Simon

A New Alexius I Comnenus that will replace my original example. Not so easy to come buy, so I am happy to get this new example.

I have been doing a lot of reading on the topic of the coinage of Alexius III, ive been hunting down books that were recommended in Ross's articles and have been trying to find a clean example of SBCV-2013, I have looked through dozens of examples and that coin with the Comnenus legend is elusive. If someone has a clean or decisive example , please share. The OWK in the center of the reverse is a key as well as the KOM for the Comnenus family name. DOC has many variations but as others have pointed out new finds have been made since then for imitations and other variations. This really seems never ending. I never quite sure on examples I examine are variations or just poorly struck. I recently picked up this clipped example , we are uncertain if this was done during his rule or during Latin rule or during the 2nd reign of Isaac II and Alexius IV. This clipped example is attractive, 1.9gm and 18.9 mm It is a SBCV-2012

A new one for me, sold by Apollo ( Always has great examples.) and graded as EF. Not in my main collection but anytime I see something exceptional for Byzantine I try to add it to my collection. I am still trying to get it perfectly photographed but here is my best result so far, Romanus IV 1068-1071 AV Histamenon nomisa 4.29gm SBCV-1859

Here is my entry for trachy Tuesday. A group lot of aVF trachea from Savocca. Most seem to be small module 12th century and a few Latin trachea. Also a book that was cited @Glebe articles on Alexius III trachea. It is in Bulgarian but google translate helps me there. The German book he cited i have not found yet. I am still waiting for a Nauman coin from August 7th, a nice Alexius I trachy. It has not shipped yet. I am traveling for work. Bermuda tonight. When i get back home, i have a few more to share.

Thanks Al but they are tetartera, as for my collection of tetartera, it is complete, i have every known type from Alexius I to Alexius III. Most cases many examples and on some of the rarest i found one or two extra. To complete the collection i need a few trachea from Alexius and a few gold of several rulers. The question now is the tetarteron a weight based denomination under Alexius and John II? Until something is translated that tells us we will never know for sure.

Honestly, the way I picked Eastern Roman was by need , so many collectors of Greek , Roman Imperial, is just felt I was always walking in some one else's foot prints. The beauty of of what I collect ( 12th century Byzantine) is we are still adding to a field that has only been seriously examined in the past 50 years. Myself and many other collectors have made so many discovery's in the last 20 years that we are still writing the numismatic history. I started with the coppers, now I have worked my way to the gold because the hard part of the coppers was done. Here is a small group of SBCV-1931 , All Alexius I but weights across the board and we have no idea why. These coins got from 2.5 gm to 6gm . None of these are indications of being imitative. Here is the only perfect example I have ever seen. Very happy to have it in my collection. The legend is complete, the example is beautiful. This example really opens the door, a coin that fits the description as SBCV-1910 more than likely is another example of of SBCV-1931 overstruck on an anonymous follis of an earlier rule. The point I am making is we know so little of this denomination its hard to believe these are all categorized as the same coin. We need to know more and that to me makes Eastern Roman coinage so interesting. The road less traveled.

