ambr0zie Posted January 6 · Member Share Posted January 6 Since I always thought that Alexandria is one of the most interesting provinces when it comes to coinage, one of my numismatic goals this year is to concentrate more on Alexandrian coins, especially 1st and 2nd centuries. I like the portrait styles and the reverses themes. I have a few clearly defined targets. And one of the targets was the common and popular Nero and Poppaea tetradrachm, minted between year 9 (62-63) and year 12 (65-66). I managed to get one I stalked for a few days. The price is not great, not terrible, the coin is good with one thing that bothers me (I will elaborate more) and one thing that attracted me a lot but is still unclear (I will also elaborate) 1. the bad part. The reverse is poorly centered and the missing part was quite important - the date. Usually I do not buy coins where full attribution is uncertain due to wear/centering. I made an exception (and you will see the reason on point 2). But now trying to make some efforts to identify this coin precisely is even more difficult than it seems. Here is the list of Nero and Poppaea tetradrachms (5 coins) https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/search/browse?volume_id=&number=&city_id=12®ion_id=&province_id=&subprovince_id=&issue_id=&reign_id=&obverse_inscription_simplified=&reverse_inscription_simplified=&obverse_design=nero&reverse_design=poppaea&metal_id=&weight_min=&weight_max=&diameter_min=&diameter_max=&format= and a schematics of my investigation. First coin can be safely excluded. Many differences, Nero is laureate there, so it's clearly impossible. I would also exclude the last, that is a major rarity and there is only 1 known example. I know this is not a proof but as checked in several examples with good centering, the year 10 examples (LI) have the date starting in a similar position to mine. The year 11 examples - RPC 5280 - LIA - have it a little closer to the edge. But I know this is not a good proof. What bothers me is something else - what is the difference between "radiate head of Nero, right" and "radiate head of Nero with 'steps' hairstyle, right"? I hope a specialist would help as I checked all the examples I could find and I can't spot the difference. RPC I, 5275 and 5280 are "normal" and 5282 is with steps. I tried to understand from acsearch examples, this simply beats me. 5280 is year 11 "without" steps and 5282 is also year 11 with steps. I suspect my coin is 5275 - LI - but if it is, by any chance, with steps, it would be LIA, 5282 and the date is clarified. 2. the (possible) good part. When I was browsing through auctions looking for a Nero and Poppaea tetradrachm from Alexandria, I initially wanted to skip this one because, like I mentioned, I avoid coins with this kind of uncertainty. But I noticed something very intriguing. Check Poppaea's name, on a normal coin and on mine. I already discussed this with 2 well known forum colleagues who confirmed my assumption is most likely correct. There is a very big chance that the engraver made an error and wrote the name incorrectly. With a double Π at the beginning of the name. It's the only explanation I can think of - the "first letter" cannot be part of the date, or damage, or anything else. I know that errors on ancient coins are nothing extraordinary, but I've never seen something similar with Alexandrian coins. Am I wrong with this finding? I also searched for similar examples - none found. I would really like some opinions, as both points are intriguing - point 1 is just my curiosity as I really want to understand the thing about steps hairstyle. 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali Posted January 6 · Member Share Posted January 6 Poppaea (63 - 65 A.D.) Billon tetradrachm O: NEPΩ KΛAY KAIΣ ΣEB ΓEP AY, radiate head right. R.ΠOΠΠAIA ΣEBAΣTH, draped bust of Poppaea right, date LI right (year 10). Alexandria mint 63 - 64 A.D. 12.5g 25mm Milne 216, Curtis 132, RPC I 5275, Geissen 157 Ex. Harlen J. Berk 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryro Posted January 6 · Supporter Share Posted January 6 I'm inclined to think it's an error. Though, the early style year split is an intriguing idea. Hopefully we can find a obverse die match to answer the question. Here's my busted, LI, Poppaea with a particularly grumpy looking Nero: 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted January 6 · Member Author Share Posted January 6 Frankly I exclude the year split because the only year when this format was used has a laureate Nero. Now I am quite puzzled by this "steps hairstyle". I really don't get the difference and what I understand by this term does not fit with Nero's