm (Silver, 19mm, 4.13 g, 6 h), struck under the magistrate Kritiokles. Radiate head of Helios facing, turnedslightly to the right. Rev. Ρ - Ο / ΚΡΙΤΟΚΛΗΣ Rose seen from above; below, corn ear to left.Ashton & Weiss 142 (A36/P140). BMC Caria 337-8 (same obverse die). SNG Keckman 742 (same obverse die). SNG Lockett 2971 (same dies) With a wonderfully sharp and dramatic head of Helios. Extremely fine.
From an American collection, ex Obolos 15, 24 May 2020, [Lot] 398.

image.jpeg.ad70d4ec31e295208cc049bfa2bb3a62.jpeg

I think it actually looks better in hand!

2. Claudius I AE Quadrans from Herakles Numismatics. The dealer's description: Diameter: 17 mm. Weight: 3.08 grams. Mint: Rome, A.D. 41. Obverse: Three-legged modius. Reverse: Large S C. Reference: RIC 84.

image.jpeg.ce94e5df44cc2fe1cec32e37789ed5af.jpeg

I have no photos or full writeups of the others yet:

3. Dr. Martina Dieterle: Claudius II Gothicus, Roman Alexandria tetradrachm, Year 2, Obv. Laureate, draped & cuirassed bust right / Rev. Jugate busts of crowned Nilus and his consort Euthenia. Emmett 3892.2, K&G 104.31, Dattari (Savio) 5405, Geissen 3044.

4. Zuzim: Hadrian denarius, Victory w/trophy, RIC 396, RSC 1132.

5 & 6. HJB: a pair of very inexpensive "snacks" in the form of two small bronze coins from Baden -- an 1807 Kreuzer (KM 141) and a 1766 1/2 Kreuzer (KM 113). Ironically enough, my very first coins from that German State.

7. Baldwins: Absolutely the least expensive George II AR crown (1746 Lima, DECIMO NONO edge) [S. 3689, ESC 125] that I've seen in the years I've been looking to replace the one I sold a decade ago.  It's even in reasonably decent condition, so I'm pleased.

Photos and writeups when I get to them, of course. 

PS: Perhaps what astonished me most is that both Perry Siegel, and Isadore Goldstein of Zuzim, appeared to recognize me and knew who I was (despite my name tag not really being visible), even though I haven't been in touch with either of them since last year's show. Some people have way better memories for names and faces than I do!

Edited by DonnaML
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5 hours ago, savitale said:

 

Took the Amtrak down from Boston at zero-dark-thirty, arriving at the relatively new and surprisingly modern/nice Moynihan Train Hall.
 

513C175A-813E-4623-B4CF-AF3C3D80E66C.jpeg.8f15086dc8da46216263ac1b065da8da.jpeg
 
Walked uptown through a cloudy, drizzly day to 47th street and entered the Intercontinental Hotel by 11:30am. Registration was not crowed but a bit slow to process. Paid $125 by credit card. Saw Frank Robinson checking in who I know only by name and good reputation. There is a Coat Check, FYI.
 
I had read previously that you need to get your purchases picked out within the first 15 minutes or all the good stuff would be gone. I was ready for a bit of a scrum. I checked out the gathering crowd where I observed a lot of white hair. I figured I could take most of those guys pretty easy. I noted the ones with canes as I suspected they could be used as weapons.
 
The photo shows the Early Birds lining up on the stairs to to bourse floor. I was 8th in line.
 
51B83D5D-302C-405A-8526-8915DF9313C5.jpeg.e8647d7f8955a8b6cf82e62dacfc8e1d.jpeg
 
Entry was not the mad dash that I was prepared for. It was uneventful. The need for rushing to table X may be less important these days. As reported in another thread, Leu and Nomos posted their fixed price list prior to the show, so you could have browsed and bought prior to the show opening if you really needed first shot. CNG did have their Winter Numismatic Review coins for sale prior to emailing it out tonight, so that was definitely worth seeing early, though coins were not flying off the table by any means. I will admit that I am not in any secret inner circles where fine coins are discussed in hushed voices, so perhaps I missed something. But as far as I could observe there was no great sucking sound of coins being vacuumed up immediately.
 
The bourse is divided into three areas: two ballrooms and a hallway/foyer/lobby connecting them. The layout was not good, but I don’t think as a collector it made much difference. 
 
