Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 16 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted March 16 This coin will either go down as one of my dumbest purchases, or one of my smartest. I'm looking for help to determine which one. Stats given are 10mm 1.9g The coin was presented as Adramytteion, and I could see why this was guessed - but I highly doubt this coin is from there since there's no record for anything near this type. I spent the last week trying to research this coin, but I've come up with nothing. Still, since I couldn't find any matches - it intrigued me greatly as potentially coming from a very rare city - so I bid more than I probably should have on it. The following is what I have so far: I believe the portrait on the obverse is Demeter. The rough type is very common on coinage, with either a veiled or wreathed Demeter on the obverse and some ethnic within a wreath on the reverse. The following are cities that have done this. City Area Veil Within Wreath Adranon Sicily No Grain Panormos Sicily Yes Naso Enna Sicily No E-N Barley Mesambria Thrace Yes Grain Lysimacheia Thrace Yes ΛYΣIMA-XEΩN Perinthos Thrace Yes ΠΕΡΙΝ[ΘΙΩ]Ν Bisanthe Thrace Yes BI Kallatis Thrace Yes ΚΑΛ ΛΑΤΙ ΑΝΩΝ Dionysopolis Moesia No ΔIONY Istros Moesia Yes ΙΣΤΡΙH Tyra Skythia Yes TYPA Thelpusa Thessaly No ΘЄΛ Thebai Thessaly Yes ΗΘ Elaia Aeolis No ΕΛΑΙΤΩΝ Mostene Lydia Yes ΛΥΔΩΝ / ΜΟΣΤΗΝΩΝ Priapos Mysia Yes ΠPIA Eresos Rhodes No ΕΡΕΣΙ Dyme Achaia Yes ΔY Hermione Argolis No E-P/torch Of the above bunch, this coin most closely resembles the types of Elaia. However, the ethnic matches none of them. It appears to spell either ΛΑΓΑ or ΛΑΓΛ, but I haven't found any record for cities or ethnics beginning with that. There do appear to be one or two letters below, but they're tough to make out. From the above chart, I find it interesting that there's nearly no pattern in terms of a veiled or wreathed Demeter, other than all examples from Thrace were veiled. Therefore, it seems likely that this coin doesn't come from Thrace, but that doesn't rule it out much. The pattern itself was used across Greek cities from Sicily to the Peloponnese to Asia Minor and into Skythia. The weight of the coin I believe can also rule out Thessaly, which preferred to mint larger coins. The style also doesn't seem consistent with Sicily, so my believe is this comes from Asia Minor. I tried searching through the unidentified coin on the Asia Minor Coins site with no luck. I would be most obliged and grateful if anyone has any idea on an attribution! 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Anthos Posted March 16 · Member Share Posted March 16 (edited) It looks similar to this bronze from Kyzikos, although the size is different... Kyzikos, Mysia 2nd-1st century BC AE19 (19mm, 5.42g) O: Head of Persephone right, wearing wreath of grain. R: KY-ZI above and below monogram, all within oak wreath. Sear 3864; BMC 148 ex Wayne Philips; ex Ancient Imports Persephone I saw a tender maiden plucking flowers Once, long ago, in the bright morning hours; And then from heaven I saw a sudden cloud Fall swift and dark, and heard her cry aloud. Again I looked, but from my open door My anxious eyes espied the maid no more; The cloud had vanished, bearing her away To underlands beyond the smiling day. (From a fragment by Sappho) ~ Peter Edited March 16 by Phil Anthos 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAZ Numismatics Posted March 16 · Member Share Posted March 16 Can you post a few pics of the reverse with lighting from different angles? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 16 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted March 16 29 minutes ago, JAZ Numismatics said: Can you post a few pics of the reverse with lighting from different angles? Once I have the coin in hand, definitely. I also intend to look at it through a loupe, since I've found that often makes the difference in deciphering lettering. FWIW, I did find that there was a city called Lagaria. It was mentioned by Strabo and founded by Phokaians in Lucania near Thourion. Technically, they did mint coins in this area of this size in bronze in the early 4th century (and even late 5th) per an earlier conversation. However, no coinage is known from Lagaria and, if there was coinage, I would expect it to have resembled somewhat that of nearby Thourion/Sybaris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Anthos Posted March 16 · Member Share Posted March 16 It's interesting that the Kyzikos coin I posted was attributed attributed by the dealer to Persephone/wreath, and the wreath sure appears to be grain. Perhaps this coin actually shows Demeter? The op coin seems to have a wreath of laurel, which might suggest Apollo. At least another search option. ~ Peter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Anthos Posted March 16 · Member Share Posted March 16 (edited) 4 minutes ago, kirispupis said: Once I have the coin in hand, definitely. I also intend to look at it through a loupe, since I've found that often makes the difference in deciphering lettering. FWIW, I did find that there was a city called Lagaria. It was mentioned by Strabo and founded by Phokaians in Lucania near Thourion. Technically, they did mint coins in this area of this size in bronze in the early 4th century (and even late 5th) per an earlier conversation. However, no coinage is known from Lagaria and, if there was coinage, I would expect it to have resembled somewhat that of nearby Thourion/Sybaris. I believe the Phokaians founded Velia, yet another search option, although I'd swear this coin is not from Velia. It does say Magna Graecia to me. Edited March 16 by Phil Anthos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 16 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted March 16 1 hour ago, Phil Anthos said: It's interesting that the Kyzikos coin I posted was attributed attributed by the dealer to Persephone/wreath, and the wreath sure appears to be grain. Perhaps this coin actually shows Demeter? The op coin seems to have a wreath of laurel, which might suggest Apollo. It's a good idea to try Persephone, but I searched for her too and came up with nothing. I originally thought the obverse was Apollo, but that also brought nil. 59 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said: I believe the Phokaians founded Velia, yet another search option, although I'd swear this coin is not from Velia. It does say Magna Graecia to me. Velia used an ethnic of YEΛHTΩN, which doesn't appear to fit my coin