An Extremely Interesting Coin of Thourion

[kirispupis]

Recently, I picked up this small bronze that was labeled as Thurium/Thourion.

Lucania, Thourion
443-400 BCE
Æ 11.21mm 0.72g
Obverse: Head of Athena right wearing crested helmet
Reverse: ΘOYP above large T flanked by E-Y
Unpublished? SNG Cop--, BMC--, SNG Munich--, SNG Fitz--, SNG ANS--
Ex Athena Munzen der Antike Munich

 

It was sold as Thurium/Thourion (depending on the spelling you prefer) and I see no reason to dispute that. The city name appears on the top of the reverse and (interestingly) diagonally across the reverse in what appears to be an overstrike. That seems odd to me, since the overstrikes I've seen on bronze coins were for much larger denominations. It wouldn't seem to be worth the effort on a tiny coin like this.

The large 'T' I believe stands for 'Tetartemorion', or 1/4 of an obol or 1/24th of a drachm. A number of cities produced small coinage with such a mark to indicate value. My belief is these were among the first bronze coins minted for these cities, and the mark indicated to people that they should be utilized over the far smaller silver coins that must have been a pain to manage. Since the denomination was small, I expect people would have been more willing to accept this substitution despite the far lower value of the metal.

In terms of a date range for the coin, the seller listed 350-300 BCE. However, I believe it's a bit older. The E-Y flanking the 'T' was also used on Thourion's silver coinage, such as this one. I have not read the research dating that coin, but all listings give a date of 443-400 BCE. Given the similar obverse of Athena and the identical lettering, I'm inclined to date my coin to roughly the same period, though I expect it was during the latter part of that range.

What catches me the most, though, is the counterstrike. Was there an earlier attempt with the city name diagonal to the coin? I found no such coin from searching. This coin itself is unpublished as far as the seller or I can determine. I'm not very familiar with Italian Greek coinage, and I was unable to find any publication that goes into depth on Thourion's bronze coinage, though I'm certain there must be something.

I can only speculate (because this is my coin and it's awesome) that the initial mintage of this coin was unsuccessful because people did not accept it as a replacement of the silver or more likely were confused what the heck this little bronze thing was. They therefore re-minted these coins with the big 'T' to advertise the value. Perhaps that still didn't go over well because this issue is clearly not common. I've yet to find anything else, though I suspect someone mentioned it somewhere.

What led me to purchase this coin, despite being earlier than my typical range, is the possibility it may be among the first bronzes minted. I attempted to research this, but only found various other forums. I did find a mention of Thourion as the earliest minter of bronze coins, but those posts neither provided an example nor any reference arguing for it. I found other mentions of Tissaphernes and Prokles, both of which I have as part of my 10,000 collection. 

I doubt even a study could determine where exactly the first bronzes were minted because any date ranges would overlap. I'd still love to read something on the matter if anyone knows of a reference. However, I do think this may be one of the earliest bronze types at least for Thourion and it appears to be an interesting piece of history in the minting of bronze coinage.

Feel free to post any literature you think is relevant, or any tiny bronze coins or other coins of Thourion/Thurium!

[Phil Anthos]

A very interesting piece. I am only aware of two city-states to issue these 'T' coins, Thurii and Taras, and the EY mark is common at Taras too. The dates are also in range. It could be said that the T represents the city name, especially as both cities were at some point  connected politically. However that is not a very satisfactory conclusion to me.

A mark of denomination? Perhaps, but the size difference between the Thurii and Taras examples is significant, if indeed there is a connection at all. The Taras types also show three pellets which I have always considered a mark of value, and this is seen on other fractionals of Magna Graecia. If that is true then the T becomes even more ambiguous (again, if a connection exists). Oddly D'Andrea states nothing relevant, barely mentioning them at all. But like your specimen the Tarentine coins seemed to be quite short lived. 

Taras, Calabria

425-415 BC AR ¼ Litra (7mm, 0.19g) O: T with three pellets around. R: T with three pellets around. D'Andrea XVII, 267; Vlasto 1191; Cote 182; McGill II, 147; SNG France 1650; HN Italy 853 Very scarce ex Sam Sloat Coins

Edited February 26 by Phil Anthos

[kirispupis]

2 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said:

A very interesting piece. I am only aware of two city-states to issue these 'T' coins, Thurii and Taras, and the EY mark is common at Taras too. 

