seth77

It's probably safe to say some of the coins in that pile are Bohemond IV, some first reign, some second reign and maybe even some Bohemond V. Some Bohemond III have the scarcer knight head right from early in the majority of Bohemond III, some could even be from the minority of the prince while Raynald de Chatillon was prince-regent. A similar situation is with the deniers tournois of the 3 main mints of Frankish Greece, also very accessible and offered in large quantities at any given time. They are not all the same thing and I am certain that some collectors go after them searching for particularities that would indicate known issues of particular interest or new hypotheses regarding chronology and historical connections. Actually the sheer number of available coins begs the research for minute details such as the letter forms or whether the crescents that form the chainmail of the obverse knight are upwards or downwards. In a similar way this is how the Israeli researchers offered a rather solid chronology of the AMALRICVS deniers that starts with 1164/7 and goes up to c. 1220s.

The veiled spec is the epitome of elegant coin design

This veiled Laodike IV portrait:


AE15 3.35g c. 175-2BC (Antiochos IV Epiphanes)

9 hours ago, kirispupis said:

I don't have any specific article. This was just my observation from spending several hours looking through them. 🙂 What I don't know is whether each city had their "traditional tripod" or whether each die maker had a different idea when told to engrave a tripod...

FWIW, here are the other tripods I have.

Thrace, Kallatis
Circa 250 BCE
Bronze 25mm 9.74g
Laureate head of Apollo right
Tripod “KA??A-TIANON” “A?O?A” below
HGC 3.2, 1828

 

Mysia. Kyzikos
circa 300-200 BCE
Æ 11mm, 1,16g
Obv: Head of Kore Soteira right.
Rev: KY - ZI, Tripod.
Nomisma X 1; SNG BN 43

 

Macedon, Philippoi
c. 356-345 BCE
AE 18mm, 5.70g, 11h
Head of Herakles r., wearing lion’s skin. R/ Tripod; to l., monogram above grain ear.
SNG ANS 666; BMC 11

 

Akarnania, Phytia
Circa 300-250 BCE
AE 16 mm, 2.78 g, 4 h
Laureate head of Apollo to right.
Rev. ΦΥ-ΘΕ Tripod; in upper left field, monogram of ΔΙ.
BCD Akarnania 354 var. (arrangement of legend). HGC 4, 906. Imhoof-Blumer, Akananien, 155, 7

 

Ionia, Smyrna (as Eurydikeia)
AE 9mm. 0.54g
Circa 290-287/1 BCE.
Veiled head of Eurydike to right / Tripod, [Ε]ΥΡΥΔΙΚΕΩΝ to left.
Milne, Autonomous 5; SNG Copenhagen 1105. 0.54g, 9mm, 6h
Ex Nick Collins Collection
Ex Numismatik Lanz München

 

Kassander
AE 18 mm, 6.09 g, 11 h
Amphipolis (?)
Laureate head of Apollo to right. Rev. ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ - ΚΑΣΣΑΝΔΡΟΥ Tripod; to left, monogram; to right, kerykeion.
McClean 3553. SNG München 1030

Isn't the Smyrna coin supposed to be a lyre/cithara upside down?

9 hours ago, Orange Julius said:

@Marsyas Mike Haha, hunters in the same forest. That Gordian is much nicer that it appears in the seller’s photos. That same seller has a really nice Galerius follis that I’ve considered buying… but although still a good deal, it’s priced a bit high to be a great deal.

@Herodotus That shield coin is a beauty with just the right level of toning. Those other coins were a great buy too. I’m a sucker for anything from Alexandria.

@seth77 I’m not as familiar with medieval coins. What is it and what makes it special (I’m sure it is, but interested in why)?

@Amarmur What a great buy! $25 for those 3 is a steal. I’ve dreamed at finding coins at a flea market or garage sale set in costume jewelry but have yet to have it happen. $20 for that historic type for LV is great too!

@Nerosmyfavorite68 I have yet to snag an Aemilian and have been hunting for a deal on one but… they’re scarce and even on eBay draw attention. I remember that Nero too, sad thing that it broke. I once bought an Egyptian Eye of Horus that arrived smashed. I got a refund but was super bummed out. I still have the pieces.