well. It definitely could be Magna Graecia, and I think I ruled it out too early. Looking a bit more at Lagaria, odds are it would either mimic Thourion or Phokaia. Phokaia minted no bronze coins with Demeter or Persephone AFAIK. They did mint some electrum with Demeter always facing left. It certainly doesn't seem a decent match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Anthos Posted March 17 · Member Share Posted March 17 I meant to say it does not say Magna Graecia to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted March 17 · Supporter Share Posted March 17 (edited) I don't think your coin is demeter - it looks more Seleucid king to me...lalso looks like Thrace maybe Agathocles son of Lysimachos.... https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6844249 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6783032 although lettering on the reverse is not quite right - maybe over-struck or doubled? and neither of these coins has the prominent border of dots on obverse. what's really bothering me is that I feel like I once owned this coin or perhaps even own this coin still... Edited March 17 by Sulla80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAZ Numismatics Posted March 17 · Member Share Posted March 17 Did the seller give a catalog reference for the attribution to Adramyteion? Because AΔPA is a legitimate possibility according to that pic. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted March 17 · Supporter Share Posted March 17 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=377256 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 17 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted March 17 (edited) 12 hours ago, Sulla80 said: I don't think your coin is demeter - it looks more Seleucid king to me...lalso looks like Thrace maybe Agathocles son of Lysimachos.... Thanks! That's very possible, since no city seems to be matching. I don't believe this is Agathokles, though. AFAIK two cities were renamed Agathokleia in his honor - Adramyteion and Maroneia. I have examples of both. I believe the coin you showed is Agathopolis. I have an example from that city, but of a different type. 11 hours ago, JAZ Numismatics said: Did the seller give a catalog reference for the attribution to Adramyteion? Because AΔPA is a legitimate possibility according to that pic. This seller is well known for not giving attributions in these auctions, though numerous times I've seen them give a date range that indicates they know the attribution, but chose not to share it. 🙂 I've purchased many coins from them that were misattributed. I agree that AΔPA is a legitimate possibility, but I've seen no examples from Adramyteion anywhere near this type. 11 hours ago, Sulla80 said: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=377256 The obverse definitely looks similar, though the denomination appears to be larger. Mine is only 10mm. It's a shame they didn't include the reverse. I'm also still not buying the attribution of Adramytion. Edited March 17 by kirispupis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 21 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted March 21 Just an update that I received the coin today and had some time to look at it under a loupe. The following are my observations. The first letter is Λ. That one is very clear. The second letter looks to be either a Δ or an Α. After staring at it for some time and looking at it upside down with the right light, I believe there are three letters and not four. I believe the third letter is an Μ. There does appear to be at least one letter at the bottom right. It appears to be an Ο or a Ω. I therefore believe the first letters spell ΛΑΜ. The two most obvious cities are Lampsakos and Lamia. I'm less inclined towards Lamia because Thessaly wasn't really known for coins this small during this period. Lampsakos seems the most likely since they minted coins with both wreaths and with Demeter. This coin bears significant resemblance, but there's clearly no beard on my obverse. Here's a better version of it. I'll post photos this weekend, but for now I'm leaning towards an unpublished issue of Lampsakos, though I was hoping for something more interesting... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 25 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted March 25 After some more research, I believe the safest estimate is that this is from Lampsakos. The type is similar to the Priapos type mentioned above, though the one thing that makes me hesitant is the figure on the obverse doesn't match any known Lampsakos coinage. However, the ΛΑΜ on the reverse makes it the most likely. Here is my photo of the coin along with my attribution for now. Mysia, Lampsakos 3rd century BCE Æ 10 mm, 1,19 g Obv: Male bust within dotted border Rev: ΛΑΜ within laurel wreath. Monogram(?) below Unpublished 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted March 29 · Member Share Posted March 29 (edited) Artemis and Demeter on the hunt for Persephone. Demeter with long torch. "Where in the Hades is that damn girl?" Athens New Style Tetradrachm c 71/0 BC A real nice bit of artwork. Edited March 30 by NewStyleKing 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Snible Posted March 30 · Member Share Posted March 30 Could it be the same as this coin, which just closed on Aphrodite Art Coins auction? https://www.biddr.com/auctions/aphroditeartcoins/browse?a=4434&l=5273526 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor kirispupis Posted March 30 · Benefactor Author Benefactor Share Posted March 30 6 minutes ago, Ed Snible said: Could it be the same as this coin, which just closed on Aphrodite Art Coins auction? https://www.biddr.com/auctions/aphroditeartcoins/browse?a=4434&l=5273526 Thanks! It's this type, combined with the legend, that pushed me to attribute mine to Lampsakos. However, I don't believe they're the same type. There's clearly no beard on mine, so this isn't Priapos. I believe the highest odds are Demeter, based on the prevalence of the type, but there are definitely other possibilities. The wreath is quite different. Mine looks like laurel IMHO. The leaves are very small and pointed, vs on this one they appear more like ivy and large. I purchased a copy of Dictionary of Greek Coin Inscriptions, though I doubt for this particular case it will be much help. However, I still believe Lampsakos is the most likely attribution, but I'm unsure of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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