Please, make it about the coins and not the subject matter.

[Topcat7]

If Restitutor will permit me -

This is a 'Forum'; where views are aired. Here is one of mine.

OK. We've had women's breasts. We've had women's backsides. We've had men's appendages. All with a lascivious reference.

Now can we make it about the coins (rather than the subject material)?

(Note: If those subject matters are germaine to the topic, I have no problem with them, but I do have a problem when the topic becomes 'smutty'.)

Support anywhere?

Edited September 5, 2022 by Topcat7

[DonnaML]

7 minutes ago, Topcat7 said:

If Restitutor will permit me -

This is a 'Forum'; where views are aired. Here is one of mine.

OK. We've had women's breasts. We've had women's backsides. We've had men's appendages. All with a lascivious reference.

Now can we make it about the coins (rather than the subject material)?

(Note: If those subject matters are germaine to the topic, I have no problem with them, but I do have a problem when the topic becomes 'smutty'.)

Support anywhere?

It's pretty obvious when a thread is going to be like that, and I simply choose not to read through those threads. They make me uncomfortable, because reasons. I'm generally pretty "cool," but not that cool! Perhaps an "X" rating should be included in the thread title to warn anyone who might not otherwise realize what they're getting into?

Edited September 5, 2022 by DonnaML

[Roman Collector]

19 minutes ago, Topcat7 said:

If Restitutor will permit me -

This is a 'Forum'; where views are aired. Here is one of mine.

OK. We've had women's breasts. We've had women's backsides. We've had men's appendages. All with a lascivious reference.

Now can we make it about the coins (rather than the subject material)?

(Note: If those subject matters are germaine to the topic, I have no problem with them, but I do have a problem when the topic becomes 'smutty'.)

Support anywhere?

I'm not sure it's possible to separate a coin from its iconography. Priapus was an ancient Roman god who was depicted with his attributes on coins and in ancient art. The Romans were apparently not bothered by this. 

[kirispupis]

Personally, I don't mind them since they're still mostly about coins. I find most of them funny and interesting, but I can understand others not viewing them so. 

This is a very friendly place, so I'd prefer not to put these types of restrictions on people. I'd just respectfully ask those who don't like them to skip those threads.

[Ryro]

Very strange request. I felt that I more than scratched the surface of what the content was going to be in the title. But then to ask folks not to celebrate their coins subject matter?

(I'm so sorry. I really do love your coins, personality etc. @Topcat7 but why not just bravemessage me? Build negative momentum and scure old Ry guy?)

And then we'd like people to stop posting their area of specialty coins if it doesn't fit certain pretensions?

Nothing sexual to the point that some are uncomfortable, is what I'm hearing.

If my content is not enjoyable then I really do apologize. I try to make enjoyable content about things that I am passionate about. But if somebody fundamentally disagrees with me about something, then please just read something else or someone else that makes you happy. 

Nobody private messaged me to take it down or even mentioned, despite the subject matter, that it was in bad taste. And I'd shared the coins with a couple of friends before having a good time sharing and writing about my new coins, who all thought they were dope.

I really thought this would be embraced as a cool, fun thread celebrating the silliness that we and the ancients share (eyes are closed if they don't see the intentional humor and comedy in these symbols from our ancestors easiest form of communication). Can we not look back at these and try to connect with the content in the way it was intended?

Let me add a coin to a thread on a coin site devoid of coin:

Ps, I thought this at least in small (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) part was why we left the old place. No? 

[Orange Julius]

I think @Topcat7 is a cool dude with nice coins. I also think @Ryro is a cool dude with cool coins.

There's a spectrum of us here on the board. All of us with different interests, wallet sizes, and styles of humor (mine is usually inappropriate but I'm working at reeling it in). Read what interests you or makes you smile, skip what doesn't. I'd like this board to be clean enough that younger coin enthusiasts can dig in without running into trouble, but open enough that if the Ancients wanted to show off some butts, breasts, and wangs.... that we can all let it fly and post those 2000 year old butts with some (on-topic) jokes.

Love you all. This is the only penis looking coin I have.... 

[NathanB]

"Please, make it about the coins and not the subject matter."

Anytime we are dealing with coinage, it's always about the subject matter.  That's as true when looking at a modern coin with, for instance, a king's bust and "Dei Gratia Rex" stamped on it as it is when looking at an ancient Roman coin showing Venus' buttocks.