I see absolutely no reason to doubt it. I do not know the history of Glenn Woods but I bought this coin John II SBCV-1948 from CNG , it also had provenance to Glenn Woods, they listed so they did not have a problem either. I do not have your coin,( SB-1949) I just did not have the confidence in buying one online without seeing in person. The Thessalonica issues are thicker than the Constantinople issues .like yours. JOHN II HYPERPYRON NOMISMA IV DOC 8 SBCV-1948 OBV Christ Bearded and Nimbate , wearing tunic and kolobion, seated upon a throne without back: r. hand raised in benediction , holds gospels in l. REV Half length figure of emperor on l. and of Virgin , Emperor wears stemma, divitision, collar piece, and paneled loros of simplified type; holds hand labarum in r. hand. Virgin wears tunic and maphorion. Size 28mm Weight 4.61 VF From the Peter J. Merani Collection, purchased from Glenn W. Woods. Ex Coin Galleries (17 July 1996), lot 1296. CNG 490 April 21 Now here is the version of your coin but from Constantinople. The funny thing is the seller attributed this as an Alexius coin. You can see the difference between your issue and this issue easily. The metal is much thinner but the flan larger. 1939 JOHN II HYPERPYRON NOMISMA IV DOC 2 Constantinople Second Coinage SBCV-1939 OBV IC XC in upper field. Christ bearded and nimbate, wearing tunic and kolobion, seated upon throne without back: r hand raised in benediction , holds gospels in l. REV Full length figure of emperor on l. , crowned by Virgin. Emperor wears stemma, divitision. Collar piece, and paneled loros of a simplified type; holds in r. hand labarum on long shaft, and in l., anexikakia. Virgin wears tunic and maphorion. Size 32mm Weight 4.38gm DOC lists 22 examples with weights from 3.73gm to 4.45gm and sizes from 30 mm to 34mm So I believe you have a beautiful correct attributed coin. I do not believe John III imitated your coin type ( SBCV-1949) However , some authors think he did. I think they are wrong. Also J3 would have been less carats and to this day no one is certain where he mined the gold. Since we are talking past 1203 , some of the other experts of this time would have read something I missed. @Glebe@TheTrachyEnjoyer @seth77 @quant.geek @Al Kowsky

Not my area but I love exceptional Byzantine coins, I bought this a few years back. rephotographed moments ago. Byzantine Empire, Leo V and Constantine, 25 December 813 - 25 December 820 A.D. Bronze follis, Anastasi 497, DOC III-1 19, Morrisson BnF 30/Sy/AE/01, Wroth BMC 22, Tolstoi 22, Ratto 1803, SBCV 1635, Sommer 29.7, gVF, well centered on an oval flan, light marks and porosity, 3.886g, 22.4mm, 180o, Syracuse mint, 817 - 25 Dec 820 A.D.; obverse facing busts of Leo, on left, with short beard and Constantine, each wears crown and chlamys, cross between above; reverse L•K (initials of Leon and Konstantine), cross above

two more cracked Electrum, both Manuel.

Please forgive my cryptic answer, yes, the graph is a combination from agroecological site finds of different coinage by each of these rulers. The main locations were Athens Corinth, Asia minor might change the figures but not a lot of info from there. This gives us a basic idea on the rarity of each ruler. The John II mention I made was an irritant I have. John III copied John II coinage , he included the inscriptions of John II, to this date there is no proven Visual way to determine who made coins attributed to them. The coins he copied was a Thessalonica issue of John II Comnenus. Why did he do this? Uncertain but the coinage of John II was held in great esteem because he slightly raised the purity of his coinage, his son Manuel lowered it. The way many are attributed by dealers depends on who is hot right now, lately it was John III, so many of the coins on the market as John III could be John II. The only way to know for sure is a purity check of the gold, John the II was at 19 carats and John III is at 17 carats. Personally I thought the neater made examples were John II but the study by Eleni Lianta did not prove that. (99+) John II Comnenus (1118-43) or John III Vatatzes (1222-54)? (Distinguishing the Hyperpyra of John II from those of John III).pdf | Eleni Lianta - Academia.edu

Hi @Nerosmyfavorite68, current pricing for 12th century hyperpyra . The most affordable are John II and Isaac II. The coins of Alexius III and Alexius I are a little more. The most expensive currently also has the most amount of forgeries and that is Andronicus I Hyperpyra. This may change, in truth John II is the rarest coinage ( In general) by site finds.( See bellow) The biggest problem of his coinage is it was imitated in full by John III, the only difference proven is by the quality of the gold. J2 in 19 carats J3 is 17 carats. Even the legends are identical. John III was not born in the purple , John II was. As for the billion trachea , the trick is finding the exceptional ones. Plenty of worn ones, they circulated for a long time. This has no silvering but almost a perfect strike.