38BBC874-E965-46A9-9624-44695F1A147C.jpeg.5cd84494eaa13ff1e6e2b1a94014e97b.jpeg
 
CB921BD3-212E-464B-9D55-5CD93A6EB745.jpeg.e200aefc56bb6c1d27fe551b432b5678.jpeg
 
2519EAB6-E37D-4791-BEC7-911C28C3BA03.jpeg.6577b87243d839fa105efc9e44e06372.jpeg
 
 
The show is not large by national standards.  If your interests are reasonably narrow you could browse all the relevant tables in a couple hours. About half the tables are World and half are Ancient, so for most of us that reduces the burden by about a factor of 2. There are also the grading companies and auction consignment tables most of us can skip. I made three laps around the bourse with time to spare. Of course if you are a chatty type you can spend unlimited time talking to dealers. But on that note I will mention that most tables were busy doing real business on Thursday, so intensive chit-chat may be better reserved for Friday or Saturday.
 
Tables were busy and deals were being done. The dealers I asked seemed happy with Day 1. I did not see much cash changing hands. I think in part that is due to two peculiarities of this show. If you are a collector and you buy something cash-and-carry at the show, you have to pay NYC sales tax which is not trivial. Second some (maybe all?) foreign dealers have their coins at the show on temporary export licenses. So if you “buy” a coin they will invoice you next week and they will ship it to you following proper export procedures. Now I can’t say every dealer abides by those rules 100% of the time but that was my experience. I did “buy” two coins this way but I obviously don’t have them to share.
 
Price-wise the material ran the gamut. Harlan J. Berk had a $15 “junk bin”, Educational Coin Company had piles of $20-100 coins, I saw a few six figure coins and of course everything in between. Many dealers had boxes behind their table with who-knows-what. I would not let price point be a filter regarding whether or not to attend.
 
I browsed every table but spent more time with Leu, CNG, Edward J. Waddell, Kunker, and a US dealer whose name I can’t recall but claims to be 88 years old. I also consigned two coins for sale with Great Collections. I hate trying to sell coins myself, just hate it.
 
I left the show at 5:30pm and walked down the neon (now LED) jungle that is 5th Avenue.
 
553C1927-882A-4113-A0B3-9BD5CF8DE32A.jpeg.41d3aaf61faedc872a464965d7db1f73.jpeg
 
The light show alone is practically worth the cost of NYINC admission. I had dinner at Jacob’s Pickles back at the Moynihan Train Hall. If I am ever faced with having to pick my last meal, it will be their honey fried chicken and biscuits.

4C3F00F2-FEEC-4298-AC5F-142C4B7ED981.jpeg.395b1ca67a55f780fae0c4a632cabdae.jpeg
 
I do suggest that ancient coin collectors should go to NYINC, either once as a bucket list item, or regularly if you’re local-ish. Happy to discuss with anyone if Thursday is the right choice for them.
 
 
 

 

Thanks for the info and photos! Luckily you didnt get attacked by the mob with their canes, sounds dangerous! 

I thought the show would be bigger, and the venue larger (larger rooms, higher ceilings). I dont know why i thought that. And maybe its the photos that make the venue appear smaller. Nevertheless, a coin show such as this one sure is on my bucket list. I just hope it will still be around in 20 years or so, when i finally have the opportunity to go! 

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10 hours ago, Limes said:

Thanks for the info and photos! Luckily you didnt get attacked by the mob with their canes, sounds dangerous! 

I thought the show would be bigger, and the venue larger (larger rooms, higher ceilings). I dont know why i thought that. And maybe its the photos that make the venue appear smaller. Nevertheless, a coin show such as this one sure is on my bucket list. I just hope it will still be around in 20 years or so, when i finally have the opportunity to go! 

If one combined the two ballrooms and the mezzanine gallery and various corridors, it would look a lot bigger! As it is, it's kind of a maze. Fortunately, I had printed out the map from the website (writing in the names of the dealers I wanted to visit), and kept it in my hand. I am not blessed with a great sense of direction!

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1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

If one combined the two ballrooms and the mezzanine gallery and various corridors, it would look a lot bigger! As it is, it's kind of a maze. Fortunately, I had printed out the map from the website (writing in the names of the dealers I wanted to visit), and kept it in my hand. I am not blessed with a great sense of direction!

When it comes to direction, we can shake hands! Luckily I'm tall, so I can use that to find my way in venues, shops, and so on. Looking again at the pictures, the carpet would make me dizzy, and I realized what the canes are for 😁

By the way, I didn't compliment you on your Rhodes drachm addition, but here its is. It's a beautiful coin, congratulations!

