See what I mean! Prices of NewStyles

[NewStyleKing]

I have stated that when NewStyles turn up they are way, way overpriced. This typical ebay example.  Stick it in a plastic case  and ask with expensive US shipping  c £700!!!  Not worth £250  in my humble opinion!  Described as minor roughness in some areas!!!  The obverse  is good, but the reverse is a train smash!  The issue is not rare  and you cannot read the 1st control  ( and more important control).  This appears to be the only NewStyle of my page 1  of ancient Athens, newly listed on E Bay  surrounded by loads and loads  of OLD STYLES  a few egregious fakes and the odd bronze  from a high rating, low price dealer!!  How can you not love the NEWSTYLE  for many,many reasons!!

Edited July 24, 2022 by NewStyleKing

[robinjojo]

Yes, I saw this new style owl on eBay a few days ago.  It is somewhat underweight as I recall and the reverse, in addition to being poorly struck (although the owl is nice), also seems eroded which suggests, to me, that there might have been some hornsilver along the edge that was removed.

As you say the obverse has a decent strike, but off center, as is often the case, but again I see some metal loss towards the lower right due to corrosion.

Edited July 25, 2022 by robinjojo

[Kaleun96]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:59 AM, NewStyleKing said:

I have stated that when NewStyles turn up they are way, way overpriced. This typical ebay example.  Stick it in a plastic case  and ask with expensive US shipping  c £700!!!  Not worth £250  in my humble opinion!  Described as minor roughness in some areas!!!  The obverse  is good, but the reverse is a train smash!  The issue is not rare  and you cannot read the 1st control  ( and more important control).  This appears to be the only NewStyle of my page 1  of ancient Athens, newly listed on E Bay  surrounded by loads and loads  of OLD STYLES  a few egregious fakes and the odd bronze  from a high rating, low price dealer!!  How can you not love the NEWSTYLE  for many,many reasons!!

This is a problem with pretty much any slabbed ancient coin on eBay and has been for a long time

[NewStyleKing]

Yeah!  But who buys them? They are not collectors  nor want to contribute to the numismatic knowledge base, it is surely only for financial gain. Well, they should buy top class specimens for that  not that piece of crap  which has no merits I can see  other  than  for a keen collector for who the value is the coin and its place in the NewStyle koinon!!   They are going to take a pounding, Musk style if they think that coin is an investment!!

The famous coin connoisseurs the SELDONS  only collected prime examples  to show off to their friends. OK they cared or knew BUGGER all about them, but what they collected like magpies were quality items  that will only grow in financial value  but not in numismatical value!!  I have a SELDON coin  I don't know nothing about it's origin  cause they weren't interested  only in the possession !!!!

ARGHH!  It seems they should have been museum curators in Italy!

NSK=John

[Kaleun96]

If they buy top class specimens, it will be no different. They will price them at 5x the market value and they'll sit on eBay for even longer. It's just how these eBay sellers work and it's not limited to just coins either. Can't do much about it, it's not illegal, so I don't see the point in wasting much time on them 🤷‍♂️

[Al Kowsky]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:59 AM, NewStyleKing said:

I have stated that when NewStyles turn up they are way, way overpriced. This typical ebay example.  Stick it in a plastic case  and ask with expensive US shipping  c £700!!!  Not worth £250  in my humble opinion!  Described as minor roughness in some areas!!!  The obverse  is good, but the reverse is a train smash!  The issue is not rare  and you cannot read the 1st control  ( and more important control).  This appears to be the only NewStyle of my page 1  of ancient Athens, newly listed on E Bay  surrounded by loads and loads  of OLD STYLES  a few egregious fakes and the odd bronze  from a high rating, low price dealer!!  How can you not love the NEWSTYLE  for many,many reasons!!

John, there are too many vendors on eBay trolling for chumps & selling overpriced ancient coins. Serious collectors don't buy this crap.

eBay ancient coin hustler hard at work 🤣.

[robinjojo]

eBay has a lot of over priced coins, not  just new style owls, with a good deal surfacing on rare occasions. 

