filolif Posted January 23 · Member Share Posted January 23 Continuing a discussion from the Athenian Owl facebook group, here is a comparison of several owl tetradrachms, one of which we believe to be the host coin, and three of which seem to be cast fakes. I share this in hopes that people will be able to identify and call out more cast fakes when they see them. There are a number of forged owl tetradrachms that are trying to filter into the market and its important to be vigilant to avoid buying one of the fakes. The Leu coin (sold 2018) seems to be a real coin, the other 3 including the Roma one that is in their latest E-sale, appear to be cast forgeries. Beware of fakes out there! 12 9 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted January 23 · Member Share Posted January 23 (edited) I wonder who bought the host coin..is he the forger? Provenance would certainly score here! I wonder if there's a simple way of looking for previous examples taken from the likely host coin, cos if their aint, maybe we have a smoking crucible here! Edited January 23 by NewStyleKing 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filolif Posted January 23 · Member Author Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, NewStyleKing said: I wonder who bought the host coin..is he the forger? Provenance would certainly score here! I wonder if there's a simple way of looking for previous examples taken from the likely host coin, cos if their aint, maybe we have a smoking crucible here! I have emailed Leu about this very thing. I don't expect to hear back but it's completely in their court to follow up and try to determine if that's the case. We won't ever have access to the buyer's information. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_spork Posted January 23 · Member Share Posted January 23 1 minute ago, filolif said: I have emailed Leu about this very thing. I don't expect to hear back but it's completely in their court to follow up and try to determine if that's the case. We won't ever have access to the buyer's information. It's not uncommon for cast fakes to make it to market years after the host coin specifically to make it harder to tell where they're coming from and also because the host coin is likely to sell for a lower price if some people see the casts and think it might be one and the forgers rarely want to devalue their own coins. I'd say it's equally likely the Leu 2018 consignor is making these forgeries, for whatever that's worth. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filolif Posted January 23 · Member Author Share Posted January 23 30 minutes ago, red_spork said: It's not uncommon for cast fakes to make it to market years after the host coin specifically to make it harder to tell where they're coming from and also because the host coin is likely to sell for a lower price if some people see the casts and think it might be one and the forgers rarely want to devalue their own coins. I'd say it's equally likely the Leu 2018 consignor is making these forgeries, for whatever that's worth. Right, it would be hard to determine if it was the buyer, the consignor or some other third party. I think if Leu cared, they might be able to start putting together enough details to discover any pattern that might emerge. If it was me and my reputation was on the line, I'd want to know if my customers were doing things like this and stop working with them. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted January 23 · Supporter Share Posted January 23 I tried to sleuth a Taras fake from a UK sale to a continental fake that happened within a few months (I'm not being coy about the names- I have forgotten, but posted it quite a while ago.) It was much harder than I thought because I just assumed the person who bought the UK coin was the forger, but as @red_spork says it was definitely possible it was someone else, and if anyone else then most likely the original owner. I'd need to see a pattern over time to be sure. And I could not discern one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted January 24 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted January 24 I agree that the first coin is very likely the host or seed coin. The three others show soft cracks around the edges. Indeed they are partially filled in because of the inability of a casting mold to completely replicate the edge cracks created when metal splits under the stress of a hammer blow. Thanks for spotting these fakes! It sure is disconcerting that these coins slipped by some major firms. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filolif Posted January 24 · Member Author Share Posted January 24 Good news, the lot in Roma’s current E-sale has been withdrawn. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajax Posted January 24 · Member Share Posted January 24 It is obvious that an imprint was taken before it was photographed by the first auction. The forger is basically the person who consigned the cast coins to cng and Roma. I would not be surprised if it is the same person who consigned the original to the first auction. It's pretty easy to find out who this is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted January 24 · Member Share Posted January 24 It is obvious that an imprint was taken before it was photographed by the first auction. The forger is basically the person who consigned the cast coins to cng and Roma. I would not be surprised if it is the same person who consigned the original to the first auction. It's pretty easy to find out who this is. Really? Do tell or investigate...who said coins are boring! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted January 24 · Supporter Share Posted January 24 3 hours ago, ajax said: It's pretty easy to find out who this is. This is the problem - it is not easy. Good luck and please let us know as I've hit brick walls of plausible deniabilty when I've tried to unearth this sort of thing. If the original consigner can be demonstrated somehow to have held the coin for a long time it makes it easier, but you need the cooperation of several parties to get a name. And the coordination of auction houses to blacklist a name or at least publish coins from their past sales that were connected and at risk. That's most unlikely to happen. A spirit of friendly cooperation between houses is not something I've come across much but it would be almost essential here. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonW Posted January 25 · Member Share Posted January 25 (edited) These belong to a run of cast forgeries produced in Turkey. Here are some more: Edited January 25 by SimonW 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun96 Posted January 25 · Member Share Posted January 25 Another one Fake: Host: 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filolif Posted January 31 · Member Author Share Posted January 31 (edited) Just received a response from the Chief Numismatist of Leu -- Lars Rutten. He says that the original 2018 coin from my post was actually stolen from them in 2018 in a burglary. This is likely how it ended up with a forger. He also included several more examples of forgery that he says were purchased by a "longstanding and serious collector". (These were also posted by @Kaleun96 above.) Therefore he believes the cast was made prior to the coin being consigned with Leu. It does sound like they try to follow up and discover any connections that might exist to track down people forging coins that are purchased from them. He says these are great targets for forgers because people don't tend to look super closely at lower grade owls, especially since the hoard was found. Less scrutiny, more profit for them. I definitely agree. Keep an eye out for these and other forgeries like the ones @Kaleun96 posted! Edited January 31 by filolif 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted January 31 · Member Share Posted January 31 Just shows you how the very common mass classic owl is very popular. It's a good job hoards are found regularly to satisfy the apparent insatiable thirst! I wonder what else was burgled? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted January 31 · Supporter Share Posted January 31 57 minutes ago, NewStyleKing said: I wonder what else was burgled? They had 600 coins stolen. They kept a list up for a while but took it down - goodness knows why. https://leunumismatik.com/9382hf3wj98fcwq0u721sdcc?fbclid=IwAR3on9em-vwoBLkbl6zQl_tGrOqKZv-psy-qjvvukCtnpuuupb9DAkJOzSo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted February 2 · Supporter Share Posted February 2 @filolif I hope this is somewhat related but I was told there are copies of imitative Arabian Athens owls "available" at the moment and also saw similar on the German forums where they highlight Savoca as selling what appear to be Identical copies. These - https://www.biddr.com/auctions/savoca/browse?a=4266&l=5045169 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/savoca/browse?a=4266&l=5045168 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filolif Posted February 2 · Member Author Share Posted February 2 11 hours ago, Deinomenid said: @filolif I hope this is somewhat related but I was told there are copies of imitative Arabian Athens owls "available" at the moment and also saw similar on the German forums where they highlight Savoca as selling what appear to be Identical copies. These - https://www.biddr.com/auctions/savoca/browse?a=4266&l=5045169 https://www.biddr.com/auctions/savoca/browse?a=4266&l=5045168 Those do appear to be identical. Not good. I’m always wary of imitations for just this reason. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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