My Quest for Multiple Thalers

[ChrisB]

I made a mistake and posted this on "that other site" before it was actually in hand. I was excited for the purchase but then had to wait 107 days for the package to be delivered. I think that I have learned my lesson.

For the past several years a sizable portion of my collecting budget has been on Thaler sized coins, mostly from the German States but, from all over the world if they strike my fancy. Multiple thalers have been on my radar but rarely does one come up for sale at a price that Is attainable for me.

Soon after the discovery of the rich new silver veins in the ducal mines of the Harz Mountains, Julius (1528-1589, Duke and Prince of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel 1568-1589) devised a plan to create a permanent reserve fund for the defense of his duchy. He ordered each of his subjects who owned property to purchase one of his new multiple thalers. The denomination purchased depended on the wealth of the subject. Coins were struck in a range of denominations from 1-¼ to 16 thalers. Owners of these pieces were required to turn them in when requested by the duke in exchange for debased currency, thus creating an instant source of good silver coinage whenever needed. Julius’ successors in the Duchy of Brunswick continued to produce these coins.

The owners of these usually kept them because they were a sign of prestige and wealth. Yes, it wasn’t necessarily acquired by choice but in this case, size did matter. If you had a larger multiple thaler it was because you could afford to. It would have been difficult at best to use one in a normal daily transaction. Think about trying to pass a $500 bill at your local fast-food restaurant.

Thalers are about 40mm in diameter and 25-30 grams in weight. Multiples would normally be multiples of this weight range. So, a 2 thaler would be around 60 grams, 3 thaler around 90 grams, etc.

This Frankfurt coin I consider to be a wannabe multiple thaler. It is dated 1861 and has a face value of 2 thalers but only weighs 37.04 grams. Far short of the description above.

Likewise, the next coin is another Frankfurt 2 thalers, from 1847, but only weighs 37.1 grams.

 

Both of these coins are very attainable for most collectors.

The next coin was my first real multiple thaler purchase. This 1614 dated Teutonic Order 2 thaler coin is only slightly larger in diameter at 46mm but weighs an impressive 56.75 grams. It is a substantial piece to hold. This coin scratched the multiple thaler itch for a while, but I wanted one of the large diameter pieces that I have seen and read so much about. Most of these are 5-6 figure coins.

Teutonic Order. Maximilian of Austria. 1588-1618. AR double thaler.
Hall mint. 1614

Weight: 56.75 gm
Diameter: 46 mm.

Obverse: Master of the Order standing, holding the hilt of a grounded sword in his right hand, a lion holding a shield to left
Reverse: Maximilian on a horse moving right, a circle of shields of arms around him.

Davenport 5854. KM 30.

That brings us to a coin that I purchased in 2019 at a larger regional coin show. It’s described as a double show thaler from Hamburg. Minted ca.1635. The obverse has the annunciation of Christ. The reverse has John the Baptist baptizing Christ in the river Jordan. It is 59mm in diameter and weighs 56.5 grams. The dealer at the time let me make payments. This was important because it was the most I had ever spent on a coin.

Obverse: The Annunciation

Obverse Legend: AVE MARIA GRATI: PLENDOMIN. DOMIN:TECUMBENED: TUINT:MULIERES
Reverse: Christ standing facing in the river Jordan, head lowered right, being anointed by St.John the Baptist to right; above, radiate and nimbate dove below name of God in Hebrew.
Reverse Legend: CHRIST : D : HEILG : TAUFNIM : AN : V : SEIM : VORLAUFFER : I : IORD :,

 

Diameter: 59mm
Weight: 56.5gm

Note: Ref. G#1586. Prev. KM#F85.

At the time I figured that would be the best and largest multiple thaler that would ever reside in my collection.

The following year I was able to add another Hamburg double thaler. This one minted ca. 1650. I was able to purchase it from around half the price of the coin above due to an obvious cleaning. It is often described as a wedding thaler due to the couple on the obverse and the scene of the wedding at Cana on the reverse. It has similar dimensions to the coin above. 60mm in diameter and 57.42 grams. I did a writeup of this coin here if interested.