Going back to my original question, were any saints used in coinage before the 12th century besides the Virgin? I do no recall any, however I do miss things,. You were confused by my question @TheTrachyEnjoyer, what one ? Constantine being a Saint ? I am always happy to learn. Some questions lead to to better understanding. The use of St Constantine was a ambiguous figure, his life was not that of a saint but the orthodox church of that time gave him that title. I am really not certain what virtue they chose, my best guess is redemption, especially after having his wife boiled alive after she tricked him into killing his son, then he was forgiven? Here is a rare coin with St George and the first use of lye de fleur, clearly on his shield. Andronicus I , sometimes unconvincingly attributed to later ruler in the Trebizond. From the collection of Simon Bendall, now in mine. I follow Hendy and the site finds, its Andronicus I issued during the siege of Thessalonica, btw Bendall's tickets also included with the coin leaves it as Androinicus I. He never changed it. Not a rare Saint but a rare combination.

Mary is by far the most used ( Saint, Christ not a saint) because she was the Patron Saint of Constantinople. The other ones listed as common are all 12th century, were any other saints used on coins before 12th century? In the 13th century they were all over the board. The saints were being used the same way the old Gods were, each one had a story with a meaning, ready to fight, St George, St Demetrius ,both always showed as armed. Mary for protection, she was the only woman by name mentioned in the Koran. So the enemies of Constantinople would have respected her coinage. I am not sure of the stories of the later saints. Here is another Saint, common because of the Alexius III rd issue. Saint Constantine. I don't he was used that often though, not sure what he represented? Repent?

Ironically, Johns coinage by hoard find is far less abundant than Manuel. However ( Manuel) his pieces command more value now, i am not sure this will stay true. In my years of collecting coins become sparse and diasapear then reappear when the market gets demanding for that coin. The market is a controlled controdiction to availability.

Nice wins, both beautiful. Several of my coins are cracked, especially the Manauel issues of El Aspron trachea.Thinner? The sbcv_1959 seemed to flood the market recently, right now it seems very accessible, that will change soon. Yours is is a great example.

You are correct but you would not have had Picasso as you know him without Rembrandt. You would not have Rembrandt without Albrecht Durer. All art builds off of it predecessors. I would expect this is true of Eastern Roman coinage and Roman coinage and Greek coinage. I remember reading about Spiritualism and old Greek philosophy that True Beauty lies from within. So portraits were no longer flattering but abstract as some of the late byzantine coins were excellent examples of.

The fall of Constantinople was one of the factors that created the Renaissance, the older works of the Greeks and Romans were shunned in Christian medieval (Pre-Renaissance) it took the fall of Constantinople and the refugees that arrived in the west to bring the tales of ancient Greece and Rome and the written words to the Italians and reintroduced their own history to them. Also remember the recapturing of Spain from the moors was part of this. The Muslims also treasured the works of the Greeks. It was also during the translation of these works that a hate of the Eastern Roman refugees came into focus. Before the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Eastern Roman Empire was known as the Romans by the occupants of the empire AND the surrounding enemies. In Italy they were known as the Greeks. The Italians when translating the Eastern Roman literature renamed the empire as Byzantine, A name no person in the Empire ever used, it was a reference to the culture that lived there before the Romans, the city that Constantine built his new Rome on. The Italian revival of the word was used to disassociate the now Muslim city from the Roman Empire. The name was first attributed incorrectly to Hierymonymus Wolf, who was paid to translate into Latin a group of Greek texts. He did not use the term but the book that was issued had the term in the title. (I assume who paid him named it) The name Byzantium came into common usage in late Mr. Wolf had no love for the Eastern Romans. His Words "I am surprised, not sorry, that such dregs and a bilge water of an iniquitous people so long remained unmolested, and were not conquered earlier" So, the word Byzantine was born from a contempt for a people who called themselves Roman. It later became easier to describe the time period, later authors did not help. So I try not to use the word myself. Several good books of come out on the subject one is "The invention of Byzantium in Early Modern Europe." by Nathanael Aschenbrenner. Another called Romanland I have not started yet. But without the fall of Constantinople, the Renaissance would have started much later or not at all.