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15 hours ago, DonnaML said:

I have never heard of a dealer charging NYC sales tax on a cash sale. Not to me or anyone else. I bought six coins today (not counting the Nomos FPL coin I ordered and paid for online this morning); I paid cash for five and gave a personal check for the other one.

Good to know. Both dealers I worked with had consistent messaging about this. But I’m sure there is variation in how different dealers apply both sales tax and export rules. And it is possibly a function of coin price, method of payment, country of origin, etc.

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20 hours ago, savitale said:

 

Took the Amtrak down from Boston at zero-dark-thirty, arriving at the relatively new and surprisingly modern/nice Moynihan Train Hall.
 

513C175A-813E-4623-B4CF-AF3C3D80E66C.jpeg.8f15086dc8da46216263ac1b065da8da.jpeg
 
Walked uptown through a cloudy, drizzly day to 47th street and entered the Intercontinental Hotel by 11:30am. Registration was not crowed but a bit slow to process. Paid $125 by credit card. Saw Frank Robinson checking in who I know only by name and good reputation. There is a Coat Check, FYI.
 
I had read previously that you need to get your purchases picked out within the first 15 minutes or all the good stuff would be gone. I was ready for a bit of a scrum. I checked out the gathering crowd where I observed a lot of white hair. I figured I could take most of those guys pretty easy. I noted the ones with canes as I suspected they could be used as weapons.
 
The photo shows the Early Birds lining up on the stairs to to bourse floor. I was 8th in line.
 
51B83D5D-302C-405A-8526-8915DF9313C5.jpeg.e8647d7f8955a8b6cf82e62dacfc8e1d.jpeg
 
Entry was not the mad dash that I was prepared for. It was uneventful. The need for rushing to table X may be less important these days. As reported in another thread, Leu and Nomos posted their fixed price list prior to the show, so you could have browsed and bought prior to the show opening if you really needed first shot. CNG did have their Winter Numismatic Review coins for sale prior to emailing it out tonight, so that was definitely worth seeing early, though coins were not flying off the table by any means. I will admit that I am not in any secret inner circles where fine coins are discussed in hushed voices, so perhaps I missed something. But as far as I could observe there was no great sucking sound of coins being vacuumed up immediately.
 
The bourse is divided into three areas: two ballrooms and a hallway/foyer/lobby connecting them. The layout was not good, but I don’t think as a collector it made much difference. 
 
38BBC874-E965-46A9-9624-44695F1A147C.jpeg.5cd84494eaa13ff1e6e2b1a94014e97b.jpeg
 
CB921BD3-212E-464B-9D55-5CD93A6EB745.jpeg.e200aefc56bb6c1d27fe551b432b5678.jpeg
 
2519EAB6-E37D-4791-BEC7-911C28C3BA03.jpeg.6577b87243d839fa105efc9e44e06372.jpeg
 
 
The show is not large by national standards.  If your interests are reasonably narrow you could browse all the relevant tables in a couple hours. About half the tables are World and half are Ancient, so for most of us that reduces the burden by about a factor of 2. There are also the grading companies and auction consignment tables most of us can skip. I made three laps around the bourse with time to spare. Of course if you are a chatty type you can spend unlimited time talking to dealers. But on that note I will mention that most tables were busy doing real business on Thursday, so intensive chit-chat may be better reserved for Friday or Saturday.
 
Tables were busy and deals were being done. The dealers I asked seemed happy with Day 1. I did not see much cash changing hands. I think in part that is due to two peculiarities of this show. If you are a collector and you buy something cash-and-carry at the show, you have to pay NYC sales tax which is not trivial. Second some (maybe all?) foreign dealers have their coins at the show on temporary export licenses. So if you “buy” a coin they will invoice you next week and they will ship it to you following proper export procedures. Now I can’t say every dealer abides by those rules 100% of the time but that was my experience. I did “buy” two coins this way but I obviously don’t have them to share.
 
Price-wise the material ran the gamut. Harlan J. Berk had a $15 “junk bin”, Educational Coin Company had piles of $20-100 coins, I saw a few six figure coins and of course everything in between. Many dealers had boxes behind their table with who-knows-what. I would not let price point be a filter regarding whether or not to attend.
 
I browsed every table but spent more time with Leu, CNG, Edward J. Waddell, Kunker, and a US dealer whose name I can’t recall but claims to be 88 years old. I also consigned two coins for sale with Great Collections. I hate trying to sell coins myself, just hate it.
 
I left the show at 5:30pm and walked down the neon (now LED) jungle that is 5th Avenue.
 