Some references describe this as being 3 thalers but I have it listed in my inventory as a double thaler due to the weight.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/doppelter-hochzeitstaler-–-double-wedding-thaler.362713/

Hamburg. AR Doppelter Hochzeitstaler

Obverse: Man and woman standing facing one another and clasping hands; above, radiant name of god and dove
Reverse: The Wedding at Cana. Cf.

Diameter: 60mm
Weight: 57.42 g

Gaedechens 1600; KM 147 (3 Thaler). Toned, lightly chased, minor edge bumps.
(sellers description)

Those 2 coins satisfied me for the past few years even though I would check the prices every time I saw a multiple thaler of any denomination for sale. There is a nice 4 thaler listed on eBay at the time of this writing with an asking price of $25,000. Compared to previous sales, it is not an unheard-of price.

And then it happened. I got an email showing new material from one of my favorite sellers. It showed the next coin. A 1664 dated Braunschweig-Lüneburg-Celle 4 thaler of Christian Ludwig. It is minted from the yield of the Harz mine. The weight is 115.5 grams, and it has a diameter of 81mm. Down by the date on the reverse you can see a 4 stamp. This is typically how the multiple thalers were marked. And the price….well, it wasn’t cheap but it was in range of stretching for it.

4 talers 1664 LW, Clausthal. Yield from the Harz mines.
Christian Ludwig, 1648-1665

Obverse: Hand of clouds wreaths a horse over a mining landscape with miners and two gullets, outline of the pit below
Reversed: Crowned monogram from CL, framed by two laurel branches, surrounded by fourteen coats of arms. With value stamp.
Weight: 111.5 g
Diameter: 72mm

Mint master: Lippold Wefer in Clausthal

Welter 1495, Davenport 187, Müseler Supplement 10.4.1/63 a, Duve 12 AI.
Grade: front slightly rubbed, VF-EF

I really like the detailed mining scene on the bottom of the obverse. The engraver, Lippold Wefer, was obviously a talented guy. He was the mintmaster in Clausthal from 1640-1674. Aside from that, little is known about him. Even Forrer only has a few vague sentences.

The Upper Harz was once one of the most important mining regions in Germany. The major products of its mines were silver, copper, lead, and iron, The main source of income, however, was silver. From the 16th to the middle of the 19th centuries about 40–50% of the entire German silver production originated in the Upper Harz. The taxes raised from this contributed significantly to the revenue of the royal houses in Hanover and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel and helped to secure their positions of power and influence within the empire.

In the Upper Harz, vein mining predominated. Excavation followed the vertically standing lodes or veins downwards. In their heyday the Upper Harz Mines were among the deepest in the world. For example, as early as 1700 shafts were already exceeding depths of 300 meters and by 1830, a depth of 600 meters was achieved. This was considered significant at that time because it was below sea level.

As far as multiple thalers go this is one of the most common varieties. Despite that, I am quite excited to add this coin to my collection. It seems like I have been working my way up to this for years. I can’t see myself adding anymore multiple thalers in the near future. This has pretty much killed my coin budget for the rest of the year. Of course, I will still be looking for them. I “need” a Wildman multiple thaler.


Sources:
Biographical Dictionary of Medallists, by Leonard Forrer
money.org
Wikipedia
ha.com

[DonnaML]

Beautiful! I've noticed that most listings, as well as the Davenport catalogue, spell the word "taler" rather than "thaler." Do I correctly assume that "taler" is simply the English spelling?

I will post my own few t(h)alers later, hopefully today.

[ChrisB]

2 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Beautiful! I've noticed that most listings, as well as the Davenport catalogue, spell the word "taler" rather than "thaler." Do I correctly assume that "taler" is simply the English spelling?

I will post my own few t(h)alers later, hopefully today.

I don't know that I have ever seen a definitive answer to that. I use both.

[shanxi]

8 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

spell the word "taler" rather than "thaler." Do I correctly assume that "taler" is simply the English spelling?

In Germany the spelling reform from 1901 removed nearly all "h" from words beginning with "Th", also Thaler became Taler. 