The OP says that we have had women's backsides, breasts, and men's penises as subjects for threads here, but the fact is, we have had every conceivable collecting motif as well.  Show your Seleucid coins! Show your most expensive coins! Show your ugliest coins!  In addition to those, we've also seen coins with religious iconography, coins with elephants, coins with royal couples, coins with Vesta, coins with Germanicus, coins celebrating military conquests, coins with trophies, coins with architecture, and so on--and I'm just scratching the surface here.  And in each thread, people post coins that fit the intention of the thread.

I don't see why coins featuring or celebrating the human body should be any different.  If one wants to understand history, one has to deal with everything one finds, not just that which one approves of or feels comfortable with.  That said, the thread titles are descriptive enough that if someone is upset by nude bodies on coins, they can stay away.  It's the same with going to a museum.  If a nude Aphrodite or David or Apollo threatens you, just don't go there.

Edited September 5, 2022 by NathanB

[John Conduitt]

I can see both points of view. It's not an easy path to tread. It's good to explore all aspects of history and culture, including the salacious side. It's also quite possible to inadvertently make people feel uncomfortable who we'd like to feel comfortable, and not because they're prudish.

I don't think it's the subject matter. I thought the Priapus post was educational. I learned a lot. On the other hand, perhaps the innuendo wasn't necessary - it's not as if the Romans left anything to the imagination in the first place 🤣

Posts about breasts and backsides aren't inherently offensive, but they have the potential to sail a bit close to the Playboy end of educational. Not just the original post either, but the comments. It's one thing to discuss the depiction of sensual parts of the body in Roman art, and another to comment on how fit Faustina was. (Not that the posters did that, but you know what I mean, I'm exaggerating to make the point). I can see how a woman reading a lot of comments like the latter would think, well, maybe that's how they're judging me, I don't really want to be here. The same could be true of a lot of people and a lot of subjects (based on gender, age, race, nationality etc), so it isn't easy.

Edited September 5, 2022 by John Conduitt

[NewStyleKing]

The subject matter  maybe is what the coin is about!  The propaganda value.  In the NEWSTYLE seemingly at a certain point egregious political messages were written into the symbols of the coins.  Now that generally is a deliberate divisive thing .

If Roma  is Roma then the next obverse die linked coin is Roma being crowned by Nike.  Why is the speculation  that must must be  otherwise the study of coins is sterile.We may envisage a Rome versus Pontic political battle, A victory in the Romalia games  nevermind the possible undercurrents of that!, a victory by Romans at home in the social wars, hence signalling stability for some, or victory over pressing problems.....over Celtic tribes invading Macedonia and all the possible ramifications flowing from that! So is the rape of the Sabine women on coins not that but 101 swimming lessons....my joke (ignored) was there...valid as far as it goes, an alternate explanation....but very unlikely that it can be (and was) ignored.  You cannot ignore the symbolism, things happen not in a vacuum!  Why is the biggy!  We have to tease out the most likely answer,

NSK=John

[ambr0zie]

I personally disagree.

Yep, I would find it inappropriate if we see a topic stating "HAHAHAHAAA I FOUND A COIN WITH A <insert body part here> HAHAHHA LOL OMG".

Seeing write-ups that bring numismatic information is a different story and one of the reason I stay on this forum. And I am sure many others share this.

But when somebody buys or notices a coin depicting Priapus (and not   just the portrait of Priapus) I think that there is a probability of 99,99% it would be for a certain reason, not because the person wants a coin from Nicopolis ad Istrum.

The infamous coins with Julia Domna/Titus/Julia Titi (and others) with the Venus reverse are bought also for a reason. Initially. But a serious collector would read and find out about mints, stylistic differences, symbolistics et caetera.

I know a member I respect and admire does not like at all the Titurius denarius with the Sabine women. I like it. I posted it. And I will in the future. Why? because I like the coin, I like mythological background on coins and I find it special and unique in iconography. But I am totally against the concept of rape, abduction and any related actions. I didn't buy it because of the action depicted, which is a myth, but because of the historical/mythological/numismatic importance.

 

Common sense is something and I am big fan of it. Everybody has the right to be bothered by certain aspects, images, concepts and I respect that. Pornography or extreme violence are not suitable for this board (btw, what do we do with coins depicting snuff scenes? There are a few).

