JeandAcre

Just paid for this one, from our very own Annes Kabel:

Archbishopric of Mainz.  Bardo, Archbishop 1031-1051.  AR denar, c. 1040-1060.

Obv. St. Martin of Tours (patron saint of the cathedral), tonsured, holding a crozier (as bishop of Tours, from 371).  +MARTIN(VS) EPIS(CO)P(VS).  (Extant ‘S’ retrograde.)

Rev.  City wall, with central tower and two flanking turrets; large gateway, crosslet in center.  (Likely a variant legend:) (MONOCIA) CIVITAS.  (Ending with another retrograde ‘S.’) 

Kluge 48; cf. Dannenberg 823 and Plate 35 (variant issue; similar motifs and legends). 

Here’s a broadly contemporaneous secular issue, of Heinrich III (‘King of the Romans’ from 1028; German emperor from 1046; d. 1056).  Unfortunately, this one lacks any title, whether ‘REX’ or ‘IMP(ERATOR).’  Only the obverse portrait suggests that it may date from the imperial phase of his reign.

Mainz.  Heinrich III.

Obv.  Heinrich, wearing neo-Byzantine crown, with pendilia.

+HE(INRICV)S. 

Rev. Church facade (evoking Carolingian and early Norman ‘temple’ motifs of the preceding couple of centuries); christogram in center.  V(RBS MOGON)CIA.  Kluge 139.

Meanwhile, Bardo was on familiar terms with the Salians, going back to the patronage of Heinrich’s father, Conrad II, from 1029.

He’s also credited with overseeing the main phases of the (re)construction of the cathedral of Mainz, dedicated to St. Martin.  Along with several German cathedrals (some with obvious, but responsible rebuilding), it resonantly demonstrates the earlier but fully realized Romanesque style for which the Salian period is well known.

Yes, Duane Allman.  A true genius.  (Anecdotally, he did session work  for, just for one, Aretha Franklin.)  For that minute, there were two guitarists in the band who were on that level.  

(Instant edit:) They both did slide like nobody's business.  ...Well, maybe John Lee Hooker.  After whom, I'm done.

...Okay, @Phil Anthos, you did it.  I'm needing another track from the same album, with Betts doing the lead vocal.  First, a coin of no relevance at all.

Henry II, King of England 1154-1189.

AR penny of London, Cross-crosslet / ‘Tealby’ coinage, class A2 (c. 1158-1161).

Obv. Henry facing, crowned, holding a sceptre surmounted by a cross in his right hand. (His hand, and the jewelled left /right-hand edge of his cloak, extend to the lower part of the outer edge.)

[From 8 o’clock:] +h[EN]rI rE[X] ANG (‘HENRI REX ANG[LIE];’ Henry, King of England).

Rev. Cross; St. Andrew’s crosslets in each angle.

[From 11 o’clock:] +SWETM[AN ON L]VN (‘SWETMAN ON LVN[DE];’ the moneyer Swetman, in London.)

North 952 /2 (and p. 218, ‘Tealby Coinage: Mints and Moneyers’), Spink 1137.

Followed by 

I've never evolved to thinking about this as a wider, general practice.  But it tends to be easy to spot a dealer who's emotionally invested in what they're doing, as well as otherwise.  In those instances, especially, thanking them registers as part of the joy of the whole transaction.  More often than not, they're very appreciative in turn.

...But I've corresponded with lots of dealers about lots of different issues.  And, I must say, have had very good luck.  Even with larger dealerships, often there are individual members of the staff who are happy to correspond.  ...I like to think that these run to being basically decent, nice people, and that the exceptions prove the rule.

...Oooow.  One more.  That's one of my all-time favorite Allman Brothers tunes, too.  

...Terrific coin and brilliant tie-in.

No, go tug @galba68's sleeve, like @CPK suggested!  His latest posted example is only this great:

Just, Yow.  For me, it's mystifying --granted, funly so-- that you can do such a magnificent job with the detail, while leaving the patina so gloriously intact.  ...I've only evolved to the level of saying, 'well, no, it's not alchemy....'

...Aah.  Dannenberg does correspond, approximately, to Kluge 140 (mysteriously with a completely different reverse legend, but also of Mainz).  I wasn't allowing enough latitude for variation in the reverse motif.  But, yes, as an imitation, that part makes intuitive sense.

