Looking for Brutus

[Topcat7]

I have been looking for a 'Brutus' coin for some time and each time I locate something the price 'kills' me.

This is my latest find. US$3400 (see photos)

Can anyone point me to somewhere where the (Brutus) coins are more affordable, (lesser quality?), please, or am I being unreasonable?

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Topcat7

[Limes]

hi, well, Brutus is very popular, and his coins fetch a high price. Some suggestions: if youre not an expert, dont go on Ebay. Coins there are either way overpriced, or fake. If you want to go for a Brutus coin, you could try an issue when Brutus was moneyer, before the murder of Caesar. Coins after the murder (Brutus as one of the tyrannicides) fetch a higher fee, but the exception may be his Libertas issue (54 BC), which for some reason sells for insane prices. 

Take a look on acsearch (simply search using 'Brutus') for available types. I'd go for an auction house. You can add search terms for your want list, on numisbids to help your search. It can also be done for biddr (think they are called 'searches'). I don't know your budget, but if youre in the 3.400 dollar range, it wont be difficult to find a coin.... 🙂

Here are my two coins, both after the murder. Both I got via auctions. 

 

[shanxi]

2 hours ago, Limes said:

If you want to go for a Brutus coin, you could try an issue when Brutus was moneyer, before the murder of Caesar.

This is affordable

M. Junius Brutus
AR Denarius, 42BC, Rome
Obv.: LIBERTAS, Head of Libertas right.
Rev.: BRVTVS, Consul L. Junius Brutus walking left between two lictors, carrying fasces over shoulder; accensus to left.
Ag, 19mm, 3.87g
Ref.: Crawford 433/1

[Prieure de Sion]

3 hours ago, Topcat7 said:

I have been looking for a 'Brutus' coin for some time and each time I locate something the price 'kills' me.

You don't have to be surprised. For one thing, the coins themselves are rarer than other coins. You get some coins offered a hundred times a week - some coins only 3-4 times a year. Supply and demand, like everywhere else, make the price.

And then you pay the name. Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Brutus, Marcus Antonius .... Who is a Gordianus? You also pay for the name.

And it's obvious - no offence intended - that you also want a Brutus 😉

There are coins of the Brutus type - they also have Brutus on them - which is still quite "cheap" - because it is simply more common. It has already been mentioned here. Crawford 433 - Liberias on the obverse, on the reverse probably Brutus with lictors and the inscription Brutus below.

https://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=2102344&AucID=5010&Lot=199&Val=a9139d2e389cef2f8e3f6a4cb9e2ae8e 

However, for very well preserved pieces with full lettering you currently pay around 1,000 euros. You won't find a (genuine) Brutus for much less. You will have to reckon with this amount of around 1,000 euros.

This Crawford 433 is so "cheap" because it dates from before the actual interesting historical events - from about 54 BC. The later specimens come, for example, from the war against Octavian and Marc Antony and directly from the civil war and are therefore - due to the name and the event - more expensive per se.

 

[Al Kowsky]

shanxi & P. de Sion pointed you in the right direction ☺️. Crawford 433/1 is much more affordable than the coin you posted. This coin type is very common but still expensive because coins with the name BRVTVS are popular & highly sought after. The coin P. de Sion posted sold for 1,440 Euros (including the buyers premium). I won the coin pictured below earlier this year & overpaid for it ($1,920). I had been on the hunt a long time for this coin type & didn't feel like waiting any longer 🤨.

[Prieure de Sion]

10 minutes ago, Al Kowsky said:

The coin P. de Sion posted sold for 1,440 Euros (including the buyers premium). I won the coin pictured below earlier this year & overpaid for it ($1,920). I had been on the hunt a long time for this coin type & didn't feel like waiting any longer 🤨.

I don't think you paid too much - maybe close to the limit. But not too much. If you want a certain quality.

My "round about" 1000 euros was also very optimistic. We all know that prices have been rising for months, especially for the special coins. If you are currently lucky - at an auction that is perhaps not so much in the spotlight - you can buy a specimen for 1000-1200 euros (plus buyer's premium).