But Thaler is e.g. used by the english Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler

[Al Kowsky]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

I made a mistake and posted this on "that other site" before it was actually in hand. I was excited for the purchase but then had to wait 107 days for the package to be delivered. I think that I have learned my lesson.

For the past several years a sizable portion of my collecting budget has been on Thaler sized coins, mostly from the German States but, from all over the world if they strike my fancy. Multiple thalers have been on my radar but rarely does one come up for sale at a price that Is attainable for me.

Soon after the discovery of the rich new silver veins in the ducal mines of the Harz Mountains, Julius (1528-1589, Duke and Prince of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel 1568-1589) devised a plan to create a permanent reserve fund for the defense of his duchy. He ordered each of his subjects who owned property to purchase one of his new multiple thalers. The denomination purchased depended on the wealth of the subject. Coins were struck in a range of denominations from 1-¼ to 16 thalers. Owners of these pieces were required to turn them in when requested by the duke in exchange for debased currency, thus creating an instant source of good silver coinage whenever needed. Julius’ successors in the Duchy of Brunswick continued to produce these coins.

The owners of these usually kept them because they were a sign of prestige and wealth. Yes, it wasn’t necessarily acquired by choice but in this case, size did matter. If you had a larger multiple thaler it was because you could afford to. It would have been difficult at best to use one in a normal daily transaction. Think about trying to pass a $500 bill at your local fast-food restaurant.

Thalers are about 40mm in diameter and 25-30 grams in weight. Multiples would normally be multiples of this weight range. So, a 2 thaler would be around 60 grams, 3 thaler around 90 grams, etc.

This Frankfurt coin I consider to be a wannabe multiple thaler. It is dated 1861 and has a face value of 2 thalers but only weighs 37.04 grams. Far short of the description above.

Likewise, the next coin is another Frankfurt 2 thalers, from 1847, but only weighs 37.1 grams.

 

Both of these coins are very attainable for most collectors.

The next coin was my first real multiple thaler purchase. This 1614 dated Teutonic Order 2 thaler coin is only slightly larger in diameter at 46mm but weighs an impressive 56.75 grams. It is a substantial piece to hold. This coin scratched the multiple thaler itch for a while, but I wanted one of the large diameter pieces that I have seen and read so much about. Most of these are 5-6 figure coins.

Teutonic Order. Maximilian of Austria. 1588-1618. AR double thaler.
Hall mint. 1614

Weight: 56.75 gm
Diameter: 46 mm.

Obverse: Master of the Order standing, holding the hilt of a grounded sword in his right hand, a lion holding a shield to left
Reverse: Maximilian on a horse moving right, a circle of shields of arms around him.

Davenport 5854. KM 30.

That brings us to a coin that I purchased in 2019 at a larger regional coin show. It’s described as a double show thaler from Hamburg. Minted ca.1635. The obverse has the annunciation of Christ. The reverse has John the Baptist baptizing Christ in the river Jordan. It is 59mm in diameter and weighs 56.5 grams. The dealer at the time let me make payments. This was important because it was the most I had ever spent on a coin.

Obverse: The Annunciation

Obverse Legend: AVE MARIA GRATI: PLENDOMIN. DOMIN:TECUMBENED: TUINT:MULIERES
Reverse: Christ standing facing in the river Jordan, head lowered right, being anointed by St.John the Baptist to right; above, radiate and nimbate dove below name of God in Hebrew.
Reverse Legend: CHRIST : D : HEILG : TAUFNIM : AN : V : SEIM : VORLAUFFER : I : IORD :,

 

Diameter: 59mm
Weight: 56.5gm

Note: Ref. G#1586. Prev. KM#F85.

At the time I figured that would be the best and largest multiple thaler that would ever reside in my collection.

The following year I was able to add another Hamburg double thaler. This one minted ca. 1650. I was able to purchase it from around half the price of the coin above due to an obvious cleaning. It is often described as a wedding thaler due to the couple on the obverse and the scene of the wedding at Cana on the reverse. It has similar dimensions to the coin above. 60mm in diameter and 57.42 grams. I did a writeup of this coin here if interested.