@ela126 Oooh is that a late Byzantine Alexandrian coin? Who is it? Love that. I find coins of regions that were slipping away or briefly recaptured during that time period very interesting. Coins of Carthage, Rome, Alexandria in the Byzantine era are very cool.

@Roman Collector Love that coin too, I remember reading your original write up on it. Consecratio coins are so cool. I’ve considered a side collection of just those. I think the last funeral pyre type was minted by Claudius II.

@Harry G Oh that Decentius is a gem! I actually thought about you when creating this post as you seem to have a love for rare 3rd and 4th century stuff. That Laelianus you have is a dream coin and you always seem to have interesting Claudius II and Aurelian coins as well. You’re likely my bidding competition that I loose out to for some of these coins haha!

For wins… I also have this Domitian bought on eBay for $9. I could see a bit of silver poking out and suspected it was a nice encrusted denarius… and it was. It’s still not full cleaned. I like it but these days, I kind of wish I’d left it encrusted as you done see many 1st century silver coins “as found.”

Oh and for anyone that didn’t catch the joke above with the eBay Sold screenshot… that’s a coin (1 of I think about 3 known) of Domitian II. Ugly but rare and something I could see poping up on eBay, although I’m sure it would not go unnoticed.

It's a denier of Bordeaux for Henry Plantagenet as King of England. Most Aquitanian coinage at this point is usually for Richard, Henry seems to be considerably scarcer.

2 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

I struggled to think of a first example, although there have been such coins.  I suppose this Aemilian would fit the bill for worked out.  Not only was it fairly cheap, 195 Euros, in-hand it looks basically like a regular Ant with deposits.  Much less bad than the photo.  It's not so much a 'bad' photo; it's just difficult to photograph.  The spots aren't as obvious in person.

Aemilian
AR Antoninianus, Rome, 253.
21 x 22 mm - 3.41 g

IMP AEMILIANVS PIVS FEL AVG
Radiate, draped and cuirassed bust of Aemilian to right
R/ PACI AVG
Pax standing left, leaning on column with her legs crossed, holding branch in her right hand and transverse scepter in her left.
 

Cohen 26. RIC 8

 

The crushing disappointment is easy.  It wasn't so much the cost, which was 80-something dollars, it was the opportunity cost.  I now would have to spend a lot more to get another Nero as Caesar denarius. Furthermore, I never did receive satisfaction - over a cheap coih.  Although to be fair, I had recently picked up some delightful coins from that dealer. My orders were way cut back, for two reasons; that, and I was afraid of getting anything fragile or small, because of the el cheapo, floppy mailer.  I had to go DHL Express for anything decent, doubling the cost of shipping.

It was bad luck; I ordered it during the Christmas rush and the packing was sub-par.  But hey, the droopy mailer is environmentally-friendly!

Here's the coin before being snapped in half.  If the Philip Dacia provincial had been damaged I wouldn't have cared as much.

To paraphrase Aaron Berk from one of his podcasts, a buying relationship can be going along dreamily with a dealer...until it's not (i.e. the first problem pops up).

Nero (Caesar, 50-54). AR Denarius (19mm, 3.23g, 12h). Rome, AD 51. Bareheaded and draped young bust l. R/ Simpulum above tripod; on r., lituus above patera. RIC I 77 (Claudius); RSC 312.

 

Oh man I remember that horrible delivery fiasco. And what an interesting coin that was, even worn as it was, it looked great.

The pic was rather blurry but it wasn't cheap. Still a good buy.

It's a beautiful portrait but my favorite is still the veiled portrait.

Really happy with this latest Caesarea Cappadocia with an unlikely and rare military bust type for Elagabal:

AE27mm 12.28g c. 219-20

Here is a clear rendition of the obverse legend (although worn) with the title of Autokrator very visible:

Α Κ Μ ΑΥΡΗΛΙ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔ -- and the radiate Helios in the countermark very well preserved. This coinage with this legend can only be after early January 222.