But for Crawford 433 I have seen prices around 1500 euros for good pieces in the last few weeks. Or, depending on the condition and centring, considerably more!

[idesofmarch01]

This coin recently auctioned for 850 Euros -- probably less than $1,100 including buyer's fee and shipping:

If you want a Brutus conspirator coin, this is about as good a deal you'll find.  You just need to be diligent about upcoming auctions.

 

[Severus Alexander]

I agree with the advice to be persistent in browsing auctions.  Use the search functions on biddr, Numisbids, and Sixbid.  Throw in lowball bids and you never know!  I picked this one up for a 140 gbp hammer earlier this year:

(The reverse is upside down in the photo.)  This is a civil war issue after Caesar's assassination; they're scarcer and typically more expensive than the 50's BCE Libertas/consul & lictors and Ahala types.  Of course it would be nice to have one from both periods!  (The consul and Ahala types are also historically interesting since they seem to be promoting the boni agenda against Caesar.)

[akeady]

3 hours ago, idesofmarch01 said:

This coin recently auctioned for 850 Euros -- probably less than $1,100 including buyer's fee and shipping:

If you want a Brutus conspirator coin, this is about as good a deal you'll find.  You just need to be diligent about upcoming auctions.

 

I bought it - I was happy with it 😄

http://www.tantaluscoins.com/coins/135097.php

ATB,

Aidan.

[Jay GT4]

You could start with the "other" assassin named Brutus.  Junius Brutus Albinus.  His coins are quite affordable.  He was instrumental at getting Caesar to the Senate meeting that day.

 

 

[Ed Snible]

What about this? https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/the_ibarra_collection/304/product/brutus_fourree_denarius_42_bc_military_mint_traveling_with_brutus_and_cassius_in_southwestern_asian_minor/1713747/Default.aspx

[Severus Alexander]

My suggestion to keep on top of the auctions and place lowball bids isn't worth much without knowing what a lowball bid is... in my opinion an acsearch account is essential for this strategy. (I remember back when I just used CNG results and thought I knew what lowball was. Ha! 😆)  What you do is restrict your search by date and order the results by increasing hammer.  Here's what the first few entries look like going back to 2018. It's amazing that a 506/2 sold for the equivalent of 86 bucks in 2020, even if is severely worn!

Just track down to where you hit the level of quality you're looking for, and see what the lowest ones went for within the past few years. If you don't like Ed's suggestion and want to eliminate fourrées from the list, just add -(fourr* subaer* plated) to the search string.

If everyone followed this strategy prices would come down pretty fast! 🙃

[Qcumbor]

This type can be found for a bit less, if the purpose is to have BRVTVS written on it

Q

[Limes]

15 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

My suggestion to keep on top of the auctions and place lowball bids isn't worth much without knowing what a lowball bid is... in my opinion an acsearch account is essential for this strategy. (I remember back when I just used CNG results and thought I knew what lowball was. Ha! 😆)  What you do is restrict your search by date and order the results by increasing hammer.  Here's what the first few entries look like going back to 2018. It's amazing that a 506/2 sold for the equivalent of 86 bucks in 2020, even if is severely worn!

Just track down to where you hit the level of quality you're looking for, and see what the lowest ones went for within the past few years. If you don't like Ed's suggestion and want to eliminate fourrées from the list, just add -(fourr* subaer* plated) to the search string.

If everyone followed this strategy prices would come down pretty fast! 🙃

The first one in this list appears to be better quality than the one I bought in 2016 and later sold via AMCC. I got mine 'cheap' as well. Ergo: it pays off to look around, there are possibilities out there, not per se slugs like mine, but somewhat better types can go for okay prices. 

 

[Severus Alexander]

1 hour ago, Limes said:

The first one in this list appears to be better quality than the one I bought in 2016 and later sold via AMCC. I got mine 'cheap' as well.

That first one on the list is a fourrée. Otherwise it would have been a truly stupendous deal!

[dougsmit]

23 hours ago, Severus Alexander said:

(The consul and Ahala types are also historically interesting since they seem to be promoting the boni agenda against Caesar.)