Some references describe this as being 3 thalers but I have it listed in my inventory as a double thaler due to the weight.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/doppelter-hochzeitstaler-–-double-wedding-thaler.362713/

Hamburg. AR Doppelter Hochzeitstaler

Obverse: Man and woman standing facing one another and clasping hands; above, radiant name of god and dove
Reverse: The Wedding at Cana. Cf.

Diameter: 60mm
Weight: 57.42 g

Gaedechens 1600; KM 147 (3 Thaler). Toned, lightly chased, minor edge bumps.
(sellers description)
 

Those 2 coins satisfied me for the past few years even though I would check the prices every time I saw a multiple thaler of any denomination for sale. There is a nice 4 thaler listed on eBay at the time of this writing with an asking price of $25,000. Compared to previous sales, it is not an unheard-of price.

And then it happened. I got an email showing new material from one of my favorite sellers. It showed the next coin. A 1664 dated Braunschweig-Lüneburg-Celle 4 thaler of Christian Ludwig. It is minted from the yield of the Harz mine. The weight is 115.5 grams, and it has a diameter of 81mm. Down by the date on the reverse you can see a 4 stamp. This is typically how the multiple thalers were marked. And the price….well, it wasn’t cheap but it was in range of stretching for it.

4 talers 1664 LW, Clausthal. Yield from the Harz mines.
Christian Ludwig, 1648-1665

Obverse: Hand of clouds wreaths a horse over a mining landscape with miners and two gullets, outline of the pit below
Reversed: Crowned monogram from CL, framed by two laurel branches, surrounded by fourteen coats of arms. With value stamp.
Weight: 111.5 g
Diameter: 72mm

Mint master: Lippold Wefer in Clausthal

Welter 1495, Davenport 187, Müseler Supplement 10.4.1/63 a, Duve 12 AI.
Grade: front slightly rubbed, VF-EF

I really like the detailed mining scene on the bottom of the obverse. The engraver, Lippold Wefer, was obviously a talented guy. He was the mintmaster in Clausthal from 1640-1674. Aside from that, little is known about him. Even Forrer only has a few vague sentences.

The Upper Harz was once one of the most important mining regions in Germany. The major products of its mines were silver, copper, lead, and iron, The main source of income, however, was silver. From the 16th to the middle of the 19th centuries about 40–50% of the entire German silver production originated in the Upper Harz. The taxes raised from this contributed significantly to the revenue of the royal houses in Hanover and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel and helped to secure their positions of power and influence within the empire.

In the Upper Harz, vein mining predominated. Excavation followed the vertically standing lodes or veins downwards. In their heyday the Upper Harz Mines were among the deepest in the world. For example, as early as 1700 shafts were already exceeding depths of 300 meters and by 1830, a depth of 600 meters was achieved. This was considered significant at that time because it was below sea level.

As far as multiple thalers go this is one of the most common varieties. Despite that, I am quite excited to add this coin to my collection. It seems like I have been working my way up to this for years. I can’t see myself adding anymore multiple thalers in the near future. This has pretty much killed my coin budget for the rest of the year. Of course, I will still be looking for them. I “need” a Wildman multiple thaler.


Sources:
Biographical Dictionary of Medallists, by Leonard Forrer
money.org
Wikipedia
ha.com

Chris, your quadruple taler is breathtaking 😮, & would be the centerpiece in any collection ☺️.

[robinjojo]

Those are beautiful multiple thalers!  Congratulations.

The 4 thalers mining scene is especially nice and very rare.  Often these large coins were used as jewelry, as a necklace, so mounting holes at usually 12 o'clock on the obverse are quite common, with many having been subsequently repaired.  Your coin show really nice, undisturbed surfaces.

I once had a Brunswick 1 1/2 mining scene thaler that was actually repaired with wax as the filling material.  The color was very close to the color of the coin, but you certainly wouldn't want to put the coin near a source of heat!  The coin also had telltale contact marks on the reverse at the center of the monogram, another indication of jewelry use.

Now, I only have a much humble broad 2 thalers, which I have posted before, purchased from Karl Stephens many years ago.  I was told that it came from a Swiss auction, but I don't have any specific information.