That's very interesting. I had assumed E-Y was the abbreviation of a magistrate or moneyer. My suspicion is the connection with Taras in a coincidence (a lot of names started with EY) but it may not be. Note that my coin is bronze, while those you mention are silver.

4 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said:

It could be said that the T represents the city name, especially as both cities were at some point  connected politically. However that is not a very satisfactory conclusion to me.

Interestingly, while searching for other examples, I found another example of my coin. That one is labeled as Tegea, which makes sense based on the condition. Given the fact that "Thourion" is written twice on my coin, I'll lean towards attributing mine to Thourion. I suspect this coin is also not Tegea but Thourion. You can see some text above the 'T' that is difficult to make out. That coin is also labeled as unpublished.

I do find it interesting that these two coins are the only Greek bronzes I can find with the large 'T'.

There are cities who minted coins with a 'T' and started with 'T'. However, Thourion did not. It started with a 'Θ'. You can see it just on the left side of the flan on the reverse.

Elis also minted a tetartemorion (AR) using 'T' as the value. Here's an example. Argos also did this.

Tegea also minted AR tetartemorion's with a 'T', which may have stood for the value or the city name (or both). Here's an example.

Corinth also had an AR issue, though perhaps not a tetartemorion.

[Deinomenid]

Re specific literature there's not  much I'm aware of but I would love to be mistaken as it's a bit frustrating. Rutter has some comments on the bronze types of Thurium.  I can't remember the exact source  by it may have been  his essays on Athens in the west, which is a bit of an acquired taste as evidence gets well-flogged for results. But they were, absolutely, early to mint bronze.  May also have been his Historia Nummorum, Italy. Sorry,  just have  it in my notes as  Rutter on Thurium bronze. On dating your coin to as early as 443BC though, that's truly early for a struck western Greek coin, even though Rutter says Thurium was early to bronze. There are some experts  who'd die on hills about that sort of date 🙂 

Kraay's Coinage of Sybaris can be read interchangeably with Thurium for the early coins of the latter/late coins of the former but there's little on bronze.

 

By the way, if you ever want to look these coins up at the BMC, they use  the incredibly specific term of "Thurii Copia" to access the coins. About as unhelpful as you can get!

[Phil Anthos]

Regarding E-Y, this occurs frequently on a number of MG coins, particularly at Taras and usually on the didrachms. I always thought this was an engravers signature as many engravers moved about the region. But the dates are quite varied and that would have been one venerable artisan!

~ Peter 

[kirispupis]

11 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said:

Regarding E-Y, this occurs frequently on a number of MG coins, particularly at Taras and usually on the didrachms. I always thought this was an engravers signature as many engravers moved about the region. But the dates are quite varied and that would have been one venerable artisan!

Again, I'm very new to this space, but an engraver's signature AFAIK would be very unlikely. Typically engravers would make a far less obvious mark such as in the hair or something like that, and I don't know of one on a bronze this small.

From what I have read, these abbreviations are rarely certain and I expect were used for different purposes in different places/times. Some possibilities include:

• Rulers
• Magistrates
• Moneyers
• Mint marks (which mint was used or for a particular batch)
• Uses for the coin

For small bronzes, it's more often for the first three. I doubt that the E-Y across these coins stands for the same person. It seems to me more likely that they were different people whose names all started with EY. This was quite common.

[kirispupis]

22 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

 On dating your coin to as early as 443BC though, that's truly early for a struck western Greek coin, even though Rutter says Thurium was early to bronze. There are some experts  who'd die on hills about that sort of date 🙂 

I also agree it's highly unlikely to be that early. I only placed it between 443 BCE and 400 BCE because that's the range of the similar silver issue. My belief is it's much closer to 400 BCE than 443 BCE, but any restriction of those dates would be arbitrary. FWIW, the bronze coinage of Tissaphernes and Prokles dates to around or slightly before 400 BCE, so that doesn't seem crazy.

Maybe changing it to 425-400 BCE would sound less crazy...