And two bonuses:

1. another more regular Alexander as Caesar, earlier emission K Μ ΑΥΡΗΛIOC ΑΛƐΞΑΝΔPOC, obverse die-match with my coin #2 above:

2. An Elagabal with an interesting and scarce military bust, struck post the wedding of 219 with Julia Paula

All three have the same GIC12i counter mark, radiate head of Helios r. inside circular punch mark, likely applied under Gordian III or later.

Some of those bags look like they could be actually storing a dead body.

Do you have any with cat paws?

I found this picture online recently:

It's an "enhanced" image of the base of the Obelisk of Theodosius in Constantinopolis, captured in 1855 by James Robertson, rather well-known engraver, artist and photographer, involved in a lot of the cultural aspects of the Ottoman Empire's "opening up" to Britain around the time of the Crimean War, showing a glimpse of what it looked like being in the Ottoman capital as the Empire itself was breathing its last.

The obelisk itself is not really visible, but what actually counts, the monument to the reign of Theodosius I is clear and haunting, almost alien in the context. Mr. Robertson had a definitive flair for the dramatic. Here's the very short timeline of the monument:

- the actual obelisk was initially dedicated to Pharaoh Thutmosis III (1479-25BCE) in Karnak

- in 356-7AD it is brought to Alexandria for Constantius II

- in 390 it's raised on the spina of the Constantinopolitan Hippodrome and dedicated to Theodosius

At that time, Theodosius was at the top of his game, master of the whole Empire -- the Hadrianopolis disaster in Thracia had been mitigated, Magnus Maximus in the West had been eliminated and Valentinian II was inconsequential. His own dynasty seemed in place and secure.

An early coin from Antioch c. 380 shows him as the quintessential late Roman imperator et dominus, even though at that time he was still in the shadow of Gratian as a junior partner.

Now back to the obelisk and its dedication in Constantinopolis. The inscription on the base is still complete in the picture although the last line is underground:

DIFFICILIS QVONDAM DOMINIS PARERE SERENIS
IVSSVS ET EXTINCTIS PALMAM PORTARE TYRANNIS
OMNIA THEODOSIO CEDVNT SVBOLIQVE PERENNI
TERDENIS SIC VICTVS EGO DOMITVSQVE DIEBVS
IVDICE SVB PROCLO SVPERAS ELATVS AD AVRAS

Might as well be:

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

41 minutes ago, Claudius_Gothicus said:

Great coin! As for your considerations regarding the timeline of these issues, I agree with you that trying to make all the emissions fit in a logical order seems a hard task due to all the peculiar aspects of these coins. I tried going on RIC V Online to see whether I could gain any insights by studying any eventual die matches and what I found is quite interesting, I think:

Firstly, as we can see, there are obverse die links between issue 1 coins ("no reverse marks" emission) and issue 2 coins ("M/C" emission), as well as obverse die links between issue 2 coins and issue 3 coins ("SPQR" emission); I think that this means both that these three groups of coins were struck at the same place, and that this is the correct chronological order, since I did not find any obverse die links between issue 1 and issue 3.

However, there's also something harder to explain:

To me, it seems like this Smyrna coin is an obverse die match to a coin from Cyzicus' issue 1! Does this mean that there was actually only one mint or were the dies moved around? Assuming that these coins are legitimate and not an ancient forgery or imitation, I can see two different way to organize the emissions' timeline in a way that makes some sense, though they still seem a little contrived to me.

OPTION 1:

1) The Cyzicus "issue 1" coins are actually prototypes struck at Smyrna by new, inexperienced engravers, which would explain the legend errors, the lack of reverse marks and the fact they're mostly copying Smyrna types (this is when the hybrid coin shown before is accidentally struck);

2) The Smyrna mint is closed shortly after and its workers moved to Cyzicus;

3) After a brief, official emission commemorating the mint's transfer ("issue 2" with M/C reverse marks) they resume using the SPQR marks they had been using before;

OPTION 2:

1) The Cyzicus mint is opened while Smyrna is still actively minting coins, and staffed by new, novice workers;

2) After the small, prototype "issue 1", the new workers begin striking "issue 2" coins with M/C reverse marks to celebrate the mint's opening;

3) Shortly thereafter the Smyrna mint is closed and its workers moved to the already-open Cyzicus - the latter adopts the SPQR marking to signify that it is now the new main mint for the region;

4) The Smyrna workers keep some of the old dies, which get mixed up with some Cyzicus dies (this is when the the hybrid coin shown before is accidentally struck);

I'd like to hear what you think and whether anybody else has any suggestions on how to organize these strange emissions.