Going back years, ebay started out having rafts of fake earlier medieval silver, Anglo-Saxon and so forth.  From the onset, they were all summarily laughable.  Sorry to hear that it's progressed to Byzantine.

@Annes Kabel, it wouldn't surprise me for a minute if you were spot on!  That's definitely in the same geographic range; as you probably know, various levels of Viking presence extended all the way across northern Poland.  --I didn't even look at Dannenberg; dumbly, since he's still often more comprehensive than Kluge.  Gotta make a beeline to the site that has it online!  Many thanks for pointing this out!

Huge thanks, @Topcat7, @sand and, belatedly, @John Conduitt!

...Yikes, I didn't even notice that @John Conduitt had already included a link!  Dope-Slapping Time....

@sand, I'm copying your instructions to put in a Google doc.  Pretty sure I never got rid of Microsoft Paint.  Might try out the keyboard keys, just to make sure they don't work in Windows 7.

...Honest, I need a whole new machine.  Mostly just dreading having to export half a ton of stuff from this one.

This is going to verge on oxymoron.  Right, a thoroughly secular ethnic Muslim, and an unapologetically observant Christian (starting with Corelli).  Sorry for that.  Well, sort of....

(Edit: Oh, No, the Coin.  Aksum /Axum, 5th c.  AE, gold inlay; one of the later ones to have consistently Greek legends.  Munro-Hay 76; Hahn 283-320.)

But Salman Rushdie's descriptions of his attack in upstate New York

(shorter, then longer version: 

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-68739586 

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/16/1244847366/salman-rushdie-knife)

had to remind me of the avowed, crazy-off-his-meds racist from Indiana who 'wilded' me in the alley of my old apartment building.  What had to resonate, besides the blood (and, mercifully, the immediate shock) was the eyeball that he left dangling out of the (new edit: Woops,) right socket. 

Witness what happened to Salman Rushdie's.  ...You're welcome to infer what I ascribe this to, but at the ER, they were able to pop mine back in ...and it Still Works!

Right, my own experience elicited this, otherwise frankly weird response.  (Thank you, the Corelli.)  Meanwhile, though, I'm very grateful that, for one, neither of us sustained brain damage.  Salman Rushdie describes how his assailant didn't know what to do with a knife; mine didn't know how to kick someone's head in. (Edit:) Despite his Doc Martins.

Thanks All the way Back At you!  :<} 

...Hoping you get an honest minute to post more.

...As such, just intuitively, my best guess for the prototype would have to be an issue of Heinrich III (1039-1056).  Replete with Viking 'peck marks' on the reverse. 

...Yes, especially in reference to trade across the Baltic, peck marks extend from the high point of the raids, conquest and settlement in western Europe, well into the 11th century.  An illuminating demonstration of how, even as the Scandinavians were beginning to settle down, increasingly emphasizing their ubiquitous genius for trade over their earlier, more dramatic pirsuits, they were still, well, culturally 'Vikings.' 

...You get the same vibe from the Icelandic sagas (the earliest manuscripts of which only go back to the 13th century).  --Thank you, on this level, the 'Vikings' took a Long Minute to stop being, well, 'Vikings.' ...How did modern Scandinavians end up being as chill as they are?  The process goes back as far as this. 

...All you have to do is to give equal weight to the cultural dynamics.  Once you do that much, the Anglo-American stereotype of the 'Viking Age' summarily ending in 1066, with the Battle of Stamford Bridge, can be relegated to the comic books.

6 hours ago, Bonshaw said:

It depends on your perspective. I consider Oliver Cromwell as an interesting historical figure, and would be fascinated to own something he valued. But tell that to the Irish

The venom in Terry Woods voice when he sings!

A curse upon you Oliver Cromwell, you who raped our Motherland
I hope you're rotting down in hell for the horrors that you sent
To our misfortunate forefathers whom you robbed of their birthright
"To hell or Connaught" may you burn in hell tonight

This is one 17th century figure who is not yet a "normal" historical person.