Generally speaking a collector has a better chance of getting a decent coin at a fair price through one of the dealers on VCoins and MA Shops, with a few exceptions, i.e., fake sand patina and toning.  A shrewd bidder can also bag a nice coin at auction at a good price, including commission, but that takes a level of knowledge built up over many years of collecting in a given field.  Also, with auctions, it is often a matter of being at the right place at the right time, and there's always the chance of going over budget in the heat of bidding.

Buying a nice new style owl, getting back to the subject of this thread, has never really been easy, especially for grades EF and above.  A collector needs to be ready to shell out some additional cash to snag one of those, especially if the strike is clear and the centering good, with most or all detail appearing on the reverse. 

Also, I avoid buying new style owls in slabs.  All that I have purchased over decades were "raw".  Of those, I would rate only three in the super nice grade range. and they were purchased back in the early or mid  90s.  The rest are in the neighborhood of about VF to near EF or so.

[NewStyleKing]

There is another American enterprise which slabs then asks for nearly a £1000 plus s&h  for its better NewStyles on ebay. They generally are a bit better than above but they are not prime examples too!   It seems according to feedback  that people think they are great!  I cannot see the investment in buying obviously over priced items, by what standards are they purchasing as an hedge against disaster?  Eternity coins is the name!

[robinjojo]

Yes, I have seen the tetradrachms posted by Eternity Coins on eBay.  This seller offers lots of different coins - his inventory is enormous.  Yes, he has lots of slabbed coins, but also un-slabbed, and he does have lots of owls, mostly classical owls.  I have purchased coins from him in the past, most of them slabbed, which is mostly liberate upon arrival.  When I buy a coin from him, I compare his price with comparable coins offered elsewhere.  If I really like the coin I'll buy it, but if the slab "premium" is way too high, I'll pass, or wait to see if the coin goes unsold for an extended period.  Then I might make the seller an offer.  We negotiate most of the time.

I was able to purchase some decent archaic owls from Eternity Coins.  They were slabbed, but the prices, even with the slab factored in, were close to what comparable archaic owls were fetching on the auction circuit.  

[NewStyleKing]

  Classical owls, though are ( forgive me!)  two a penny.  They are everywhere!  And artistically leave a lot to be desired!  I had one once, test cut, but as cheap as today, even though tens of thousands have been unearthed in Turkey since!  As Jo Sarimini said it's supply and demand!  Who is demanding  such an un-rewarding coin. The "progression! types are not overwhelming  and the interesting ones are the very late ones which no one seems to have. The very late ones are worth a discussion and a highlight  but that is a foreign country. Surely, all old style  talk is done except for the truly ignored very late.  Teach me otherwise .  I do this controversial stance  to keep coins interesting.  I write on NewStyles  to keep the interest bubbling  and in the eye of those interested  otherwise it become a bit of a beauty show.

NSK=John

[Etcherdude]

8 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

Classical owls, though are ( forgive me!)  two a penny

@NewStyleKingThe thing about classic owls is that they are iconic. The Athena portrait with her almond eyes and Archaic smile are wholly original, as is the stylization of the staring owl.

Where do I send my nickel for my 10 classical owls?

😉

 

[sand]

For myself, I really like the classical Athena owl tetradrachms from 440 BC to 404 BC. They have a primitive beauty, that I really like. However, after 4 years of searching for one, I still don't have one. I've been very picky, and my budget doesn't seem to want to cooperate with my pickiness. There is a huge variation, in the style of classical Athena owl tetradrachms. I like certain examples, way better than other examples. Therefore, I keep waiting, for an example, that meets my very high standards, but is within my budget.

[sand]

P.S. : The classical Athena owl tetradrachms seem to have high supply, but high demand. Supply and demand. Supply and demand cause prices. Therefore, the high prices.

Edited July 26, 2022 by sand

[NewStyleKing]

1 hour ago, Etcherdude said:

@NewStyleKingThe thing about classic owls is that they are iconic. The Athena portrait with her almond eyes and Archaic smile are wholly original, as is the stylization of the staring owl.

Where do I send my nickel for my 10 classical owls?