I think what was mentioned earlier - when a person sees a subject that he/she is inconfortable with, the best action is to ignore the topic. I ignore lots of topics - the main reason being that I am not interested in the subject.

Again, if the forum becomes full of innuendos or obscene material, this is not good, but I haven't seen this, or perhaps my standards are different.

Fact. Some years ago there was an international football match hosted in a city in Croatia, somewhere on the Adriatic Sea coast.
The name of the city is normal for anyone in this world except people from my country. In my language, the name is 100% identical to the reproductive male organ, in the most vulgar form. Therefore the press (TV and newspapers) were in trouble. Some chose to make silly jokes, repeatedly (very funny but where you're older than 10 they get boring and childish). Others changed a letter in the name just... because. Other decided to mention the name of the city normally, without repeating it, blushing or whatever, just like you would do for a normal city like Helsinki or London or Los Angeles.

Edited September 5, 2022 by ambr0zie

[John Conduitt]

I think Ryro's request to be informed by PM seems like a good way to deal with it. He could then edit as appropriate, or not.

I have a 1938 5 Reichsmark. On the obverse, it features an eagle and swastika. Paul von Hindenburg (who appointed Hitler as Chancellor) is on the reverse. Under what circumstances could I post that coin? Would I understand if someone was offended? Would that stop me posting it? Would I rather someone told me what offended them or just ignored it? Why do I even have such a coin? My grandfather-in-law brought it back from Germany as a souvenir, having just spent 3 years fighting the Nazis. Is that offensive? Is that enough historical context to post it? What if he'd fought for the Germans? I don't even know the answers. Feedback on a post can be challenging, but helpful.

Edited September 5, 2022 by John Conduitt

[NewStyleKing]

But who knows what was in the mind of the satyrs carry off nymphs types ( and the person(s) who thought of it)?  Was it a come on and copy, nudge nudge wink wink  or what.  Oh what a web we spin!

 

NSK=John

[CPK]

I understand and (I think) agree with @Topcat7's point. 

I am certainly not opposed to discussing coins with - shall we say, naughty? - subject matter, but there seems to be a certain tendency on at least one member's part to go a bit overboard in this direction. To the point that one cannot help wondering if the main interest is in the coins, or else the opportunity to bring in dirty jokes and sexualized content. 

Someone else once brought up the point that he doesn't want his children seeing such content on a website he frequents, and I think he had a point too.

That said, my policy when I see a thread like that is, just move on to something else.

 

[kirispupis]

Looking at the specified post a bit more, every photo is either of an ancient sculpture, painting/mosaic, or coin. From a historical context, I found those ancient depictions interesting.

I would grant that the text can be on the lewd side, but IMHO there was nothing wrong with the photos.

Taken from another angle, I'm a member of several wildlife forums as a photographer. You may be aware that animals eat each other, and I have many photos of that act. I've had a fair amount of rage directed my way for posting some gory photos, but as far as I'm concerned it's a fact of nature and those squeamish need to either keep scrolling or get over it.

Two thousand years ago, people had vastly different views on sexuality and the body. As a student of ancient history, I find those perspectives crucial to attempting to understand those times. Taken in a modern context, these images can be offensive, but they weren't meant to be so in their original context.

[Magnus Maximus]

@Topcat7My opinion is this site needs more than one moderator at any given time, and needs to have a more comprehensive set of specific rules. 

[Restitutor]

Hi everyone - I don’t want to weigh in yet as I do find this discussion healthy, and want to continue to hear more thoughts on this subject. Please know I have put a lot of thought and continue to put thought into how to address this, but don’t want to bias any further discussions. For now I have made a slight alteration to the specific referenced post. 

[Curtis JJ]

I don’t personally have any problem with the coins or topics posted (I don’t necessarily agree with everyone’s sense of humor). But when people say something is making them feel uncomfortable, it’s important to try to understand and consider low-cost solutions. The “NSFW” title solution is a good one.

The only thing I’ve ever been bothered by here: Insults and mocking others.

At least in this (and several prior), I see no reason to mock, insult, and try to escalate conflict with anyone who has already said they are uncomfortable. The last thing one should try to do is treat people like outsiders and try to further alienate them.

