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Are these coins genuine?


Tejas

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The three coins below are currently offered in an auction by a respectable auction house. However, to me these coins don't look right. The coins are rare nummi of Ricimer, Anthemius and Odovacar. 

I think the style of these coins is odd and it even looks as if the same person has cut the dies for all three and in particular the last two coins. What do people think?

 

1.PNG

2.PNG

3.PNG

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I am almost certain they are fake. Seem to be the evolution of the Emporium Hamburg with a twist of 2014-15 ebay fantasy Germanic and late Roman (Eraric monogram AE4 and invented siliquae of the likes of Sebastianus etc).

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47 minutes ago, Finn235 said:

Style reminds me a bit of the Emporium Hamburg fakes from a few years ago

27 minutes ago, seth77 said:

Seem to be the evolution of the Emporium Hamburg

I don't know enough to give a confident opinion, but it's funny that we're all thinking the same thing! They poisoned that part of the market and became a cautionary tale...

I was going to say, check the old listings of Emporium Hamburg in ACSearch and see if that's where any of these came from. I've seen their little AE4 ultra-rarities get filtered into other auctions without the E.H. provenance recorded, mixed in with a collector's other stuff. E.H. has very distinctive photography, so they become less recognizable sometimes when photographed elsewhere, unless you look for it. The new seller may not even know.

Edited by Curtis JJ
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This is where I noticed the general of these: https://www.lateromanbronzecoinforum.com/index.php/topic,389.msg937.html#msg937. The ones from CGB look better but I think that they are more advanced products of the same or very similar forgery operation, counting on the consideration that style and texture is not really something that people observe in these grotty AE4s or even siliquae of the 5th early 6th century.

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54 minutes ago, panzerman said:

CGBfr. usually is very reliable auction house/ I have gotten many excellent coins from them.

Yes, I would like to stress that CGB is a respectable auction house. If the coins are fakes, it is an untypical lapsus.

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1 minute ago, Tejas said:

Yes, I would like to stress that CGB is a respectable auction house. If the coins are fakes, it is an untypical lapsus.

They are certainly very reputable, but are these types really within their primary areas of expertise? 

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53 minutes ago, Tejas said:

Yes, I would like to stress that CGB is a respectable auction house. If the coins are fakes, it is an untypical lapsus.

Emporium Hamburg was also considered to be trustworthy, and unfortunately many of their fakes ended up getting their provenance whitewashed by consignment them through other auction houses.

Here's an example of two "Julius Nepos" AE4s that I put together last time this came up on CTZomboDroid04042022110922.jpg.cae0ad556bff2da1f3bfb0832617bd0e.jpg

Left is E.H., right is CNG:

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=329426

Makes me sick to think about the damage they did to the hobby.

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To @DonnaML's point, cgb used to be a real go-to place for later medievals, c. Carolingian to wherever your wanted to end.  Then, one day, it was as if their main expert summarily left the firm; the inventory itself went down the drain.  ...And if I may use an indifferently charitable word, this series is more arcane than any of that material.  I'd want to be very confident that they were really well versed in it --for instance, at the level of @Tejas him- /yourself.

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9 hours ago, Tejas said:

The three coins below are currently offered in an auction by a respectable auction house. However, to me these coins don't look right. The coins are rare nummi of Ricimer, Anthemius and Odovacar. 

I think the style of these coins is odd and it even looks as if the same person has cut the dies for all three and in particular the last two coins. What do people think?

 

1.PNG

2.PNG

3.PNG

Lol I saw these three also and I thought, “No way CGB believes these are authentic. They must have made a mistake.”

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Several days ago they also listed on VCoins a crude tourist type copy of a Hasmonean prutah, and when I messaged them about it they asked me why I think it is not real 🤡. Their authenticity expert is probably on vacation 😂.

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CGB.fr is a certainly reputable company. Still, they, like essentially all big deallers are not immute of mistakes and fakes do slip into their inventory.

A few example for Anastasius - from dies widely accepted and published as not genuine. Note. None of these are my coins and I have not examined them myself.

MONNAIES 28. 25/01/2007. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=354777

image.png.0d9d399a22406a06eea2ab6b633e1146.png

 

Live Auction Mars 2018. 06/03/2018. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5066623

image.jpeg.423316aaf6c93d2e39f5d6257947364e.jpeg

 

Internet Auction October 2020. 27/10/2020. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7458577

image.jpeg.9ffdeb46bc9b6d3f04b6afe0cdb5d2cf.jpeg

 

MONNAIES 28. 25/01/2007. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=354778

image.jpeg.1d9087310f25dca7f8fc305ec2926863.jpeg

 

MONNAIES 28. 25/01/2007. https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=354779

image.jpeg.7f309dec15d2a0fe360a7d10a610ade2.jpeg

 

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12 hours ago, Finn235 said:

Emporium Hamburg was also considered to be trustworthy, and unfortunately many of their fakes ended up getting their provenance whitewashed by consignment them through other auction houses.

Here's an example of two "Julius Nepos" AE4s that I put together last time this came up on CTZomboDroid04042022110922.jpg.cae0ad556bff2da1f3bfb0832617bd0e.jpg

Left is E.H., right is CNG:

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=329426

Makes me sick to think about the damage they did to the hobby.

It is shocking to see that CNG thought that this was genuine.

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3 hours ago, Tejas said:

It is shocking to see that CNG thought that this was genuine.

In truth, I've reached the point where I have very serious doubts that Julius Nepos monogram AE4s are even a legitimate type that existed. Looking on ACSearch, I see this one that *might* be real, but the overall refined style gives me significant pause:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1645495

The rest? 80% are EH fakes, and the rest are either matches to the fakes, or obviously misattributed coins 🤮

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=Julius+nepos+AE+monogram&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&currency=usd&order=0

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1 hour ago, Finn235 said:

I've reached the point where I have very serious doubts that Julius Nepos monogram AE4s are even a legitimate type

Do I think those three pieces are genuine. No. Perfectly centered with sharp monograms and portraits. That's a warning sign right there.

Do I think that there are genuine Nepos monograms. Yep. I've seen some and I have one that I pulled out of an uncleaned lot about 25+ years ago. It is a struck coin, not cast, and it looks exactly like other types of the period, Here it is (10.3mm, 1.0gms):

JuliusNeposMonogram3.jpg.e33d16cfa753504de3f4581f0ce12a22.jpg

 

Edited by O-Towner
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3 hours ago, O-Towner said:

Do I think those three pieces are genuine. No. Perfectly centered with sharp monograms and portraits. That's a warning sign right there.

Do I think that there are genuine Nepos monograms. Yep. I've seen some and I have one that I pulled out of an uncleaned lot about 25+ years ago. It is a struck coin, not cast, and it looks exactly like other types of the period, Here it is (10.3mm, 1.0gms):

JuliusNeposMonogram3.jpg.e33d16cfa753504de3f4581f0ce12a22.jpg

 

That's good news and looks promising - I hope I was just being too skeptical!

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Just to add on a bit to the Nepos monogram, both he and Zenonis were issuing coins at the same time, around 475 AD. Here's a pic of my Nepos monogram (on left) and a Zenonis monogram (on right). Note the similarities, with the only difference being a "P" loop at the top left of the Nepos and a "Z" at the top left of the Zenonis. In fact on my Nepos you can still make out the remains of the 45 degree central connecting line of the Z. It may be circumstantial but it sure looks like they just modified the Zenonis monogram to create the Nepos monogram.

NeposZenonisMonograms.jpg.124b43a6eb87b2aa017f87193b449984.jpg

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