Valentinian Posted November 23, 2022 · Member Share Posted November 23, 2022 The New York Times has an article about a hoard of gold Celtic coins stolen from the Celtic and Roman Museum in Manching, Bavaria, Germany. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/23/world/europe/germany-gold-coins-theft.html The gold value alone is said to be 250,000 euros. Of course, the numismatic value is far more, but not so easy to realize. 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restitutor Posted November 24, 2022 · Administrator Share Posted November 24, 2022 Wow! I know auction prices are through the roof right now so getting coins can be difficult, but this seems a bit extreme! 😱 Hopefully they aren’t melted down 🥺 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted November 25, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted November 25, 2022 Actually CBS news reported the value of the hoard to be estimated at $1.65 million. I agree, it would be a pity if the coins were melted for their bullion value. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/heist-1-65-million-celtic-treasure-german-museum-9-minutes/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 3, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 3, 2022 24 minutes ago, camll.m. said: The organized crime in Germany is run by Lebanese/Turkish family clans that burgled the German Museum in Berlin and the palace museum in Dresden. According to German press releases this crime on Manching is another outbreak of clan criminality since the alarm system of the museum was shut down by sabotaging the central electric distribution station of the entire city (!) that then suffered from a full black out. Germany is on the best way to slip into a third world environment at least in security terms! 🥲 Right. Native-born Germans would never engage in massive theft and other criminality! 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanxi Posted December 6, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted December 6, 2022 (edited) That may be partly correct, but his conclusion: "Germany is on the best way to slip into a third world environment at least in security terms!" shows IMHO from which political camp this person comes. The fact, for example, that the number of robberies in the last 10 years in Germany has fallen continuously to half (see Statista), is completely ignored. The post sounds to me like someone who wants to stir up hatred and fear. Edited December 6, 2022 by shanxi 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejas Posted December 6, 2022 · Member Share Posted December 6, 2022 Agreed, the overall security situation is not deteriorating, as far as I know. However, these robberies, which target historically significant objects like the Celtic gold hoard in museums are very frustrating [removed, off topic] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted December 6, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted December 6, 2022 (edited) @Tejas, as you probably realized, I was making a sarcastic historical rejoinder to a particular comment, with reference to the largest mass theft of personal property in the 20th century. I was not editorializing on the situation today. Edited December 6, 2022 by DonnaML 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLTcoins Posted July 20, 2023 · Member Share Posted July 20, 2023 The BBC reports that 4 were arrested yesterday (17 July) in Germany in connection with the Manching caper: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66247076 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted July 20, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted July 20, 2023 On an unrelated note, anyone looking to purchase some cool Celtic coins? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 20, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 20, 2023 1 hour ago, DLTcoins said: The BBC reports that 4 were arrested yesterday (17 July) in Germany in connection with the Manching caper: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66247076 No news yet on whether any of the coins were recovered? Obviously the probability is that they were all melted down. Unfortunately. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted July 20, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted July 20, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, DonnaML said: No news yet on whether any of the coins were recovered? Obviously the probability is that they were all melted down. Unfortunately. One of the suspects apparently carried 18 lumps of gold with him, which the investigators assume to be the remains of some seventy melted down Celtic gold coins. The metal composition of the lumps is currently tested in order to be certain, but the case unfortunately appears to be quite clear. The German authorities haven't found the rest of the hoard yet but they hope that at least parts of it still remain intact. More information (in German) here: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/manching-aus-oberbayerischem-museum-gestohlener-goldschatz-wohl-nicht-mehr-vollstaendig-erhalten-a-455bdf0a-cc4c-4443-93d5-c88f0a1a71dd. This isn't the first time in recent years that treasure from German museums is stolen. In 2017, members of the well-known Arab crime family Remmo broke into the numismatic section of the Bode Museum in Berlin and stole a 100-kilogram gold "Big Maple Leaf" worth more than four million USD. The coin was never recovered and probably melted down. Three of the perpetrators were caught and sentenced to four-and-a-half-year prison sentences in 2020. Provided that they behave okay in jail, prisoners in Germany are typically released on probation after half of their sentence, so the two men effectively got a bit more than two years for the museum heist. Full story here: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/berlin-coin-theft-1783515 . The way the German authorities handled this issue apparently encouraged rather than deterred the Remmo family. In 2019, members of this family, including two of the men who were already on trial for the Berlin heist, broke into the Green Vault museum in Dresden and stole large parts of the 18th century royal jewellery of Saxony. The items they took are worth about 113 million euro. Six men were eventually caught and charged with the theft, but they made a deal to hand over part (!) of what they had stolen in exchange for reduced sentences. Five of the perpetrators were