@Bonshaw, your point is very, very well taken.  Right, I like a lot of Van Morrison, but my own Scots-Irish descent will always register with a measure of guilt.  Kind of comes with the territory; if your apprehension of history is limited to the merely cerebral level, it's inherently inadequate.  ...Nope, with several boatloads of English Puritans on my dad's side of the famiy, nothing's going to make me like Oliver Cromwell.  

As @kirispupis said (um, less than 24 hours ago), this level of historical resonance can extend as far as the First Jewish Revolt.  ...I have to think that in both contexts, the consequences have continued to reverberate to the present day.  But even independently of that, history really needs to register emotionally as well as cerebrally.  (Edit 2:) Not necessarily by way of drastically altering one's (edit 1:) well, let's say, overtly political biases; more for the content to be more fully realized in one's own mind, on a much broader level.

9 hours ago, Salomons Cat said:

I think that the coin is innocent.
Doesn’t matter who held it in his hands. It is not “cursed” now, or anything like that. I don’t believe in superstitions or that a coin can carry any kind of karma.
Obviously, we always share this world with some monsters (just look at the current political situation with Russia, Iran, China, North Korea…). Our coins have passed through many hands and we can never know who all the previous owners were.

Therefore, I would suggest to forget this unfortunate provenance. And maybe a friendly collector will buy it, be happy with it and give it a good provenance for the future.

 

6 hours ago, Roman Collector said:

Western civilization must come to terms with its distant past. Western Classical Antiquity was a very different place than the 21st century CE. Rome was by no means unique. All cultures of that time and place were (with a few exceptions in terms of form of government):

Patriarchal
Monarchical/imperial
Preindustrial
Prescientific
Slave-holding
Polytheistic

That's just the way human beings were at the time. It was a disease-ridden, superstitious, violent and cruel place, with income inequality and mortality rates that we modern people cannot even fathom. Even those who are remembered as benevolent rulers would be considered ruthless dictators by modern standards. Yes, "if you collect Roman, you've got a cabinet full of coins issued by murderous, torturing, genocidal, megalomaniacal, perverse, misogynistic pedophiles." Yes, you do. 

Nonetheless, we inherited our culture from these people. Fundamental things, such as our languages and the alphabets we use to write them, our architecture and attitudes about honor and shame and about hospitality. Yes, we're descended from Plato and Demosthenes and Galen and Marcus Aurelius. But we're also descended from people who could buy a 12-year-old girl as a slave and who crucified people for shoplifting. Caracalla is as much of our history as Sappho or Cicero. It's important to recognize this and not simply sweep it under the rug.

What does it mean to collect coins of the Roman Empire? Can we assume those who collect them are monarchists who would sacrifice their teenage daughter to the gods in exchange for favorable winds for sailing? Or are they to be seen as stoic philosophers coming to terms with losing 2/3 of their children to disease? Or is that reading too much into their collecting interests either way? For these things we collect are evidence of an economic system, a political system, and religious and cultural values. When studying these little metal disks, we ask not only "whose face is this" on the obverse, but we ask, "how much food could this buy" and "how long would a laborer have had to work to earn this coin" and "what did the concept of 'homonoia' signify to those who lived in second-century Phrygia". 

@Salomons Cat and, to a lesser degree, @Roman Collector, what some of us here are getting at is that the locus is pretty emphatically not the coins themselves, but the widely varying, irreducibly subjective ways in which we relate to the attendant contexts.  Yes, there can be a visceral dimension to this, but it has to do with our subsequent associations, rather than any innate 'karma' of the coin as an object.

...I guess you could apply that principle both to the historical context, and some particularly odious former owner.  Granted, I've had the good fortune never to have had to deal with the latter case.  ...At least to my knowledge (and if I'm wrong, I'm happy to stay so!)  But if I did, the operative dynamic would still be associative, on my part, rather than anything relating to the coin itself.  In effect, it would be my issue, not the coin's.

...Well, why not, one more repost.  This is a trachy from Latin Constantinople.  Annoyingly, it imitates a prototype of Manuel II which eludes capture on Wildwinds.  But another example, only better, from CNG, is on Wildwinds, citing Sear 2022 and Dumbarton Oaks IV: 2.  https://www.wildwinds.com/coins/byz/latin_rulers/t.html 

Regardless, the main selling point was the same; the remarkable state of the reverse legend.  Yep, it's Manuel, alright.