[Phil Anthos]

Taras, Calabria

333-331/30 BC (Period IV - Archidamos and the Third Lucanian War) AR Didrachm (20mm, 7.54g) Signed by the Kal... engraver.  O: Nude horseman right, wearing shield on left arm and holding two spears in left hand, preparing to thrust third spear held in right hand; |- behind, Δ before, ΚΑΛ and Δ below. R: Phalanthos astride dolphin right, holding crested helmet; stars flanking, ΤΑΡΑΣ to left, ΚΑΛ below. D'Andrea XXXII, 657; Vlasto 545; Cote 215; McGill II, 41; Evans IV, H3; HGC I, 794; HN Italy 896; SNG ANS 971; Sear 345 ex Monarch Beach

[kirispupis]

11 minutes ago, Phil Anthos said:

Taras, Calabria

333-331/30 BC (Period IV - Archidamos and the Third Lucanian War) AR Didrachm (20mm, 7.54g) Signed by the Kal... engraver.  O: Nude horseman right, wearing shield on left arm and holding two spears in left hand, preparing to thrust third spear held in right hand; |- behind, Δ before, ΚΑΛ and Δ below. R: Phalanthos astride dolphin right, holding crested helmet; stars flanking, ΤΑΡΑΣ to left, ΚΑΛ below. D'Andrea XXXII, 657; Vlasto 545; Cote 215; McGill II, 41; Evans IV, H3; HGC I, 794; HN Italy 896; SNG ANS 971; Sear 345 ex Monarch Beach

 

There are many silver examples signed by their engravers, but I've only seen a few bronze examples and none this size.

I'm not familiar with the coinage of Taras, but is there research concerning Kal as the engraver? 

[Ursus]

An interesting little coin. I always enjoy your write-ups on small Greek bronzes that are too often ignored!

Here is my one and only coin of Thurium/Thourioi:

Lucania, Thourioi, AR nomos, c. 400–350 BC. Obv: head of Athena r., wearing helmet decorated with Skylla holding oar (?) and pointing. Rev: ΘΟΥΡΙΩΝ; bull butting r.; in exergue, fish r. 21mm, 7.63g. Ref: HN Italy 1800; SNG ANS 1002–14. Ex Rhenumis 11, lot 10005; ex Fritz Taeger collection.

 

[Helvius Pertinax]

Great coin, and nice writeup as well - I certainly wasn't aware that this one is in the run for the oldest bronze coinage!

 

I've recently read a study claiming Tissaphernes coins to be minted during the time he was karanos in Asia, before being replaced with Cyrus the Younger, from 413 to 407. It study also has quite an interesting section on the earliest bronzes, although the general argument against the minting of Tissaphernes' bronze issues around 400-395 fails to convince me entirely. But the theme of the beginning of bronze coinage is an interesting one for sure!

 

Great to know as well, that I am not the only 10.000 collector on here! I've got an upgrade for the man himself recently, Tissaphernes:

 

Achaemenid Empire

Tissaphernes (as karanos, 401-395 BCE) under Artaxerxes II (great king 404-359/8 BCE)

Chalkos, 400-395 BCE, Astyra

Obverse: TIΣΣA, bare bearded head facing right

Reverse: AΣTYPE legend left, next to cult statue of Artemis Astyrene wearing kalathos, legs of throne behind, club on upper right

Ex Leu Numismatik (web auction 27, lot 1011) 10.09.2023, ex collection Gerhard Plankenhorn formed 1960s-2020s 

11.7mm, 1.66g, AE

 

Artaxerxes II also shouldn't be missing, although the coin might be minted later than his reign.

 

Achaemenid Empire

Artaxerxes II (great king 404-359/8 BCE) to Artaxerxes III (great king 359/8-338 BCE) 

Siglos, 375-340 BCE, Sardes (?)

Obverse: great king in "Knielauf" to the right, wearing kandys and crowned with kidaris, carrying bow in left hand and dagger (akinakes) in right; indication of quiver and letter A at shoulder)

Reverse: incuse punch

Ex Leu Numismatik (web auction 27, lot 876) 10.09.2023

14.1mm, 5.55g, AR

 

And I've won another one on Sunday, Pharnabazos (who's name I have apparently typed often enough for my phone to automatically fill it in once I type P, the same goes for Tissaphernes 😅)

 

Achaemenid Empire

Pharnabazos (military commander, 413-374/3 BCE) under Artaxerxes II (great king 404-359/8 BCE)

Stater, 380-374/3 BCE, Tarsos

𐡁𐡏𐡋𐡕𐡓𐡆 ('bltrz' in Aramaic), Baaltars seated left on throne, holding long lotus tipped staff in his right hand

𐡅𐡓𐡍𐡁𐡆 - 𐡊𐡋𐡊 ('frnbz klk' in Aramaic), bearded and draped male bust to left, wearing crested Attic helmet decorated with a volute on the bowl

"Ex" Leu Numismatik (web auction 29, lot 897) 24.02.2024

22 mm, 10.96 g, AR

[CPK]

Very nice coin @kirispupis. It amazes me how they were able to carve such an artistic design onto such a tiny die!