hairstyles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted January 6 · Member Share Posted January 6 (edited) Have you checked for another coin struck with that error? A Poppaea-side die-match on a better centered coin would also date your coin with some certainty. Edited January 6 by seth77 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted January 6 · Member Author Share Posted January 6 (edited) That was my first thought as well 😕 but none found. I mentioned this. I see 4 options regarding the error - damage (I doubt it) - optical illusion (same) - what looks like the first P is in fact something else (same) - legend error. This is the most plausible explanation, but not finding a match doesn't help. Another thing that might clarify is this blessed "steps hairstyle" detail but this really gives me a large headache. Edited January 6 by ambr0zie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth77 Posted January 7 · Member Share Posted January 7 Since this is a widespread type, chances are that another use of that error die might show up, so checking regularly might pay off. Your coin has also other features that seem to point more to a year 10: Nero's neck looks like it has a bit of a tyrhoid problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AETHER Posted January 7 · Member Share Posted January 7 Very interesting and very appealing mystery hunt, for this reason, the coin is worth it. And you can always upgrade down the line if u need centering and a date, but this is much more fun and I'm sure you are learning from it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted January 7 · Supporter Share Posted January 7 (edited) Maybe more details regarding the "steps" question can be found in E. Christiansens: The Roman Coins of Alexandria (1987), which RPC seems to have relied upon. The only hint in RPC is the following bit: "With the addition of the aegis to the radiate portrait later in that year (say, early 65), however, the 'steps' hairstyle was dropped and the previous hairstyle, with the hair combed forward over the forehead, was resumed". I suspect steps is supposed to describe the fact that the hairline over the forehead consists of two almost linear parts slightly angled to each other, whereas in the regular portrait the hairline is curved. Edited January 7 by Marcus 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted January 7 · Patron Share Posted January 7 Here's mine. The date is L IA. Steps hairstyle, perhaps???? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted January 7 · Member Author Share Posted January 7 Yes! This is what I also suspect - that what you have there is the steps hairstyle (this makes mine the 'non steps' version i think). What confuses (or confused) me is that the attributions from auctions I found were pretty random. Bottom line - my coin should be either year 10 - LI or year 11 - LIA with radiate head without special mentions. And I suspect it's year 10 - entry 5275 in RPC. I will keep monitoring for a reverse die match, to clarify the double P, but if any colleague finds a reverse die match I would be grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsyas Mike Posted January 7 · Member Share Posted January 7 Interesting tet, @ambr0zie, My first thought about the doubled reverse legend is that it is a double-struck/die-shift going on. Note the doubling of Poppaea's chin (not a "double chin" as part of the portrait's rendition, but a "ghost" chin beneath) which is matched on her ponytail or bun or whatever that is her hair is bunched in at her neck. She might also have two ears on the same side of her head, like a Picasso? My uneducated guess is that the strike caused this doubling, including the extra Greek P in her name. I'm not sure about Nero's hair style type. I got two poor specimens of this type last year; for some reason, a lot of Egyptian material has been showing up on eBay, including a lot of poor condition stuff I can afford. My tetradrachm collection has expanded greatly. As far as I can tell these are both Year LΙ (10) = (63-64 A.D.) RPC I 5275 (Average weight 12.26 grams; Specimens 17); Dattari (Savio) 196; Geissen 157; Emmett 128.10; Kampmann/Ganschow 14.78; Milne 217. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qcumbor Posted January 7 · Supporter Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Marsyas Mike said: My first thought about the doubled reverse legend is that it is a double-struck/die-shift going on. Note the doubling of Poppaea's chin (not a "double chin" as part of the portrait's rendition, but a "ghost" chin beneath) which is matched on her ponytail or bun or whatever that is her hair is bunched in at her neck. She might also have two ears on the same side of her head, like a Picasso? My uneducated guess is that the strike caused this doubling, including the extra Greek P in her name. That's my opinion too : doubling of the first letter, ghost of the bun behing Poppaea's head and doubling of the chin below her actual chin Q 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted January 7 · Member Author Share Posted January 7 This is a valid possibility but don't you think the letter is too well struck as opposed to the double chin and especially the ghost bun? Don't get me wrong - I am not an errors hunter and especially not an '' inventor of errors'' (like a guy I saw recently on some Facebook groups, trying to convince everyone that he has an unlisted Viminacium because he really wanted to see DN PHILIPPUS - un fact it was a normal IMP M PHILIPPUS but the coin was worn and damaged) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Collector Posted January 7 · Patron Share Posted January 7 One would think other letters would be doubled, too, were the extra Π from a die shift or double strike. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambr0zie Posted January 7 · Member Author Share Posted January 7 Also the Π characters do not seem identical. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsyas Mike Posted January 7 · Member Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, ambr0zie said: Also the Π characters do not seem identical. Maybe. Sometimes on ancient double strikes there is a kind of blurring or elongation effect. And note the two hair buns and the two Π characters are in the same orientation to each other. But I don't know for sure! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulla80 Posted January 7 · Supporter Share Posted January 7 Looking at Poppaea's chin - I am also in the camp that says: double strike artifact: the first Π on your coin is also a bit mashed - similar depth to the first strike chin of Poppaea. I'd attribute the difference between the first two Π's to the mashing of second strike. While not possible to be sure - I think you are right that most probable year is LI = RY 10 = AD 63/4. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsyas Mike Posted January 8 · Member Share Posted January 8 A Vespasian tetradrachm recently came my way with some doubling - note the "ghost chin" and what appears to be two sets of lips. Vespasian was a good kisser, all the ancient sources agree! I am not sure how only part of the strike could be doubled, or if this is a die-clash or some other technical malfunction. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qcumbor Posted January 8 · Supporter Share Posted January 8 (edited) 20 hours ago, Marsyas Mike said: I am not sure how only part of the strike could be doubled, It sometimes happens, for some reason I can't explain myself. See below a french royal quart d'ecu minted for Henri III (not mine anymore) where the legend erroneously reads HENRICVCVS instead of HENRICVS with only a very light doubling on the N of FRAN on the opposite. Other than that, the die shift/double strike doesn't seem to affect much the devices Henri III (1574-1589) - Quart d'ecu 1583 - Atelier d'Angers (F) HENRICVCV8 . (sic !) III . D : G . FRAN . ET . POL . REX . 1583, croix fleurdelisée SIT . NOMEN . DNI . BENEDICTVM . 8, ecu de France couronné accosté de II et II, F a la pointe de l'ecu 9.36 gr Ref : Ciani # 1438 Q Edited January 9 by Qcumbor 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broucheion Posted January 12 · Member Share Posted January 12 Hi All, NERO (12 Oct 54 - 9 Jun 68 CE) ALEXANDRIA, EGYPT Year 11 (064/065 CE) Bi Tetradrachm Size: 24x25 mm Weight: 10.90 g Axis: 00:00 Broucheion Collection R-1995-11-21.001 Obv: Nero head wearing radiate crown and diadem, facing right. Steps hairstyle. Legend: NEPΩNKΛAY - [KAIΣΣEB ΓΕΡΜAV]. Border not visible. Rev: Poppea portrait bust facing right, hair tied behind head. Above is legend: ΠOΠΠAIAΣEBAΣTH. Date LIA in right field. Refs: Emmett-128.11; Geissen-168; Dattari-197 to 198, pl i; RPC I-5282; Milne-223 to 225; Curtis-143 to 148 see illus 5 & 8; Frankfurt am Main-119 to 121; SNG Copenhagen-117; BMC-124 to125; see Vogt I 26f/31f; Vogt-II 10; Bern-18 to 19, pl I; Sadek-134 Notes: 1. Poppaea Sabina was married to Nero in 62 CE as his second wife. She had been married twice before, firstly to Rufus Crispinus and then to the future emperor Otho. She died from the effects of an accidental kick by Nero in 65 CE. 2. According to JW Curtis, Poppaea does not appear as sole type on any other coins of the Roman Empire. - Broucheion 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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