Internet privacy and sharing coins online.

[JayAg47]

I am sure there are so many ancient coin collectors out there who have never posted any of their coins online, and so many 'stackers' who keep their hobby to themselves, let alone showing it to the world. At the same time I see heaps of gold/silver purchases being posted on reddit, and expensive ancient coin acquisition on FB groups and forums such as ours. I'm constantly questioning the safety of sharing coins or other valuables online, particularly on platforms like Facebook and reddit, where your identity is often public if your avatar is a photo of yourself. Some FB coin pages even require a personal photo/name for participation, that's why I mostly avoid posting coins on those page, although I regularly do so on Reddit because of better privacy. Given that completely erasing one's digital footprint is nearly impossible, I'm curious about the measures you've taken to minimise such risks. 

[Kali]

I ditched the ancient coin FB groups years ago. There wasn't any particular ONE reason. I am a member of several facebook groups of other interests and I think it was mainly because I posted on several other coin boards and it just felt redundant and I wanted to prune the "group" list, so to speak.

I've posted many of my ancients, for several decades, as well as U.S. and World Moderns, and I haven't had any issues.

[sand]

I won't post my coins on Facebook, or talk about my coins on Facebook, because a person cannot be anonymous on Facebook.

[seth77]

I help people on facebook groups but I never post. I also frequent German, Italian and French forums, where I used to post, but now I seldom do, and when I do it's also to help with id. I used to do writeups on CT, but since the Ancient section of CT moved here I only do writeups here.

[Hrefn]

Never been on FB.   

I believe this forum provides some degree of anonymity, but I have no idea how well that would hold up under the assault of an expert hacker.  I suspect someone who really desired to figure out my identity could do so in many ways, even without compromising this site itself.   Sadly, all discussion which is self-revelatory carries some danger, at least potentially.  One has to weigh the risk against the benefit.  I know I have gained enormously from membership in Numis Forums from the enjoyment of sharing my collection and thoughts with congenial and knowledgeable members, and I have benefitted greatly from the erudition of others.  

One could hack the client list of Roma or any other high-end numismatic firm, and have not only the addresses, but the particulars of specific purchases, and even credit card numbers of clients.   Or a malicious individual insider could sell such information.  Nearly every purchase we make exposes such critical information.  

But, even armed with this data, the thief can have no expectation that a collector keeps his or her collection at home.  I suspect everyone gets a safety deposit box at some point in time.  More affluent collectors may chose other security methods.

I suspect stealing coins is a bit of a high risk low reward activity.  Unless a collector keeps a row of Athenian dekadrachms on the kitchen table, a thief is better advised to just steal the collector’s car.  If it is new, it is probably worth more than the coin collection.  It is a sure thing, rather than breaking into a house to find something which may or may not be there.  The car is more easily disposed of, as opposed to coins which may be individually identifiable, and traceable back to the thief with bad legal consequences.  

The random smash-and-grab junkie looking for a quick score is probably a greater threat than a clever targeted thief combing through Facebook posts.  But I would be eager to hear from anyone with law enforcement or personal experience.

 

[Bonshaw]

5 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Never been on FB.   

I believe this forum provides some degree of anonymity, but I have no idea how well that would hold up under the assault of an expert hacker.  I suspect someone who really desired to figure out my identity could do so in many ways, even without compromising this site itself.   Sadly, all discussion which is self-revelatory carries some danger, at least potentially.  One has to weigh the risk against the benefit.  I know I have gained enormously from membership in Numis Forums from the enjoyment of sharing my collection and thoughts with congenial and knowledgeable members, and I have benefitted greatly from the erudition of others.  

One could hack the client list of Roma or any other high-end numismatic firm, and have not only the addresses, but the particulars of specific purchases, and even credit card numbers of clients.   Or a malicious individual insider could sell such information.  Nearly every purchase we make exposes such critical information.  

But, even armed with this data, the thief can have no expectation that a collector keeps his or her collection at home.  I suspect everyone gets a safety deposit box at some point in time.  More affluent collectors may chose other security methods.

I suspect stealing coins is a bit of a high risk low reward activity.  Unless a collector keeps a row of Athenian dekadrachms on the kitchen table, a thief is better advised to just steal the collector’s car.  If it is new, it is probably worth more than the coin collection.  It is a sure thing, rather than breaking into a house to find something which may or may not be there.  The car is more easily disposed of, as opposed to coins which may be individually identifiable, and traceable back to the thief with bad legal consequences.  