 

Tell you what it looks like to me:

- the last two coins 'Smyrna phase 2' Temp 847 and the 1st issue Cyzicus are both Cyzicus issues

- the type 847 in general is Smyrna, but on the coin you posted (FAC coin) the obverse is Cyzicus to my eyes, early SPQR series early 269 rather than Smyrna

- the reverse die on the other hand is possibly Smyrna

- which would make perfect sense if the operation moved from Smyrna to Cyzicus, such 'continuation' of older dies is to be expected

- I don't think the two are obverse die-matches, if you check out the imaginary line from the tip of Claudius nose to the legend on the obverse on the SPQR coin the line would end mid S of CLAVDIVS while on the no mark coin just after the S, but they are certainly very close

- a die sharing between SPQR and no mark would probably suggest what you mentioned above, the SPQR operation moved to Cyzicus while the no marking operation was undergoing there, so the 1st emission of Cyzicus could in theory be contemporary with the last SPQR coins struck at Smyrna, the physical moving of the operation, cutters paraphernalia, including used dies, and the first coins struck with SPQR at Cyzicus probably late winter-early spring 269

All in all that FAC coin is really interesting.

1 hour ago, Tejas said:

That is very helpful, many thanks for the links. Here is the picture from Dannenberg, table 55, no. 1240.

My coin weighs 1.45 g. 

Besides Dannenberg, tab. 55, no. 1240. Another pieces was recorded as Collection Pick I (Auction Dr. Busso Peus Nachf. 405 - 15. ). If anybody happens to have this catalog, I would be very interested in a picture.

 

The only other piece I could find in an auction is this one: 

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=567287

Here it is also attributed to Heinrich II (or his time) and Mainz or Verdun. 

Interestingly, Theophanu used the title Emperor instead of Empress and called herself Theophanius in official documents, probably because a woman could not normally be emperor in her own right, or because the title empress was reserved for the emperor’s wife. Hence, she was known as Theophanius gratia divina imperator augustus" .

I really like the idea that she may have commissioned this issue during her reign as Roman Emperor.

That would explain the rarity, not just the design. And with such a multitude of types being struck by the German mints, I wonder why the attribution to Mainz or Verdun. Does it show stilistic characteristics to those mints? And if Theophanou's coinage one would assume that it was tied to her personally rather than a local mint, no?

The presence of Theophanou and her entourage, court and artisans is a very elegant and likely explanation for this "Byzantine" German coinage. I also think that the coin is likely pre-1000 considering the style and flan. What does it measure/weigh?

This is a coinage from the first part of the 1270s probably. The denier tournois is introduced to the Frankokratia in the 1260s, with coinage imported from the Occitan and Provencal areas following the interdiction of the deniers tournois of Alphonse de France and Charles d'Anjou by Louis IX of France. This smaller title and lighter denier tournois was the blueprint for the Greek denier tournois, which was likely started by Guillaume II de Villehardouin around 1267, after the Viterbo treaty, when Guillaume entered the orbit of Charles d'Anjou in his push eastward. The Frankish coinage did in fact reach the Eastern Levant, up to the coast of Israel, Lebanon and Syria and even the Greek variations were used in the late and very late stages of the 'Crusader' principalities in the Holy Land and Syria. In fact the coinage started in 1267 (but with the bulk minting around 1270+) was back to France by the early 1300s to supplant the lack of good billon coinage during the debasement and inflation crisis that gave Philippe IV the moniker of 'roi faux monnayeur'. And not only that, but the coinage was so successful that it ended up being adopted by the Eastern Empire itself in the form of the 'tornesion' (after the reform of 1304 that re-introduced silver in the Byzantine monetary system) and the 'politikon' (the silver local Constantinopolitan denomination by mid 14th century). If we were to follow its other manifestations as 'monnaie noire' based on the tornesii of Giovanni II Orsini of Arta that were copied and used extensively throughout the Balkans, the Danube trade and the Bulgarian and Byzantine Black Sea on one hand and the tornesii of the Maona di Chio minted by the Genoese corporation for the Aegean trade, the career of this coinage goes well to the mid 16th century.

