Künker announcement: no more shipments of group lots to USA

[DonnaML]

If you live in the USA and are ever interested in purchasing group lots from auctions held by Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG in Osnabrück, Germany in  the future, you're out of luck. Künker has appended an announcement to every group lot description in their upcoming auction, stating: "Due to the U.S. customs regulations that requires a detailed individual listing of all coins from the lot, shipping to the USA is unfortunately not possible."

One wonders how many other auction houses outside the USA will follow suit because they decide that individually listing each coin in each group lot, sufficient to satisfy USA Customs requirements, isn't worth their time.

[robinjojo]

Bummer!  In the past I received some really nice group lots from Roma - some rally good buys there.  

I guess CNG and other US auction houses and dealers will hence forth be the only group lot sources for US collectors.🙁

[AETHER]

Can't you still provide a "individual listing of all coins" that are just in one box? 

[John Conduitt]

How detailed does it need to be for US customs? For most lots of a dozen coins or so, auction houses usually give a description of some sort, even if it's '4th century Roman bronzes'. There will be a price too, which is what US customs want to know.

Obviously, in Kunker's case, they love selling trays of coins like they couldn't even be bothered to unpack them.

[DonnaML]

30 minutes ago, AETHER said:

Can't you still provide a "individual listing of all coins" that are just in one box? 

I'm sure you could, but they just don't want to bother.

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

If someone here on Numisforums is very interested in a certain lot, he just has to know a friend collector living in Canada who can receive the package and then reship it across the border…😉 

Edited February 13 by Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

[Prieure de Sion]

12 hours ago, DonnaML said:

If you live in the USA and are ever interested in purchasing group lots from auctions held by Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG in Osnabrück, Germany in  the future, you're out of luck. Künker has appended an announcement to every group lot description in their upcoming auction, stating: "Due to the U.S. customs regulations that requires a detailed individual listing of all coins from the lot, shipping to the USA is unfortunately not possible."

One wonders how many other auction houses outside the USA will follow suit because they decide that individually listing each coin in each group lot, sufficient to satisfy USA Customs requirements, isn't worth their time.

 

I can tell you that it is more due to the general difficulties that are increasing more and more.

Customs - in major countries - are becoming ever more nervous and precise when it comes to ancient coins. If something small is wrong or unclear, the import will be stopped immediately. In the past, customs waved through a lot of things - today a little thing is enough and it is stopped immediately.

And it's just getting worse every month.

 

Today (!) I am receiving a delivery from Roma Numismatik (there are also 2 groups of lots in the shipment), which I bought at auction on September 28, 2023. Until 3 days ago the status was that customs wanted to confiscate the shipment. With a lot of effort I have now got the shipment released! Still questions?

And when I send something to my customers, it no longer happens every 1-2 months that I have to add something to a shipment. Currently there is at least one shipment every week where I have to submit documents and justifications to customs because the export has been stopped.

 

Things are really getting worse every week with the import/export of ancient coins.

Of course, some people will now say, strange, I didn't have any problems with my delivery. Yes, if you get a delivery once a month, you might not notice. But the auction houses and dealers like me who receive and ship goods every day notice it clearly! There is a significant, extremely significant increase in problems at customs!

 

That's why I understand Künker - and many companies will follow suit, I can assure you!

That's probably why I'll be giving up my shop in the coming weeks and months. It is simply too high a financial risk for me to lose expensive coins in customs. If the customer doesn't get the coin, I have to pay him back the money. And my shipping insurance will not cover any confiscation by customs. The money is gone.

[Roman Collector]

The only time I ever ran into a customs issue was when I ordered a group lot from Savoca some five years ago. Customs called me on the phone and asked me what was in the package and I told them the truth: about a hundred low-value ancient Roman coins that I purchased for 65 Euro total. I said it worked out to about 70 cents each. The agent was satisfied with that and released the package that day. 

[Prieure de Sion]

25 minutes ago, Roman Collector said:

five years ago

... and the times will be changed.

I also hear what other "colleagues" are reporting - and it really seems as if the authorities are falling into a kind of "actionism" this year and are monitoring very closely and also partially keeping the broadcasts.

 

By the way, while I wrote about the case with my Roma package in the post above, a letter came to me today from the main customs office.

It is a shipment with an Octavian Denarius.

I should give an explanation where this denarius comes from. Why I bought it, where from, why, why. What I want to do with it and so on.

The next coin/shipment is now stuck in customs.

😞 

[Prieure de Sion]

https://www.culture.gouv.fr/Thematiques/Circulation-des-biens-culturels/Pour-les-professionnels/Comment-soumettre-une-demande-d-autorisation-d-exportation 

And the next information i get from a friendly france auction house.