The random smash-and-grab junkie looking for a quick score is probably a greater threat than a clever targeted thief combing through Facebook posts.  But I would be eager to hear from anyone with law enforcement or personal experience.

 

These are good points. But the risk/reward is perhaps different for other ancient-coin collectors. This inspires me to want to try to write a short story.

I imagine two ancient coin collectors who are the only ones in the world trying to perfect a collection of some obscure pre-Alexander Hellenic city-state, or perhaps an obscure late Roman emperor. Both collectors have very deep pockets, and both desire one particular coin with only 2 known instances, both of which are in well guarded museums. When a previously unknown third coin appears at auction, both vie with all means (money, fraud, lawsuits, theft, murder, hired assassins, nothing is off the table) to acquire the coin. 

I'm not that interested, for this story, in recently dug hoards, or smuggling of cultural heritage out of countries. So let's imagine that this coin is well pedigreed, from a pre-1970 collection. And let's further imagine that this coin doesn't rise to the attention of most of the numismatic world, so no Eid Mar aureus, and no 3/4 facing Pantikapaion gold stater. And neither collector ever intends to show or sell the coin. This is a perfectly selfish obsession.

The key for this story is that this is a coin that really only those two people care about significantly, but for them it is life-and-death.

Can anyone suggest a coin that could plausibly elicit such a response?  Something previously unattainable, which only a couple of people might seriously care about if a new instance emerges, and yet something with major historical or numismatic resonance to those few? I think all I need here is a plausible, obscure coin with a good story. Maybe even a curse.

 

 

Edited May 19 by Bonshaw

[JayAg47]

5 hours ago, Hrefn said:

Unless a collector keeps a row of Athenian dekadrachms on the kitchen table

I heard people using silver bricks as doorstops, hiding in plain sight. 

[JayAg47]

4 hours ago, Bonshaw said:

Can anyone suggest a coin that could plausibly elicit such a response?  Something previously unattainable, which only a couple of people might seriously care about if a new instance emerges, and yet something with major historical or numismatic resonance to those few? I think all I need here is a plausible, obscure coin with a good story. Maybe even a curse.

Probably a coin that was literally touched by Jesus himself or dipped in his blood. Hypothetically discovered in the burial site of an early Christian, carbon dating of the blood stain reveals it to be around 1990 years old, alongside other holy relics. DNA testing shows that the blood on the coin and the person buried didn't match, suggesting the blood is likely Jesus's. Wars have been fought over such relics in the past, and it's easy to imagine a couple of religious billionaires going to great lengths to acquire such a coin.

Edited May 19 by JayAg47

[JeandAcre]

This is less about tooting my curmudgeonly horn than deploying a full brass ensemble.  Why it took this long to post this; you were warned.  But I'm terrified of social media generally.  And fully intend to live without a(n --oxymoron alert) smart phone until it becomes an act of treason not to.

It's not even as much about fear of theft --with thanks to @Hrefn for your valued perspective-- as about these various platforms, themselves, summarily and predatorily mining your data for their own, ultimately no less nefarious ends.  Anyone who's paying attention will know what I'm talking about.  Just look at the junk mail you're likely to get from some corporate algorithm, telling you what it brainlesly wants you to buy.  It's  annoying at the very least.  --Right, you'll never have as much time for wanton b.s. as the algorithm does.  ...I put up with email (thanks to the 'report phishing' and 'block' functions), and this forum.  In those cases, the full range of potential risk (and, yes, sheer b.s.) is at least minimized.  Beyond that, I'm kind of done.

 

Edited May 19 by JeandAcre

[DonnaML]

It would probably take someone with rudimentary skills about 5 minutes to figure out who I am. But I like to preserve at least the fiction of being technically anonymous here. I do belong to the Ancient Coins Facebook group but rarely if ever post photos of my coins there, and limit myself to giving my occasional opinions on other people's questions, because the idea of posting coin photos under my real name makes me queasy. Although I have to say I find it amusing that a Google Image search of my real name yields this photo as one of the first results:

Which one am I, apparently a secret collector of ancient coins? That's for me to know and you to find out! 

The problem with safe deposit boxes, at least in my city, is that all or most banks are phasing them out because they take up too much space and are insufficiently profitable. So it's almost impossible to rent a new one. Fortunately, I opened one about 20 years ago, and I keep paying the annual rental fee regardless of how much or how little I keep in it at any given time, because if I ever give it up I'll never be able to rent another one.