That being said, if you want to actively collect these coins, there are many variations and many mints to be found, especially easy the 3 main Greek mints of Glarentza (CLARENTIA/CLARENCIA like your coin) for the Principality of Achaea, Thebes for the Duchy of Athens (you can read my numismatic synopsis of the denier tournois of the Duchy of Athens here) and Naupaktos/Lepanto for the Angevin Despotate of Epirus, a Latin breakaway realm carved from the Epirus of the Komnenodoukai. To follow all variations, you can check the library your father left you for Malloy's main work (ed.) - Coins of the Crusader States. Additionally I find the following works very helpful:

- Tzamalis - Coins of the Frankish Occupation of Greece 1184-1566.

- Baker - Coinage and Money in Medieval Greece 1200-1430

I for one love this part of European history that combines and mixes the West and the East in a complex and eclectic manner, bringing the feudal system and the expeditionary ethos of the Western barons and the Catholic Church to the centralized forms of power and the dynamic diplomacy and soft power of the Byzantine Empire during the Komnenodoukai of Epirus-Thessalonica and the Palaiologai. Medieval Greece is extremely complex and thanks to the extremely influential monetary move made by Guillaume de Villehardouin, numismatics plays a great role in understanding this story.

Last but not least, the paperwork that your father saved makes this coin very interesting and desirable. You have there Malloy's notes and the publication of the catalog that gives your coin its pedigree. As a student of the Greek Frankokratia and of the denier tournois, I can say that I really appreciate seeing the coin with the documentation together. Hope you'll get some of the enjoyment your dad certainly got when collecting it (otherwise he wouldn't had kept it all together) from this coin.

Here is a contemporary:

The nummii minimi of Anastasius c. 491-8, the last 'late Roman coinage' before the introduction of the M/K/I/E/B denominations.

AE8mm 0.7g

AE8mm 0.72g

AE9mm 0.69g

6 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I believe Jochen still posts on Forvm, and still was posting on Coin Talk as of a few years ago.

Yes, he was still posting on CT every once in a while, some of my purchases were directly inspired by his "dear friends of ancient mythology" posts 

2 hours ago, Heliodromus said:

Haha -yes, I was the one who started that with my "Peculiar Patina" thread, which I think even today may be the most read thread on FORVM! Nowadays I accept that they are real (and kudos to Victor Clark who recognized that from the beginning). Too bad I didn't buy some of the nice ones!

It's nice to hear names like Jerome and Kevin/Mayadigger - that was a great time to be collecting, and to be active on FORVM.

 

I have been returning often, now that I am studying 'Greek Imperial' or 'provincials' to read 20 year old threads from Patricia Lawrence (slokind) and Jochen. Back then I was too young and immature to understand the precious knowledge and insights they were dropping.

On 5/22/2023 at 9:39 PM, Heliodromus said:

I've been collecting for almost exactly 20 years. To me those early years were the golden days compared to today both in terms of supply and community - tons of finders selling good quality coins on eBay, as well as dealers such as a few fondly remembered names such as AAH (Ancient Auction House) and Slavey (Slavey Petrov the forger I believe!), etc. In those early days there were still lots of dealers with their own web sites, before they all migrated to VCoins. Bargains and rarities to be had if you could hunt them down.

FORVM was super active back then with Barry Murphy and Curtis Clay both posting and helping regularly, plus there was ancients.info where Zach Beasley (Beast Coins) would usually be seen, and the Moneta-L list was still frequented by collectors as well as dealers.