given prison sentences of between four years and four months and six years and three months for grand larceny using weapons (they illegally carried semiautomatic guns during the heist), aggravated arson in combination with dangerous bodily injury (they had set fire to the museums power lines to create distraction and later also set fire to a parking garage to cover their tracks), and damage to property. Again, remember that these sentences effectively mean two to three years of jail time due to probable release on probation. Also, the Remmo family refused to give back some of the most valuable Saxon crown jewels, including the famous "Saxon White" diamond. Full story here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/16/five-men-found-guilty-over-113m-dresden-jewellery-heist . I am not a law-and-order hardliner, but as a German citizen, I find it troubling that our authorities treat the theft and destruction of cultural property from public museums with a lof of leniency. German law allows for much higher sentences than what the burglars got for the museum heists in Berlin and Dresden. It does not surprise me that other criminals apparently understood this as an invitation and paid a visit to the museum at Manching, and I would not be surprised if we heard more such sad news in the future. Edited July 20, 2023 by Ursus 3 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor DonnaML Posted July 20, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted July 20, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Ursus said: One of the suspects apparently carried 18 lumps of gold with him, which the investigators assume to be the remains of some seventy melted down Celtic gold coins. The metal composition of the lumps is currently tested in order to be certain, but the case unfortunately appears to be quite clear. The German authorities haven't found the rest of the hoard yet but they hope that at least parts of it still remain intact. More information (in German) here: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/manching-aus-oberbayerischem-museum-gestohlener-goldschatz-wohl-nicht-mehr-vollstaendig-erhalten-a-455bdf0a-cc4c-4443-93d5-c88f0a1a71dd. This isn't the first time in recent years that treasure from German museums is stolen. In 2017, members of the well-known Arab crime family Remmo broke into the numismatic section of the Bode Museum in Berlin and stole a 100-kilogram gold "Big Maple Leaf" worth more than four million USD. The coin was never recovered and probably melted down. Three of the perpetrators were caught and sentenced to four-and-a-half-year prison sentences in 2020. Provided that they behave okay in jail, prisoners in Germany are typically released on probation after half of their sentence, so the two men effectively got a bit more than two years for the museum heist. Full story here: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/berlin-coin-theft-1783515 . The way the German authorities handled this issue apparently encouraged rather than deterred the Remmo family. In 2019, members of this family, including two of the men who were already on trial for the Berlin heist, broke into the Green Vault museum in Dresden and stole large parts of the 18th century royal jewellery of Saxony. The items they took are worth about 113 million euro. Six men were eventually caught and charged with the theft, but they made a deal to hand over part (!) of what they had stolen in exchange for reduced sentences. Five of the perpetrators were given prison sentences of between four years and four months and six years and three months for grand larceny using weapons (they illegally carried semiautomatic guns during the heist), aggravated arson in combination with dangerous bodily injury (they had set fire to the museums power lines to create distraction and later also set fire to a parking garage to cover their tracks), and damage to property. Again, remember that these sentences effectively mean two to three years of jail time due to probable release on probation. Also, the Remmo family refused to give back some of the most valuable Saxon crown jewels, including the famous "Saxon White" diamond. Full story here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/16/five-men-found-guilty-over-113m-dresden-jewellery-heist . I am not a law-and-order hardliner, but as a German citizen, I find it troubling that our authorities treat the theft and destruction of cultural property from public museums with a lof of leniency. German law allows for much higher sentences than what the burglars got for the museum heists in Berlin and Dresden. It does not surprise me that other criminals apparently understood this as an invitation and paid a visit to the museum at Manching, and I would not be surprised if we heard more such sad news in the future. I am a German citizen as well -- even though I don't live there, and have dual citizenship with the USA -- and have to agree with you. Here are a couple of additional articles in English that I saw today: https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/gold-coins-theft-german-museum-suspects-arrested-1234674946/ https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-police-find-melted-gold-after-theft-celtic-101514606 Edited July 20, 2023 by DonnaML 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted July 21, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) Thanks for the additional links, @DonnaML! The Bavarian ministry of research and culture has issued a press release saying that they hope to find remaining 400 coins from the hoard still intact. I hope their hope is based on evidence they decided not to share in detail. Furthermore, they announced to invest more in museum securit. The press release (in German) can be found here: https://www.stmwk.bayern.de/pressemitteilung/12694/nr-78-vom-20-07-2023.html . Furthermore and especially mentionable in light of some earlier and rather ugly posts in this thread, German police has identified the suspects as four German citizens from Schwerin in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and described them as highly organized, professional criminals who likely also committed a number of other burglaries. Nothing indicates that they have a postmigrant background. The problem behind the series of museum heists in Germany is organized crime, not immigration. Edited July 21, 2023 by Ursus 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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