[JimBranson]

8 hours ago, kirispupis said:

In terms of a date range for the coin, the seller listed 350-300 BCE. However, I believe

[kirispupis]

1 minute ago, JimBranson said:

Given the seller lists the coin as "unpublished", my date range is just as arbitrary as his. At least in mine I'm basing it off a similar silver type.

Bertolami was a bit broader with their coin. They listed it as "late 5th-4th century BCE".

[Phil Anthos]

This coin from Thurii recently sold at Praefectus, and with the reverse monogram I thought it might be relevant here...

Lucania, Thourioi, c. 280-213 BC. Æ 16 mm. 3.1 gm. Obv: Laureate head of Apollo l. Rev: Winged thunderbolt; monogram below. HNItaly 1927; SNG Copenhagen 1509.

[kirispupis]

On 2/26/2024 at 9:49 AM, Deinomenid said:

 On dating your coin to as early as 443BC though, that's truly early for a struck western Greek coin, even though Rutter says Thurium was early to bronze. There are some experts  who'd die on hills about that sort of date 🙂 

Actually, based on some more research, a date closer to 443 BCE doesn't seem far fetched. I recently found this article. What's intriguing is there was a sale of a Sybaris bronze at an NAC auction. Brousseau goes into the history to show that this bronze must have been minted between 446 and 444 BCE based on the history of Sybaris and its relation with Athens.

Essentially, Sybaris became Thurium. It would therefore make sense that Thurium would continue to mint bronzes and the author mentions a bronze type very similar to the Sybarite coin, differing only in the name. Therefore, bronzes should have been minted by Thurium from 444 BCE or shortly thereafter.

My coin is not the type mentioned, though it does share the same obverse. However, since it shares the same E-Y as the silver coinage from the period, it seems logical to me that Brousseau's Thurium bronze example and mine were likely minted around the same time since they were different denominations.

[Deinomenid]

1 hour ago, kirispupis said:

Sybaris became Thurium

Fun fact, this is disputed for supernatural reasons***, but as I said  earlier Kraay's Coinage of Sybaris can be read interchangeably with Thurium for the early coins of the latter/late coins of the former, so there is a clear continuum at least  initially before the falling out. And that Rutter thinks Thurium was very early to strike  bronze. So yes, I agree and think possible that they minted bronze soon after they were founded. The likelihood of this coin being super-early is probably not high but if  it were I'd be delighted for you.

There are some stormy debates  on other sites about all this so  to take your coin and date it early  is bold,  so  I hope fortune favours you!

On the specific coin  you mention from NAC, they are ultra-reputable and Russo said he is best who makes fewest mistakes, but for some reason it has been not widely  included  in analyses. I don't  know if it is because  it is specifically disputed or just seen as puzzling that there's only one.  I own a very rare coin that is extremely similar to the one you  show except silver, of the exact same assumed date (NAC's dating is a real assumption btw as it could be said to  be a little later). It's the same basic "message" though in Athena  head,  bull (nod to Sybaris) to right,  head to left.  Here, with a slightly longer ethnic -

 

 

***Sybaris I-IV though not V is really confusing not  just because of the difficult archeology notwithstanding  Diodorus' site claim but also because of the usual conflicting accounts. It was said though that there were religious reasons the city was not rebuilt exactly where S1 was, which are based on stories of deprecatory rites care of Kroton. This has been somewhat backed by the fact that Perikles sent Lampon as one of his two cofounders  of Thurium, with the suggestion being that they needed a soothsayer/oracle interpreter to help against those rites. All a bit odd/unnerving!

Just re the French article, he pushes his dates a bit to fit his thesis, pushing Rutter early on Rhegion! Which made me think, why  not ask him? Rutter,  not the independent researcher 🙂. He's definitely in favour of an early date and I hope that's right.

https://www.ed.ac.uk/profile/keith-rutter

 

Good luck!

[kirispupis]

15 minutes ago, Deinomenid said:

Which made me think, why  not ask him? Rutter,  not the independent researcher 🙂. He's definitely in favour of an early date and I hope that's right.

https://www.ed.ac.uk/profile/keith-rutter

This is a good idea, so I sent him an email and I hope he has time to respond. While I'd love for this to be proclaimed one of the earliest bronze coins, I'm really just trying to learn as much as possible. I'm not going to be heartbroken if Rutter comes back that it's a 3rd century bronze. Clearly the coin is rare and that's really what attracted me to it.