...Still, @ela126, I'm rooting for your initial interpretation to be the right one.  There's intuition, and then there's intuition based on a solid history of hands-on experience.  The second kind inhabits a whole different sphere.

Yes, @Valentinian, that one isn't just exceptional; subjectively, it's sit-up-in-your-chair remarkable.

...Right, with anonymous folles, when you broach the subject of rarity, it's effectively reducible to a neat transference from the (right, common enough) issues generally, to the condition.  Any of them as pristine as this are, ipso facto, rare.

...With apologies, this is yet another repost of my best example.  (I should get points for having waited this long on this thread! :<} )  The preemptive selling point was how much of the obverse legend was intact.  Basil II, Class 2.

Yowie, @Alegandron, if that isn't the best dirham of Saladin I've ever seen, it's time to enter an assisted living facility for dementia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDIG-RNwGeI

An amazing example, @lordmarcovan.  It has to evoke John James Audubon's engraving of a bald eagle doing the same with a fish.  https://www.audubon.org/birds-of-america/white-headed-eagle 

Hi, Everybody,

I Really Need Anything along these lines that works. 

Except that this now-antiquated desktop (first one I Ever bought new) is still loaded with Windows 7.  Could anyone help with something that's compatible with that, but still available for download?

15 minutes ago, JAZ Numismatics said:

So the real question is: how much time is enough to erase the distaste of owning objects associated with evil men? Because if you collect Roman, you've got a cabinet full of coins issued by murderous, torturing, genocidal, megalomaniacal, perverse, misogynistic pedophiles. 

Well, @JAZ Numismatics, to be honest, that was a major factor in the erosion of my interest in Roman coins, especially as a collector.

People have differing timelines, regarding the wider milieux that they're willing to put up with.  Even though I'm still actively collecting medieval European (granted, less of that, even --but with retirement, other factors are in play), Edward I (thanks, @John Conduitt) remains deeply problemmatic.  A couple of decades ago, when I stumbled onto well-documented descent from him, I needed a week or so to get through the initial phase of processing it.  ...I'd've been happy to stop with Henry III.  (Major patron of the arts; devoted family man; thoroughly incompetent politician.  Aggregately, likeable on more levels than not.) 

45 minutes ago, kirispupis said:

I apologize for taking this off topic a bit, but anti-semitism is everywhere. Your original story occurred in Spokane, only a four hour drive from my house. Recently, we had to pull our son out of his university in Boston for a few days so he could decompress due to the amount of anti-semitism on campus. Our synagogue has also been vandalized several times. These are scary times.

What on earth led you to think that you were the initial culprit in this regard?  No, I have to think that a reality check, regarding what's happening in real time, was precisely what was called for. 

Regarding that, a common pathology seems to be a moronically, but no less tragically ignorant coidentification of an entire ethnicity with a far more specific set of policies.  ...Or other agendas, moral, cultural, etc.  Smells very familiar, even from other contexts.

Wow, @kirispupis.  The reference to your Ladino-speaking grandfather, and Spain, is a very sobering reminder of how, by way of euphemism, venerable the European tradition of anti-Semitism is.  Even from here, it's effectively the least fun part of medieval history.  ...And no one's exempt; cf., just for two, Edward I and Louis IX in the 13th century.

...For whatever it's worth, please be indulgent enough to receive my congratulations on you Sephardic descent!  I have some residual Ashkenazi.  But, we could just start with Spinoza.  Oops, not to mention Maimonides.  (I began life as a philosophy major.)

At the local coin shop where I grew up, I got one of these dirhams of Kaykhusraw II.  Nearly half a century ago; ridiculously cheap, even with inflation and on my budget.  Access kick-self mode: it's long gone.

This is the nearest I can get these days.

Mamluks (contemporaneously in Egypt and Syria, with expansion into the Frankish Levant).  Baybars I, 658-676 AH /1260-1277 CE.  AR dirham, also (with contemporary Seljuqs) following the module of Ayyubid issues.  Album, 2nd ed. (1998), 883, noting that "[w]ell-struck examples of this [...] type are remarkably scarce."  Most of them I've seen online don't have this much of the lion.

...Somewhere, in print (don't have the book), I read that, at least for the Mamluks, the lion was effectively a heraldic insignia for the dynasty.