Even if nothing about the Priapus post was originally hostile, that’s no longer true: Calling people “a couple of prudes,” or, over here, posting a phallic coin simply because it might make someone uncomfortable, and various bits of mockery/innuendo by others:

5 hours ago, Ryro said:

Still in disbelief that two or three prudes from the site are bothered by this

I find the backlash rather sickening.

There was nothing in the original post here that had to be interpreted as a challenge to any single individual, much less requiring escalation, insult, mockery, and more-or-less open hostility. 

It wasn’t clearly aimed exclusively or even primarily at a single individual -- it could’ve easily been the follow-up comments that were offensive. And was written in such a way as to address future standards. No reason any of it had to interpreted as hostile/a personal challenge.

And there’s no reason why they should’ve sent a private message instead. A direct message would’ve failed to address it as a “community” issue, which is what it is, rather than as a personal issue, which is how it’s being taken. (And how were they to know that a direct message wouldn't have been interpreted as an even more serious direct challenge?)

I posted my Priapus coins, and I’m interested in that topic, but I want nothing to do with any atmosphere of hostility over the fact that someone’s standards are different, and they didn’t voice it in a delicate enough way to avoid being interpreted as a personal challenge.

[NathanB]

In a way, we're all just victims...of the Puritans (and before them, of others going all the way back to the patriarchal societies of the ancient Near East).  Consequently, some people are nervous around nudity or bodily functions, while others are deeply scarred by our culture's previous history of enforcing very narrow and very discriminatory sexual norms.  A coin with a Priapus erection or a pair of Venus' beautiful buttocks may make the first group nervous, while providing the second group with joy and validation.  Overall, I think the bottom line is: if you don't like it, don't read it and look at it.  And if someone says they are uncomfortable, don't attack them.  

--

Update: YIKES! I just read @IanG's post below including a quote that I had somehow missed--probably because I never read the original in the first place--I just skipped over it.  Yes, that particular line definitely crossed a line.  

Edited September 5, 2022 by NathanB

[CPK]

I can't speak for everyone, but I would suspect that the reason most people are objecting to those sorts of threads has less to do with being "uncomfortable" and "nervous" than it has to wanting to preserve a certain dignity and decency. There is nothing prudish about that. I have not known lewdness or profanity to ever raise the level of a conversation. 

Humor has its place certainly, and I recognize that everyone's sense of humor is different. Still, any type of humor can be taken too far, and seeing that we've had a few threads now complaining about a certain member's overindulgence, perhaps that line has been crossed.

[IanG]

I wasn't going to contribute to this debate because I am a relative newcomer to this site but Restitutor has asked for more thoughts on the subject, so here are mine.

This site was born out of schism. I did not participate in the events at CT but I watched them from afar and it was horrible. I am not suggesting that a disagreement about appropriate boundaries for humour even comes close to the sensitivity of the issues that were discussed there, but it is very important that we do not let situations develop where members split into camps about what is or is not acceptable. If that happens then today's discomfort can lead to tomorrow's irritation which leads to the next day's anger and then there is bad blood. Which I know no-one wants because this is a fantastic forum from which we all derive great pleasure. So I agree with Restitutor that we need a healthy debate on this.

In my opinion there is a big difference between a subject matter and the way in which that is addressed. There is nothing wrong with a thread on Priapus. There is nothing wrong in that context with references to or depictions of large erections. I would also say that it is perfectly reasonable to indulge in a degree of ribald and robust humour about that; erections have been a subject for jokes since time immemorial, just think about Aristophanes' Lysistrata. On a forum which is principally about numismatics, however, it is not in my opinion unreasonable to call for limits to the ribaldry. I thought there was much about Ryro's post that was funny - and I do enjoy his posts generally for their interest and their irreverent humour - but I also thought that on this occasion some sections were unnecessary. Was there any real need to say "Priapus's worshipers sacrificed an "ass", that poor gal probably didn't sit down for a week, to ensure he would come fertilize their fields and animals"? 

I would say that we should all read other members' posts with tolerance; but we should also be careful when posting not to stretch that tolerance too far.

[Ryro]

36 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said:

Even if nothing about the Priapus post was originally hostile, that’s no longer true: Calling people “a couple of prudes,” or, over here, posting a phallic coin simply because it might make someone uncomfortable, and various bits of mockery/innuendo by others

I didn't post any coins with phallus in this thread, unless your imagination is getting away with you. And Calling a prude a prude is hardly hostile.