I'd also love to uncover more information on the overstrike. Which type was overstruck? I did have an epiphany that the inscription underneath is Sybaris and not Thurium, which would make my coin super-awesome, but no matter which way I look at it I see "Thourion". 😞 It still makes me wonder though. Why would anyone bother to restrike such a tiny bronze?

In terms of the age, the style of Athena and the E-Y certainly point to somewhere between 444-400 BCE AFAICT. The real question is whether it's closer to the earlier or latter part of that range.

BTW, that's a gorgeous example of Sybaris!

[Ryro]

Cool new (slightly used) coin @kirispupis! Very interesting subject. One that most of us have pondered, but one that seems unknowable.

Here is a very rare coin I have from Thurium. Might not be the oldest, but sure is pretty to look at:

LUCANIA, Thurium as Copia (193-150 BCE) AE As. 9.40g, 22mm.
Obv: Laureate head of Janus
Rev: COPIA in right field; Cornucopia, caduceus and I (mark of value) in left field.
HN Italy 1935. Very rare. cf. CNG E-Auction 374, 11.05.2016, lot 9 (hammer 260 USD); same dies as NAC Auction 84, 20.05.2015, lot 564 (hammer 2250 CHF)
Very rare and in fine style.

Purchased from AMCC3 July 2021

[Phil Anthos]

Thurii, Lucania

300-280 BC AR Didrachm (21mm, 7.67g) O: Head of Athena right, wearing crested Attic helmet ornamented with Skylla hurling a stone. R: Bull butting right; ΘOYPIΩN and ΘE above, tunny fish in ex. SNG ANS 1081; HN Italy 1870; Sear 443v (no inscription on exergual line) From the Frederick H. Rindge collection; ex Jack H. Beymer Rising from the ruins of New Sybaris, Thurii was originally planned by Perikles of Athens as a Greek utopia. Scientists, artists, poets and philosophers from all over the Greek mainland were encouraged to immigrate to southern Italy around 443 BC to help establish this new city tucked against the mountains between two rivers on the west coast of the Tarentine Gulf. Among those accepting the challenge was Herodotus, who finished his ‘Histories’ here before his death in 420. The sophist Protagoras of Abdera also came, and was commissioned to write the new city’s democratic constitution. However this idea of a peaceful colony of free-thinkers was destined to be short-lived. By 413 BC the colony was at war with mother-city Athens, and in 390 Thourii suffered a significant defeat by the Lucanians. In response the Thurians called in help from Rome to deal with this threat, and then again in 282 for its’ war with Taras. The city was plundered by Hannibal of Carthage during the second Punic war, who left it in ruin.

[antwerpen2306]

@Phil Anthos : This coin from Thurii recently sold at Praefectus, and with the reverse monogram I thought it might be relevant here...

The city'name is on the top : Thourioi, the monogram is T H = tau êta, not an abbreviation of Thourioi.

[Phil Anthos]

Of course not, but it is similar to the mark on the op coin, which also has the ethnic.

~ Peter 

[antwerpen2306]

@kirispupis maybe good news : your bronze coin can be Sambon,Thourioi,44. : his description : 

obverse : head of Pallas, T in the field. He never reports other inscriptions for bronze coins, so without looking, this is maybe your coin. I think in more recent books, It is possible to find more references. It is in French, but maybe you can translate it.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://ia601309.us.archive.org/32/items/recherchessurle00sambgoog/recherchessurle00sambgoog.pdf

[kirispupis]

1 hour ago, antwerpen2306 said:

@kirispupis maybe good news : your bronze coin can be Sambon,Thourioi,44. : his description : 

obverse : head of Pallas, T in the field. He never reports other inscriptions for bronze coins, so without looking, this is maybe your coin. I think in more recent books, It is possible to find more references. It is in French, but maybe you can translate it.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://ia601309.us.archive.org/32/items/recherchessurle00sambgoog/recherchessurle00sambgoog.pdf

Thanks! (I'm can read French :)) This does sound at least like a very similar coin. There's no mention of an E-Y and no plate AFAICT. Sambon agrees with Brousseau that the earliest Thurium bronzes appeared at the time of the city's foundation from Sybaris and thus are among the earliest bronze coins. This coin he places between 389 BCE to the mid 4th century based on the understanding that's when bronze coins began to replace the silver issues.