😉

 

 

9 hours ago, NewStyleKing said:

  Classical owls, though are ( forgive me!)  two a penny.  They are everywhere!  And artistically leave a lot to be desired!  I had one once, test cut, but as cheap as today, even though tens of thousands have been unearthed in Turkey since!  As Jo Sarimini said it's supply and demand!  Who is demanding  such an un-rewarding coin. The "progression! types are not overwhelming  and the interesting ones are the very late ones which no one seems to have. The very late ones are worth a discussion and a highlight  but that is a foreign country. Surely, all old style  talk is done except for the truly ignored very late.  Teach me otherwise .  I do this controversial stance  to keep coins interesting.  I write on NewStyles  to keep the interest bubbling  and in the eye of those interested  otherwise it become a bit of a beauty show.

NSK=John

The Sicilian coinage and other Magna Greek  make the Classic Athens"  look like  a drunk child has been let loose on a Friday afternoon.  No matter what is said , it is not artistic, nor is the flan of any quality. It is crude, crude crude. The "progressive" owls with their unbelievable FOLDED FLANS ! make a terrible planchet worse! And why?  Surely melting down and starting again would have been easier???  Even the very late and FAR more interesting Athens tetradrachms had dumpy fat flans.  No sir, Iconic to crap is my opinion.  No wonder the Stephanophores took Asia Minor by storm!  The NewStyles went from excellent  to crap too...is it an Athenian thing?  They did improve towards the very end, when, maybe they became a memorial coinage of Athen's better days!!!  I said for the old styles the numismatic talk is done...yes it is!  Nothing more to be said.  Millions upon millions produced, copied at other places, imitated, and now tens of thousands still survive !!!!  Maybe it is the careful way they choose a completely inadequate flan that attracts people. I had a mass classic but failed to see anything in it, sold it! Indeed test cuts can improve them and c/m add much more interest.   !!!  Take up the defence!!!!  

 

 

PS Did you say, Iconic or Ironic?????

 

I add my SOLD mass classic owl for your appreciation!

Edited July 26, 2022 by NewStyleKing

[robinjojo]

The demand for classic owls is driven primarily by the desire of collectors to own one these coins as a type representing an important coin issued by a historically important city.  Of course there are also folks who buy these coins based on some sort of promotion on the part of dealers and auction houses.  Hype comes with the territory, and this practice is not limited to the huge number of classic owls currently on the market.

I see a little moderation of prices for these coins, at least for mid-grade (VF) examples, but all things considered prices for these coins have remained relatively stable over time.  The very first classic owl that I purchased back in the early 1980s cost me $250.  It's a decent coin, clearly from a hoard, with deposits on the edge and signs of surface crystallization, overall a good VF condition-wise.  What's a coin in this condition worth in today's market?  I'd say somewhere in the $500 to $600 range.  If it was slabbed, probably more.  The point here is that numerically the number of classic owls far outstrip intermediate and new style owls, yet the demand for these coins has remained fairly stable over the course of decades.  I don't see any significant deviation from this trend, even after the huge number of classic owls is absorbed by the market.

Now, for the issue of the merits of classic versus new style owls, I always take a relativistic view.  The new style owls are more sophisticated in the rendering of the portrait of Athena, a very Hellenistic style influence.  The owls on the reverse are a different matter.  The new style owls depict the owl in a rather flat and stiff manner.  There, I think the owls on the reverse of some of the transitional classic owls are far better in terms of style and a more naturalistic pose.  With ancient coins each coin, indeed, each period that produces coins of a particular style have pluses and minuses. 

 

 

When I was younger I had strong ideas of what made a coin, painting or other works of art desirable to me, but as I aged so did my view to one of appreciating all coins and works of art.  Perhaps this is a sign of mental collapse, but that's just the way things are with me.  So I will continue with my collecting of all things numismatic and let the folks who follow me scratch their heads in bewilderment as they view the accumulation.

.

 

 

 

[Etcherdude]

@NewStyleKing

Aesthetics are personal but also an area of study; There are such things as informed opinions.

A statement like, “The Sicilian coinage and other Magna Greek make the Classic Athens look like  a drunk child has been let loose on a Friday afternoon” obviously reflects another type of opinion.