553C1927-882A-4113-A0B3-9BD5CF8DE32A.jpeg.41d3aaf61faedc872a464965d7db1f73.jpeg
 
The light show alone is practically worth the cost of NYINC admission. I had dinner at Jacob’s Pickles back at the Moynihan Train Hall. If I am ever faced with having to pick my last meal, it will be their honey fried chicken and biscuits.

4C3F00F2-FEEC-4298-AC5F-142C4B7ED981.jpeg.395b1ca67a55f780fae0c4a632cabdae.jpeg
 
I do suggest that ancient coin collectors should go to NYINC, either once as a bucket list item, or regularly if you’re local-ish. Happy to discuss with anyone if Thursday is the right choice for them.
 
 
 

 

The 88 year old is Herb Kreindler, a legend in the ancient coin industry and the long-time auctioneer of the NYINC sales.

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21 hours ago, savitale said:

The light show alone is practically worth the cost of NYINC admission. I had dinner at Jacob’s Pickles back at the Moynihan Train Hall. If I am ever faced with having to pick my last meal, it will be their honey fried chicken and biscuits.

We arrived in town by train from Boston at lunchtime, and and almost didn’t make it to the show because Jacob’s Pickles was SOOOO amazing.  Thank you Savitale!

Taking a break now before the Stacks auction kicks off in less than a hour.  It’s my first big show and it’s pretty overwhelming (but in a great way). 

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5 hours ago, Limes said:

 By the way, I didn't compliment you on your Rhodes drachm addition, but here its is. It's a beautiful coin, congratulations!

Thank you! I'm very pleased with it. The person associated with Nomos (not an employee, but I don't know the nature of the arrangement) from whom I picked up the coin at the Nomos table yesterday happened to be Arnold-Peter Weiss, the orthopedic surgeon at Brown University in Providence who used to be a coin dealer on the side -- until some unfortunate events in his life, which one can Google -- and is an expert on this type of coin. In fact, he co-wrote "the" article on the subject, cited in the coin's description: Ashton, Richard & Arnold-Peter Weiss, "The Post-Plinthophoric Silver Drachms of Rhodes," Numismatic Chronicle 1997 pp. 1-39 & pls. 1-16. He told me that he's quite familiar with the specimen I bought and considers it one of the finest of the type. Although he didn't actually say so, it wouldn't surprise me if the "American collection" the coin is from (according to its description) was his. I gave him my email address, and he said he'd send me a copy of the article.

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2 hours ago, DonnaML said:

Thank you! I'm very pleased with it. The person associated with Nomos (not an employee, but I don't know the nature of the arrangement) from whom I picked up the coin at the Nomos table yesterday happened to be Arnold-Peter Weiss, the orthopedic surgeon at Brown University in Providence who used to be a coin dealer on the side -- until some unfortunate events in his life, which one can Google -- and is an expert on this type of coin. In fact, he co-wrote "the" article on the subject, cited in the coin's description: Ashton, Richard & Arnold-Peter Weiss, "The Post-Plinthophoric Silver Drachms of Rhodes," Numismatic Chronicle 1997 pp. 1-39 & pls. 1-16. He told me that he's quite familiar with the specimen I bought and considers it one of the finest of the type. Although he didn't actually say so, it wouldn't surprise me if the "American collection" the coin is from (according to its description) was his. I gave him my email address, and he said he'd send me a copy of the article.

I believe Dr. Weiss is a partner in Nomos, along with Victor England and Eric McFadden (former owners of CNG).

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18 minutes ago, DLTcoins said:

I believe Dr. Weiss is a partner in Nomos, along with Victor England and Eric McFadden (former owners of CNG).

Thanks. I didn't realize that, given that he's in the USA and Nomos is in Switzerland. But you seem to be correct, in that he's named on the Nomos "about us" page as having bought the firm after its original owner died in 2005. Although he's not among the staff members whose photos appear on the page. Alan S. Walker is named as among the additional partners, together with the two others you mention.

So I guess Dr. Weiss is still a coin dealer despite what happened a decade ago. I shouldn't have assumed differently. 

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48 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Thanks. I didn't realize that, given that he's in the USA and Nomos is in Switzerland. But you seem to be correct, in that he's named on the Nomos "about us" page as having bought the firm after its original owner died in 2005. Although he's not among the staff members whose photos appear on the page. Alan S. Walker is named as among the additional partners, together with the two others you mention.

So I guess Dr. Weiss is still a coin dealer despite what happened a decade ago. I shouldn't have assumed differently. 

Numismatics is like the indie rock scene. Sooner or later, everyone ends up in a band with everyone else. 😆

Edited by DLTcoins
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