This coin was cleaned, but it doesn't have any apparent mount repairs.

Brunswick-Lüneburg-Celle, 2 thalers, Christian Ludwig.

57.5 grams

 

While I'm at it, here are thalers that I haven't posted before, photographed today while listening to Brahms, of course.

This is another Karl Stephens purchase, back around February 1995.

Hamburg, Free Hanseatic City, thaler, 1621.

KM 123, Dav ECT 5365

28.90 grams

 

This is probably my favorite early, or early-ish thaler.

 Leuchtenberg Landgraviate, thaler, 1548.

MB 31, Dav ECT 9370,  Schult 1747

29.02 grams

 

The last coin is a 17th century restrike of the broad Anabaptist thaler minted in Munster in 1534.  Originally struck under the authority of the Anabaptist-led city council during their rebellion of 1534-35, this type was later restruck by Engelbert Ketteler, the Münster mintmaster, in the 1640's.

Here's the back story, courtesy of Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online.

https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Anabaptist_Coinage_and_Commemorative_Medals_(Münster,_Nordrhein-Westfalen,_Germany

"About 100 years after the fall of the Anabaptist rule of Münster and before or during the three years of negotiations leading up to the signing of the Peace of Westphalia Treaty that ended the Thirty Years War, the dies for the coins were again recovered. These dies were then used to reissue the coins because many of the delegates to the peace treaty wanted a souvenir of some kind to commemorative the city of Münster. In addition at least one die set was either reworked or a replica made to issue these coins as souvenirs. An example from this reworked die is illustrated below. One feature to identify some of the reissued coins is to find a symbol or letter, often the letter "k" between the three stars near the bottom of the one Thaler coin."

This coin was purchased from Credit de la Bourse Paris in the early 1990s.

Germany, Munster 'Anabaptist' thaler 1534 K, 17th century restrike.

KM-MB85, Dav-9583

29.01 grams

[John Conduitt]

This sort of post makes me sad, in that I have to focus my budget any cannot buy such amazing coins. 111g? That is crazy, but must be an impressive coin to hold. If I had twice as much money I would be buying these. The only 'daalder' I have is inexpensive but a great coin to own nonetheless.

Leeuwendaalder Type IIa from the time of Frederick Henry, Prince of Orange, 1643
Gelderland. Silver, 40mm, 26.61g. Knight with plume on helmet to the right behind coat of arms; MO· ARG· PRO: CON · - FOE · BELG · GEL ·. Lion rampant, above that date; CONFIDENS.DNO.NON.MOVETVR., CONFIDENS DNO NON MOVETUR (Those who trust in God are immovable) (Delmonte 825).

 

[ChrisB]

2 hours ago, robinjojo said:

Those are beautiful multiple thalers!  Congratulations.

The 4 thalers mining scene is especially nice and very rare.  Often these large coins were used as jewelry, as a necklace, so mounting holes at usually 12 o'clock on the obverse are quite common, with many having been subsequently repaired.  Your coin show really nice, undisturbed surfaces.

I once had a Brunswick 1 1/2 mining scene thaler that was actually repaired with wax as the filling material.  The color was very close to the color of the coin, but you certainly wouldn't want to put the coin near a source of heat!  The coin also had telltale contact marks on the reverse at the center of the monogram, another indication of jewelry use.

Now, I only have a much humble broad 2 thalers, which I have posted before, purchased from Karl Stephens many years ago.  I was told that it came from a Swiss auction, but I don't have any specific information.

This coin was cleaned, but it doesn't have any apparent mount repairs.

Brunswick-Lüneburg-Celle, 2 thalers, Christian Ludwig.

57.5 grams

 

While I'm at it, here are thalers that I haven't posted before, photographed today while listening to Brahms, of course.

This is another Karl Stephens purchase, back around February 1995.

Hamburg, Free Hanseatic City, thaler, 1621.

KM 123, Dav ECT 5365

28.90 grams

 

This is probably my favorite early, or early-ish thaler.

 Leuchtenberg Landgraviate, thaler, 1548.