There was a time when you could get fourrees a lot cheaper than the solids but I have seen some sell lately that suggests some buyers don't know or don't care.  There was a story going around 30 years ago that one of the big London dealers had three fourree EID MAR denarii in a junk drawer but would not sell them.  Coins of this period are found in fourree much more commonly that those from more stabile periods.  Beware.  

[Limes]

36 minutes ago, Severus Alexander said:

That first one on the list is a fourrée. Otherwise it would have been a truly stupendous deal!

That makes sense! 

[Topcat7]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:21 PM, Limes said:

hi, well, Brutus is very popular, and his coins fetch a high price. Some suggestions: if youre not an expert, dont go on Ebay. Coins there are either way overpriced, or fake. If you want to go for a Brutus coin, you could try an issue when Brutus was moneyer, before the murder of Caesar. Coins after the murder (Brutus as one of the tyrannicides) fetch a higher fee, but the exception may be his Libertas issue (54 BC), which for some reason sells for insane prices. 

Take a look on acsearch (simply search using 'Brutus') for available types. I'd go for an auction house. You can add search terms for your want list, on numisbids to help your search. It can also be done for biddr (think they are called 'searches'). I don't know your budget, but if youre in the 3.400 dollar range, it wont be difficult to find a coin.... 🙂

Here are my two coins, both after the murder. Both I got via auctions. 

 

Nice coins, and thank you.

[Jay GT4]

Just listed

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/incitatus_coins/79/product/marcus_junius_brutus_ar_silver_denarius_bust_of_libertas_consul_brutus_walking_with_lictors/1769027/Default.aspx

[CPK]

1 hour ago, Jay GT4 said:

Just listed

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/incitatus_coins/79/product/marcus_junius_brutus_ar_silver_denarius_bust_of_libertas_consul_brutus_walking_with_lictors/1769027/Default.aspx

I had PM'd him the link earlier in the hopes he could snag it if he wanted without making it too public. But, it's sold now. Not surprised, it was a good deal!

Edited November 15, 2022 by CPK

[Topcat7]

@CPKI did miss it. Where do I find my PM's, please?

Edited November 15, 2022 by Topcat7

[Topcat7]

2 hours ago, CPK said:

I had PM'd him the link earlier in the hopes he could snag it if he wanted without making it too public. But, it's sold now. Not surprised, it was a good deal!

@CPKJust found it. Sorry. Wasn't looking for a PM, and I didn't know where to look (do now) for one.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Topcat7

[CPK]

7 minutes ago, Topcat7 said:

@CPKJust found it. Sorry. Wasn't looking for a PM, and I didn't know where to look (do now) for one.

Sorry! That coin didn't last long. I hope you are successful in your continued hunt!

[Finn235]

They are out there. I've been hunting for one since I got serious about collecting Roman coins - finally snagged this one early in summer from Roma for I think $200ish - not great eye appeal, but the legend is all there and it has the full BRVTVS which was the most important part.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Finn235

[ambr0zie]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:51 AM, Severus Alexander said:

My suggestion to keep on top of the auctions and place lowball bids isn't worth much without knowing what a lowball bid is... in my opinion an acsearch account is essential for this strategy. (I remember back when I just used CNG results and thought I knew what lowball was. Ha! 😆)  What you do is restrict your search by date and order the results by increasing hammer.  Here's what the first few entries look like going back to 2018. It's amazing that a 506/2 sold for the equivalent of 86 bucks in 2020, even if is severely worn!

Just track down to where you hit the level of quality you're looking for, and see what the lowest ones went for within the past few years. If you don't like Ed's suggestion and want to eliminate fourrées from the list, just add -(fourr* subaer* plated) to the search string.

If everyone followed this strategy prices would come down pretty fast! 🙃

The second one in the list is mine. I was also surprised about the hammer price.
The coin is silver, not a fourree, it just has a black toning. What still confuses me about it is the low weight (2.74 g) and the fact that it is quite thin. Don't think it's a modern forgery though.