 

The French authorities are now increasingly controlling the export of antique goods. 

In our case this means - antique coins over a value of 1,500 euros OR if an antique coin leaves the EU (USA, Canada etc - no matter what value) must have an export permit from the French authorities! Means. I in Germany need the papers from the seller for a value of 1,500 euros or more. If someone from the USA buys an antique coin in France, they definitely need an export permit - regardless of the value of the goods.

However, it is like in Spain and Italy too. Jesus Vico / Aureo Calico - as an example - needs about 6 weeks for shipping because both apply for the real legal Spanish papers. But we all here also know other Spanish sellers who send the coins immediately - without real documents.

 

So if you buy/auction coins in France worth over 1,500 euros OR outside the EU, you should speak to the French seller about it. There is a risk of very high penalties or confiscation of the goods!

By the way, the French papers take longer than the Spanish authorities. You wait up to 4 months for the French papers.

 

Quote

In case of export of the lot purchased and pursuant to the applicable regulations regarding the protection of cultural goods, coins that are dated prior to 1500 and that are assessed at over €1,500 are subject to a cultural good certificate, or in case of export outside of the European Union an authorisation of export of a cultural good delivered by the French Ministry of culture

 

 

Edited February 14 by Prieure de Sion

[DonnaML]

@Prieure de Sion, I believe that you (or the person who gave you this information) are  misreading the definitions and causing people unnecessary worry. The 1,500 Euro value threshold applies to coins from earlier than AD 1500 before they meet the definition of a cultural good and an export permit is required, regardless of whether the export is to a country within or outside the EU. See the comparative tables found at the link. In my opinion, the quotation you provide  says nothing to support your assertion.

Edited February 14 by DonnaML

[Prieure de Sion]

59 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

I believe that you (or the person who gave you this information) are  misreading the definitions and causing people unnecessary worry. The 1,500 Euro value threshold applies to coins from earlier than AD 1500 before they meet the definition of a cultural good and an export permit is required, regardless of whether the export is to a country within or outside the EU. See the comparative tables found at the link. In my opinion, the quotation you provide  says nothing to support your assertion.

Yes... nothing else i said... our ancient coins are BEFORE 1500 AD ... or?

Before 1500 AD and more 1.500 Euro. 

 

 

 

Quote

Bonsoir Monsieur Weiss,

 

Permettez moi de revenir sur la lecture du texte, il est indiqué:

1. Que les monnaies biens culturels frappées avant l'année 1500 doivent, si leur valeur est supérieure à 1 500€, pour sortir de France être munie d'un certificat de libre circulation.
2. Qu'en cas exportation en dehors de la CEE, elle doivent en plus être soumise à un certificat d'exportation.

Bien entendu l'Allemagne, membre de la CEE, n'est pas concernée par le point 2 mais uniquement par le point 1.

 

Si d'autres maisons françaises ne respectent pas ces obligations légales et ne demandent pas les certificats, elles prennent le risque d'être pénalisées.

 

[DonnaML]

14 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Yes... nothing else I said... our ancient coins are BEFORE 1500 AD ... or?

Before 1500 AD and more than 1,500 Euro. 

 

 

 

 

You specifically said earlier that exporting ancient coins outside the EU requires a permit "regardless of value." As you now appear to concede, that was not true. The only difference between exporting inside and outside the EU is that the latter requires further authorization, but only IF it exceeds the value threshold. 

Edited February 14 by DonnaML

[DonnaML]

1 hour ago, DonnaML said:

You specifically said earlier that exporting ancient coins outside the EU requires a permit "regardless of value." As you now appear to concede, that was not true. The only difference between exporting inside and outside the EU is that the latter requires further authorization, but only IF it exceeds the value threshold. 

By the way, I bought one ancient coin at the recent Burgan auction, spending quite a bit less than 1,500 Euros. Obviously, Burgan is well aware of the export permit rules, and would have notified me if one were necessary. They have given me no such notification, or otherwise indicated in communicating with me that any delay in shipping my lot will be necessary in order to obtain an export permit.

[Prieure de Sion]

16 hours ago, DonnaML said:

You specifically said earlier that exporting ancient coins outside the EU requires a permit "regardless of value." As you now appear to concede, that was not true. The only difference between exporting inside and outside the EU is that the latter requires further authorization, but only IF it exceeds the value threshold. 

Then I misunderstood - English and French are not my native languages.

But that doesn't change the fact that the restrictions for us as collectors of ancient coins are increasing. It is becoming increasingly difficult for us to exchange/trade and collect coins across countries.