[Bonshaw]

1 minute ago, DonnaML said:

 

The problem with safe deposit boxes, at least in my city, is that all or most banks are phasing them out because they take up too much space and are insufficiently profitable. So it's almost impossible to rent a new one. Fortunately, I opened one about 20 years ago, and I keep paying the annual rental fee regardless of how much or how little I keep in it at any given time, because if I ever give it up I'll never be able to rent another one.

That is why I keep my coins buried in the middle of a nearby field in a sealed clay pot. If it is good enough for the Greeks and Romans, it is good enough for me.

[jdmKY]

@DonnaML is correct, banks are moving away from the safe deposit box business. I had a frustrating running battle with my bank, a local branch of a national megabank, over my request to rent a larger box (not because I have too many coins, but because I want to protect some of my older catalogs). I finally gave up, hired a sheriff to escort me, and moved everything right across the street to a regional bank’s branch. We’re lucky that we do have multiple smaller banks that still want to be full service. Not ready for the clay pot (yet).

[Alegandron]

I abhor facebook for anything except seeing my family's photos (6 daughters and 9 grandkids).  I do not join too many groups, and avoid anything that is dubious.  I do not subscribe to news or any other potential biased groups.

My wife sent me this, and I performed the clean up of facebook's reach into my sites.  I purge cookies and history regularly.  However, when I went to clean up facebook info per this video, they had reached into upwards of 100 sites of mine!  This video shows how to clean up the history, stop them recording your info, and stop future recording.

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/sjyo9a1LZSzdWxQp/

I was shocked and really pissed.

9 hours ago, jdmKY said:

@DonnaML is correct, banks are moving away from the safe deposit box business. I had a frustrating running battle with my bank, a local branch of a national megabank, over my request to rent a larger box (not because I have too many coins, but because I want to protect some of my older catalogs). I finally gave up, hired a sheriff to escort me, and moved everything right across the street to a regional bank’s branch. We’re lucky that we do have multiple smaller banks that still want to be full service. Not ready for the clay pot (yet).

agreed. small banks are much better for lockboxes.  I use 6 different bank, but my local small bank is my go-to for safety deposit boxes.  I had used PNC before, and they had boxes that were NOT behind a vault door, that you could just walk in, go to your box (like a post office mailbox) and open with just your key (no second key from bank personnel).  I stopped using that.

Edited May 20 by Alegandron

[Phil Anthos]

1 hour ago, Alegandron said:

I abhor facebook

period. 

And one thing to remember about safe deposit boxes is that they are NOT insured!

~ Peter 

[JeandAcre]

Thanks for the Facebook link, @Alegandron.  Most of my extended family does nothing but Facebook (email is up there with carrier pigeon); if there's a work-around, it's at least worth a look.  And thanks to you and  @jdmKY for the reassurances about local banks, where safe deposit boxes are concerned.  Mine is at least regional ...very intentionally so, on general principles.

(Summary edit:) ...And I guess it's to some point, even regarding social media, to maintain a distinction between the medium and the prevailing culture that it attracts and perpetuates.  ...Although even there, the news has been full of how Facebook's and Google Search's own, integral algorithms are set up to induce polarization in the content they steer people toward.  At that point, the dichotomy already starts to seriously break down.   But I like @Alegandron's point about using it just to stay in touch with family.  Other people have told me the same thing.

Edited May 19 by JeandAcre

[Dafydd]

I wrote an article some years ago about the dangers of namophobia after my wife and I met my sister in law for a meal, shortly after the recent pandemic "lockdown" or social experiment having  not met for two years. She spent some time playing with her phone between mouthfuls  and I asked her if she had an emergency and was told "no , I'm keeping in touch with my Facebook friends and telling them where I am". I asked how many friends  she had and she said around 700. I then asked how many she had met and that dropped to about 10. I am fortunate in having 4 true friends and several hundred acquaintances, there is a difference. Check out the following documentary titled "The Social Dilemma". Its all about creating what we don't need and artificially stimulating Serotonin and Dopamine levels in us. 

https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81254224

I don't want other people to see what I ate for breakfast, where I am or all the people I know to try and impress others, I am not that insecure. I am no Luddite and use technology in my day job and for close family and friends use WhatsApp as it is private and to the best of my knowledge secure. @JayAg47 has a good point about privacy and security but given the risks and my relatively low wealth I do not consider myself at risk but certainly wouldn't advertise in public to all and sundry that I am away from home for 2 weeks. That is common sense. I am also fairly confident that if someone is stealing from me I won't be shot so that gives some additional security.