 

1 minute ago, CPK said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I would suspect that the reason most people are objecting...

That's an out and out lie. Look at the amount of likes as an indicator and it's very obvious. You and a couple of LRB lovers are making a mountain out of s mole hill. 

And you all can stop talking about me in the third person. It's a pathetic way of distancing yourself from your words. 

Rather than addressing the issue with me there is all of the sudden a thread. The thread had a bunch of folks supporting me and now a few stick in the muds stay stuck in the mud. 

[NathanB]

Hi @CPK, those are some fair points.  Having said that, I'm not sure that a coin with a massive Priapus erection or a lovely pair of Venus' buttocks should be treated with dry, unhumourous language.  Jokes, even bawdy ones, are pretty fair game for that sort of thing, and it seems to me that they match the spirit of the original artworks. 

On the other hand, I do think attacking people when one is startled by their views is a real problem, and having been on the receiving end of such attacks, I know how that feels.  But I also feel empathy for the poster in question, because I think they have suffered enormously to get where they are now, and I do think they are able to grow and change.

As for the overall issue, I guess part of it all comes down to what one values most: dignity and decorum, or the freedom to be a bit ribald in situations where there isn't a power difference or a captive audience.  I tend to think that as long as all of us treat each other with respect and a little give-and-take--and tolerance--we'll probably be ok.

--

And one more thing, though here I am thinking of @Ryro: we need to respect the way others collect and what they collect.  One person collects LRB's.  Another collects Seleucids.  Yet another collects Byzantines, while still others collect 12 Caesars--and so on.  What one collects shouldn't be held against them.  In most instances, the primary point of a collection is for the personal interest of the collector, so there is no "right" or "best" way to achieve that that would apply to all collectors everywhere.

Edited September 5, 2022 by NathanB

[CPK]

@IanG and @NathanB You both bring up good points with which I broadly agree.

For the record, while I do enjoy my handful of LRB coins, my primary interest is in coins of the early-mid Empire. 🙂

[Curtis JJ]

45 minutes ago, Ryro said:

I didn't post any coins with phallus in this thread, unless your imagination is getting away with you. And Calling a prude a prude is hardly hostile.

I'm aware you're not the one who posted such a coin in this thread and wasn't saying you were. This goes to my general point about taking things personally and assuming you're being addressed specifically even when you aren't and responding defensively without stopping to consider whether there might an alternative to your initial interpretation.

Calling someone a "prude" is an insult. It's disingenuous to say it's not offensive. I'll admit it's not as offensive as when you went off on someone else you thought deserved it (whatever that was about kosmas' mother and wife, I don't remember all the details), but it's not the first time someone has pointed out your quickness to start insulting people and that it seems bizarre, offensive and/or out of place in a coin forum.

As I've said before, I have no desire to join these conflicts myself and only do so when someone is insulting others who they think are unable or unwilling to defend themselves because they have "a bunch of folks supporting me" and "likes."

[Ryro]

51 minutes ago, Curtis JJ said:

I'm aware you're not the one who posted such a coin in this thread and wasn't saying you were. This goes to my general point about taking things personally and assuming you're being addressed specifically even when you aren't and responding defensively without stopping to consider whether there might an alternative to your initial interpretation.

Calling someone a "prude" is an insult. It's disingenuous to say it's not offensive. I'll admit it's not as offensive as when you went off on someone else you thought deserved it (whatever that was about kosmas' mother and wife, I don't remember all the details), but it's not the first time someone has pointed out your quickness to start insulting people and that it seems bizarre, offensive and/or out of place in a coin forum.

As I've said before, I have no desire to join these conflicts myself and only do so when someone is insulting others who they think are unable or unwilling to defend themselves because they have "a bunch of folks supporting me" and "likes."

My apologies then @Curtis JJ and @NathanB I've always enjoyed both your coins and personality.

I certainly did feel singled out, and though there wasn't an alternative reason, and it was directed at me, this is no place for insults, even something as bland as, prude. Sorry team. If it seems I've bats in the belfry, I'd not disagree. And I'd hate to think I've chased folks away from our forum and decreased their enjoyment of their hobby. Though, I genuinely feel more folks appear to enjoy a looser more fun atmosphere than those that prefer a more stuffy FORVM esque platform. 

Again, my sincere apologies to @NathanB and thanks for your understanding and positive comments.