@Severus Alexander, i wonder how many times I made that error. Thank you for the correction.

Okay i see, billon, not the number but the mix of silver and copper. : ) ( AG?) Hypeyron is equal to three Electrum Aspron Tachy. One Electrum Aspron Trachy was equal to 16 of the Billon Aspron trachy. So one Hyperpyron was equal to 48 Billon Trachea. This changes, throughout the century as debasement occurs under Manuel I Comnenus. Also not to make this more complex but after Alexius i Comnenus a seperation is showing between the denominations. Only in the Capital are all the denominations found. In Greece it was Hyperpyron and copper trachea. In Asia Minor, Electrum trachea and billon trachea. We dont know why but hoard finds and single losses point heavily to the seperation.

Have not read it, i will have to now. Thank you @Curtis JJ.

@Nerosmyfavorite68 look forward to your next coin, I am sure it will be a winner. I just got a better coin that I have to crack out of its case, it is a replacement coin for a filler I bought only a few months ago. I will post when I am home from travel. Trikephalon is unknown why it was called that, their was a coin ( My memory is foggy) that had three on one side from an earlier ruler, that to, NOT denomination but that specific coin had that name too becaused of three figures on one side of the coin. Just so you see, Dumbarton Oakes web site, check this listing. Manuel I Komnenos, Electrum, Trikephalon (Aspron Trachy), Constantinople, 1143-1152? — Dumbarton Oaks (doaks.org) Plenty is starting to surface about the time period but keep in mind, this in a newer section of collecting, before Hendy's book in 1969, none of these coins had proper names, or understanding of how the coinage of the reform worked. I was reading an article by Metcalf the other night, he calls all tetartera under the name follis, but the research was done in 1965. I have to break out BMC to see what coins he is describing in the text. He was using a catalog written 60 years earlier to illustrate the coins. Here is an Alexius I Comnenus Trikephalon with only two figures. ( Edit, ummm the head of baby Christ would make it three. so...I goofed on that example, you might be right. The rest seem to have three people on them.)

I believe this little fellow is an AE Pentanummium , Im an not certain, the officinae is not listed in Sear, SBCV-53a 1.4gm and 11.24mm The legend in not much help. But he has a pretty green patina and I think someone holed years ago.

Hi @ewomack the Eastern Roaman Coinage (Byzantine) is a big field, it is basically 1000 years of coinage and different styles and art used. The David Sear book is the most used way to communicate between collectors, I don't think the 2021 edition is a rewrite but a reprint. It was first written in 1974 but last revision was 1987. If anyone has the 2021 edition, please correct me if I am wrong. As for where to start I loved the Wayne Sayes series and the Volume V was very influential to me when I first started collecting. Each emperor was depicted with a coin and the story of his reign. As with any type of collecting you have to dabble a bit and then decide what you want to collect and have some goals in mind. My original collection was to complete all known types of a denomination, once I completed that, I decided to collect and attempt to complete the century. @seth77 recommends (as do I) the DOC volumes, they are excellent but very detailed. You can find them online for free as well. However, I don't think I would start there until you know what you want to collect. If you have more questions, I know many on the board, as well as myself would be happy to help. Simon

@catadc specializes in the xxx denomination, its late in Europe,i hope he participates tomorrow. He has an excellent eye for details.

They had a problem with people trying to pay taxes with the debased money after the reform in 1092, I recently read that Alexius raised the taxes for people paying in old currency, so the government got the proper amount. Money had quickly become debased in the 11th century, the follis weight fell in a period 50 years from 13gm to 5gm. Alexius made the very first currency based on mixed metals. So your coin was a mix of gold and silver and the billion trachea were a mix of silver and copper and so were the City Tetartera, mixed silver with copper. He was criticized for this, but the system lasted for over a century.