We have a generation growing up of which many  cannot look you in the face properly because they communicate with their two thumbs. I first evidenced this a couple of years ago flying into Chicago O'Hare and having to take a bus to the terminal for whatever reason. Every person on that bus was literally heads down except me. Initially, I thought they were all in prayer or observing something like a memorial day I knew nothing about until, after a couple of seconds, it dawned on me they were all checking their phones. 

This forum does offer a degree of anonymity which I appreciate and if I share images of coins or historic sites I may visit I am fairly confident that I am not under surveillance to steal my modest collection or for that matter the Acropolis. 

 

Edited May 27 by Dafydd

[ewomack]

The best defense against theft is to never own anything that anyone else wants. 😁

There is only a single website on the entire internet where I have shared any personal information about myself, and it shall remain nameless. When I had an active Facebook account, years ago now, I used a pseudonym. Then I deactivated it. I couldn't believe the amount of personal information people shared without a care whatsoever on that platform, right down to the time and location of their dinners night by night. One ex-coworker posted pictures of a bong party she attended and took part in. Another ex-coworker posted overly revealing pictures of herself. I didn't know either person well enough to see such things. And these people were my co-workers at the time. Insane.

But yes, anonymity on the net has remained tricky. As others have said, someone with the right tools could track your computer's IP address to its exact location without extreme effort. In the past, I have searched my email address and phone number on the web and found both posted publicly with my name, my wife's name, my parents' names, my address, and even previous addresses I've lived at. Thankfully, those sites had an "opt-out" button and my information vanished once I pressed it. I suggest everyone do a search for personal information and see what is posted about you out there. You might be (unpleasantly) surprised. The battle against internet privacy is likely a losing battle, but I do my best not to make it worse.

The coin forums I've posted to seem anonymous enough, but once one buys or sells coins on one, there goes some personal information potentially into the community. On another forum, I've seen posts about people receiving mysterious envelopes at their personal addresses containing counter-marked quarters, flyers, and sometimes cash. The mailings seem absolutely harmless, but a few people expressed alarm at how this unknown person acquired their names and addresses. Though I have bought and sold coins on forums, I have yet to encounter any problems. I don't think I've ever shared anything on the internet that anyone would deem worth a breaking and entering charge to obtain, and I don't think I even own anything that would qualify as such. I do try to keep my coin purchases to a minimum to guard against the impact of potential loss, but I know that isn't (emotionally) practical for everyone (it wasn't for me at one point, either). Anything of higher value goes into the bank vault, which I hope to keep for years to come, but we'll see where that trend goes.

In the end, just use caution. if something looks suspicious, avoid it. Don't openly share personal information and use your best judgement when sharing valuable items that you own. There isn't much more to it than that.

[rasiel]

10 hours ago, ewomack said:

Don't openly share personal information and use your best judgement when sharing valuable items that you own. There isn't much more to it than that.

Maybe I'm being naive but I'm wondering if the fear is overblown (if just a bit). Suppose your name and address is revealed. So what? If thieves are targeting you for a burglary chances are they're doing so because they already know where you live and what you have worth stealing so your online profile isn't the deciding factor. On the other hand, if you're not a VIP with great valuables then, again, who cares. Pro thieves aren't interested in you anyway.

I'm far more worried about some random asshole on meth breaking in than in an Ocean's Eleven type of outfit casing my place. Worried because it's far the likelier and the outcome is so much dangerous. Either because I put a hole in some loser and have to deal with the consequences or they bash my head in because I was too asleep to wake up in time. Even if there was no violence the whole thing would likely be traumatic in the extreme for my family - and a huge disappointment for the perp who walked away with nothing of value (have no cash, jewelry or really much of anything that could be resold at a pawn shop). Burglars of this type don't bother with research. You're just unlucky enough to be in their path.

Remember that it wasn't that long ago that people's phone numbers and addresses were published in the white pages of phone books.

Rasiel

[ewomack]

22 minutes ago, rasiel said:

Remember that it wasn't that long ago that people's phone numbers and addresses were published in the white pages of phone books.

To some extent it's a personal choice whether having your personal information on the Internet bothers you or not. But the stakes have changed immensely in the past few decades. Back when people's information was in the white pages, the information printed didn't provide a potential bridge to your bank accounts, credit card accounts, or lead to the possibility of identity theft. So much is connected now and so much of that is connected to your personal information. The risks are much higher today if you're not careful online. Identity theft would also be extremely stressful for your family and can cause a lot more than just irritating disruptions, depending on the situation. I'm not saying to live in fear online, but definitely be careful because these days differ more in kind than in degree from the pre-Internet days.

Edited Tuesday at 02:24 AM by ewomack