MB 31, Dav ECT 9370,  Schult 1747

29.02 grams

 

The last coin is a 17th century restrike of the broad Anabaptist thaler minted in Munster in 1534.  Originally struck under the authority of the Anabaptist-led city council during their rebellion of 1534-35, this type was later restruck by Engelbert Ketteler, the Münster mintmaster, in the 1640's.

Here's the back story, courtesy of Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online.

https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Anabaptist_Coinage_and_Commemorative_Medals_(Münster,_Nordrhein-Westfalen,_Germany

"About 100 years after the fall of the Anabaptist rule of Münster and before or during the three years of negotiations leading up to the signing of the Peace of Westphalia Treaty that ended the Thirty Years War, the dies for the coins were again recovered. These dies were then used to reissue the coins because many of the delegates to the peace treaty wanted a souvenir of some kind to commemorative the city of Münster. In addition at least one die set was either reworked or a replica made to issue these coins as souvenirs. An example from this reworked die is illustrated below. One feature to identify some of the reissued coins is to find a symbol or letter, often the letter "k" between the three stars near the bottom of the one Thaler coin."

This coin was purchased from Credit de la Bourse Paris in the early 1990s.

Germany, Munster 'Anabaptist' thaler 1534 K, 17th century restrike.

KM-MB85, Dav-9583

29.01 grams

I believe that most of the multiple thalers have been cleaned, often repeatedly. Being as they were status symbols and not being held on to by numismatists, the owners would try to make them as nice "looking" as possible. 

[CPK]

@ChrisB, those coins are breathtaking! Congratulations!

111g...that's a quarter-pound. 😮

[robinjojo]

3 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

This sort of post makes me sad, in that I have to focus my budget any cannot buy such amazing coins. 111g? That is crazy, but must be an impressive coin to hold. If I had twice as much money I would be buying these. The only 'daalder' I have is inexpensive but a great coin to own nonetheless.

Leeuwendaalder Type IIa from the time of Frederick Henry, Prince of Orange, 1643
Gelderland. Silver, 40mm, 26.61g. Knight with plume on helmet to the right behind coat of arms; MO· ARG· PRO: CON · - FOE · BELG · GEL ·. Lion rampant, above that date; CONFIDENS.DNO.NON.MOVETVR., CONFIDENS DNO NON MOVETUR (Those who trust in God are immovable) (Delmonte 825).

 

That's a really choice coin - very attractive for this type!

[ChrisB]

A couple of weeks ago I attended the Derby City Coin Club show in Louisville, KY. I was able to add my first multiple in quite some time. German States coinage is becoming increasingly scarce as a whole. This is the first multiple thaler I have found at a reasonable price for quite some time. Sorry for the washed out phone picture. 

 

 

Eichstätt (Bishophric). Sede Vacante. 1790 2 Thaler

Obverse: Saints above vacant throne
Obverse Legend: CAPITULUM EYSTETTENSE - REGNANS SEDE VACANTE, below: 17.V EINE FEINE MARK.
Engraver: Johann Peter Werner

Reverse: Tree with 15 shields in branches, one shield below trunk, abbey and lands in background
Reverse Legend: EX UNO OMNIS NOSTRA SALUS, below: WILIBALDS-BURG. in band
Engraver: Johann Peter Werner

Subject: Sede Vacante Issue
Note: Convention 2 Thaler. Dav. #2212.

Composition: Silver
Weight: 56.03g
Diameter: 52.5mm

Mint: W Nuremberg, Germany

 

These are something that I don't really look for. When I do, the ones I find are usually priced well out of my budget. This one kind of fell into my lap. A dealer friend of mine knows that I like these and will let me know when he has one. We both win in that case. 

[Deinomenid]

13 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

German States coinage is becoming increasingly scarce as a whole.

Why do you think this is please? A different type of buy and hold purchaser? Broader audience?

[ChrisB]

My opinion only, but it feels like there are more collectors looking for German States coinage. It is similar to the rising demand and prices for ancients. If you like history and variety you can't go wrong with these. Like @panzerman has said before, even if you have the money of Elon Musk it would be impossible to build a "complete" set.