Of course it was easier to find things of interest when you are starting out, but the supply really was very different than today. I remember on one day receiving coins in the mail from 6 different countries! There were lots of foreign sellers back then who would either not speak english and/or not accept PayPal, so buying coins often entailed sending off a fistful of Euros obtained from the bank, or a Western Union transfer on occasion. I often had to communicate by email using Google translate, which was pretty poor back then (but still a game changer and amazing to have)... Due to the poor quality translation my process was to translate to target language, then back into English to see if it was still intelligible, and if not simplify and iterate!

 

jdholds (Jerome Holderman) from Forvm was probably the first person I ever bought an oversea coin from. And then or possibly simultaneously, there was Kevin Sands (Mayadigger on Forvm) who also had a commercial site in the early 2000s where he usually sold uncleaned coins. I would buy an assortment of a few coins from his green, cruddy, orange and 'Balkan' categories and he always used to add extra coins. I also remember the big controversy surrounding 'monneron' and his 'hoard' of Constantinian AE3s that where heavily dissected online and either condemned as fakes or accepted by others as very nice authentic coins. I also remember that back then a good siliqua was 50$ and lots of British siliquae clipped could be had for 20-30£ and shipping with Registered Royal Mail was probably the fastest in Europe, even faster than Deutsche Post.

Me: I'm gonna use this weekend to research some backlogs and add them to the database.

Me this weekend:

1 hour ago, Claudius_Gothicus said:

I have recently added to my collection two more coins that fit in with this thread's theme, though this time they're from Cyzicus' extremely rare first emission:

Roman Empire, Claudius II (268-270), Antoninianus, Cyzicus mint.

Obverse: IMP C M AVR CLAVDIVS AVG, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind;

Reverse: FORTVNA RED AVG, Fortuna standing left, holding rudder in right hand and cornucopia in left hand;

RIC V - (c.f. RIC V 233); RIC V Online 865;

This coin is in pretty poor condition, but it's the second known example of its kind (the other was auctioned by CNG earlier this year) and the only one in the entirety of Roman coinage to have this reverse legend; odd reverse legends are one of the characteristics of this emission, and my guess would be that, in this case, the engraver created this reverse legend by mixing up a FORTVNA RED and a FORTVNA AVG.

Roman Empire, Claudius II (268-270), Antoninianus, Cyzicus mint.

Obverse: IMP C M AVR CLAVDIVS AVG, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind;

Reverse: AEQVIT-AS AVG, Aequitas standing left, holding scales in right hand and cornucopia in left hand;

RIC V - (c.f. RIC V 228); RIC V Online - (c.f. RIC V Online 807);

This second coin is in even poorer condition than the other one, but even more interesting, since this reverse type appears to be completely unknown from Cyzicus, though the style of the coin makes this attribution certain, in my opinion; I do not find the discovery of a new reverse type from this emission to be particularly strange, though, since we know very little about it and all published types are known from very few examples.

Excellent coins and so fitting for a specialist collection. I find particular interest in the first one because it makes me wonder on the chronology of the Cyzicus imperial mint. The style and the flan look so different than what we see in the SPQR series moved from Smyrna. I wonder if there wasn't a very early phase at Cyzicus in early 269 that minted this coin and probably other reverse types, possibly with personnel from Europe. And afterwards, sometime later that year the minting operation from Smyrna moves to Cyzicus focusing on a few SPQR types that had been evolving from the very late Gallienus and very early Claudius II SPQR types. This is interesting because where would that leave the M - C coinage that was struck briefly also in 269 at Cyzicus "mid 269" cf. Estiot & Mairat. The pictures looks very cluttered at Cyzicus at its start as an Imperial mint, with 3 different coinages that seem to have continued for a few months until that 'mid 269' after which at least the M - C coinage stops and the no marking coinage seems to adopt the SPQR types.

Here's an example of the M - C coinage that I haven't posted anywhere yet, with Claudius in an ornate cuirass and holding his spear over his right shoulder:


 

Baduila AE5mm 0.24g nummus

I bet nobody's interested in seeing some grotty Cherson 'maiorinae' for Theodosius II after seeing all these beauties.