My offer on your “two for a penny” still stands; and please let me know if you need me to take any Picasso etchings or Van Gogh paintings off your hands.

😶

Edited July 26, 2022 by Etcherdude

[Etcherdude]

Here’s a classic owl I’m looking at. This Athena is timelessly gorgeous IMO

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Etcherdude

[NewStyleKing]

It would seem that if every ancient coin collector  had a classic Athenian owl, then  there must be many, many more ancient coin collectors out there than would appear..  Do they participate  in the ancient coin collecting koinon?    No, has to be the answer.  What do they do in their solitary world?  They add nothing  to the world of numismatics,  just like the Seldons of NYNY.  Its like owning the Salvatore Mundi  and knowing nothing about the painting, its controversy's  and Leonardo da Vinci, nor art critique, indeed nothing except possession.  And maybe sold off on ebay by the not knowing relatives , like sort of to appear on the antiques roadshow  after being bought in a car boot sale!

I have rescued two NewStyles from such purdue  , a coin from the Seldons, thought to have been mentioned in Thompson with no previous pedigree Artemis and Demeter, and 2 Palms via Roma  "from a private English collection!  one of only 4 known ( to my RESEARCHES)   A lot like Roma's gold Eid mar. Apparently just sitting there in someones private collection  for decade after decade after decade....!  People buy ancient coins all the time, nice examples from good auctions...what do they do with them?  Do they attempt to study them?  No . I fail to see the point.  After All,  I know in the real world, out there no one is interested, including Classics at the University of Warwick!  Mention coins and their eyes glaze over  and change the subject!

BTW Etcherdude watching mass classic owl above is particularly nice. Athena is excellent!

 

NSK=-John

 

[NewStyleKing]

13 hours ago, robinjojo said:

The demand for classic owls is driven primarily by the desire of collectors to own one these coins as a type representing an important coin issued by a historically important city.  Of course there are also folks who buy these coins based on some sort of promotion on the part of dealers and auction houses.  Hype comes with the territory, and this practice is not limited to the huge number of classic owls currently on the market.

I see a little moderation of prices for these coins, at least for mid-grade (VF) examples, but all things considered prices for these coins have remained relatively stable over time.  The very first classic owl that I purchased back in the early 1980s cost me $250.  It's a decent coin, clearly from a hoard, with deposits on the edge and signs of surface crystallization, overall a good VF condition-wise.  What's a coin in this condition worth in today's market?  I'd say somewhere in the $500 to $600 range.  If it was slabbed, probably more.  The point here is that numerically the number of classic owls far outstrip intermediate and new style owls, yet the demand for these coins has remained fairly stable over the course of decades.  I don't see any significant deviation from this trend, even after the huge number of classic owls is absorbed by the market.

Now, for the issue of the merits of classic versus new style owls, I always take a relativistic view.  The new style owls are more sophisticated in the rendering of the portrait of Athena, a very Hellenistic style influence.  The owls on the reverse are a different matter.  The new style owls depict the owl in a rather flat and stiff manner.  There, I think the owls on the reverse of some of the transitional classic owls are far better in terms of style and a more naturalistic pose.  With ancient coins each coin, indeed, each period that produces coins of a particular style have pluses and minuses. 

 

 

When I was younger I had strong ideas of what made a coin, painting or other works of art desirable to me, but as I aged so did my view to one of appreciating all coins and works of art.  Perhaps this is a sign of mental collapse, but that's just the way things are with me.  So I will continue with my collecting of all things numismatic and let the folks who follow me scratch their heads in bewilderment as they view the accumulation.

.

 

 

 

Robinjojo,  That NewStyle of yours, I have seen many times before! It is a particularly nice example  of a sort after issue.  The Elephant is everyone's target.  Do you know that the controversy about  Antiochos has calmed down!  He is no longer a Seleucid prince who was in Athens learning philosophy or stuff, but that  it is a quite common Greek name of an unknown person!  That style of Athena is typical of the 120's BC.

Nice coin!

NSK=John

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by NewStyleKing