help needed identifying a trachy coin (from forum s byzantine coin lovers)

[theotokevoithi]

Hanging for years as a pendant...

Scyphate / Billon with extraoridnary thick silvered surface / Size as sear 1918 and 1944

1) an old man s emperor bust

2) christ elevating a child (western iconography, coronation ?)

Preferation : Thessalonician  and made by latin ruler or Norman made by venetians.

 

Merry christmas and thank you

[JeandAcre]

I'm hardly one of the experts here, but it's an interesting reverse, and I like your lateral thinking regarding the possibilities.

(Edit:) And, Sorry, Merry Christmas --whenever yours is!

(Edit redux: Shout-out to @TheTrachyEnjoyer!)

Edited December 22, 2023 by JeandAcre

[sand]

Byzantine Empire, probably. The Emperor side, looks somewhat like Alexius I or John II. Here's my Byzantine Alexius I trachy.

Byzantine Empire. Alexius I. Billon Aspron Trachy. Minted 1092 AD To 1093 AD. Constantinople Mint. Sear 1918. DO 25. Maximum Diameter 26.8 mm. Weight 3.01 grams. Obverse : Jesus Christ Seated Upon Throne, Bearded, With Halo, Holding Book In Left Hand. Reverse : Alexius I Bust Facing Front, Bearded, Holding Scepter Cruciger In Right Hand, Holding Globus Cruciger In Left Hand.

Edited December 23, 2023 by sand

[theotokevoithi]

If it is byzantine i would prefer it to be :

Coronation issue (I can see something like manus dei or sunbeam remains above the head of the child, byzantine coronation standard, heavy surface silvering).

Frontal : John ii Comnenus , year 1119, sear 1944 ( Alexios i was slim, Manuel i avoided long beard, after them no emperor could afford high silver content)

Back : Coemperor Alexios , 13 years old getting blessed by Christ according to byzantine coronation standard (he never became emperor, he died in 1142).

Westernized motif : Mother Irini of Hungary, general byzantine  westernization.

Place : Maybe Thessalonica (alexios born in Balabista , shortly before the feast of st demetrius of thessalonica on 1106)

Maybe thrown from a balcony to the people after the ceremony or given to specific important people.

Unpublished if we cant find one like that (i believe there are more)

 

It is a nice story, waiting for your opinions.

 

[Simon]

Alexius I Comenenus,  SBCV-1918, near the beginning of the coin reform in 1092 AD. This one still has heavy silver on it so I toned it down for the photo. See that Christ is enthroned, also note the attire Alexius is wearing matches yours. The coin was minted between 1092 and 1118 AD and went through some changes, Per CLBC the silver content started very high at 8% and dropped to 6%, the die diameter also changed.  Alexius I Comnenus BI Aspron Trachy. Constantinople, AD 1092-1118. SBCV-1918Nimbate Christ enthroned facing, wearing pallium and colobium, holding book of Gospels in left hand; IC-XC across fields / + ΑΛ ΔЄC, bust facing, wearing crown and jewelled chlamys, holding cruciform sceptre and globus cruciger. DOC 25b; Sear 1918. 4.92g, 29mm, 6h.
 

Now what is very interesting is the portrait on yours, it looks more like John II to me or a much older Alexius. The other coin you mentioned is very different. John had no Billion trachea with Christ enthroned. 

The Latin's did not make billion trachea, however some of the break off empires did. 

John II SBSC-1944

 JOHN II BILLION TRACHY NOMISA IV DOC 10 Constantinople SBCV-1944
OBV IC XC in field
Bust of Christ bearded and nimbate, wearing tunic and kolobion, holds Gospels in l. hand. Pellet in each limb of nimbus cross.
REV Bust of emperor wearing stemma, divitision,collar piece and paneled loros of a simplified type; holds in r hand scepter cruciger and in l. gl.cr
Size 29.10

Weight 4.9gm
DOC lists 20 examples total with weights from 2.59gm to 5.00 gm and sizes from 28 to 30 mm. It has two variations A and B , both are equal in rarity , the difference is a stroke on shaft on type B.
 

Hope that helps, I am only a few coins from finishing the 12th century for the Roman Christain Empire (Byzantine.) The two I displayed are my best examples of those types. 

Merry Christmas!

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Simon

[Simon]

2 hours ago, theotokevoithi said:

( Alexios i was slim, Manuel i avoided long beard, after them no emperor could afford high silver content)

Don't go by portraits alone, people change so did their portraits on coins. 

 That' is also  not correct regarding silver content. The silver content per the studies done by Dumbarton Oakes on trachea (1990's) and it actually followed DM. Metcalf Metallurgy study done in the 1960's

Alexius trachea was on average 6%, his son John II had the highest at 7 to 8% and Manuel dropped his to 5 and 6%, Isaac II drops it to 2.5- 3%. No record on Andronicus or Alexius III. 

The Constantinople tetartera (Flat coinage) of the time also had a silver content. But it is not in Sear, just DOC catalog IV and numerous writings starting from Metcalf in the 1960's. Sadly the newer catalogs fail to mention this. ( CLBC, Sommer)

High numbers bellow. 

Alexius I is 3.84% , John II 4.65% , Manuel 4.19%(most issues much lower like 2%) , Isaac II 1.25% No record on Alexius III. 

 

By the time of Alexius III his Electrum coinage looked almost just silver, no gold at all. Easy to confuse with a billion trachy. 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Simon

[theotokevoithi]

Thanks for the accurate information.

''people change so did their portraits on coins'' : Great truth.

Front : I will adopt John ii or later explanation

Back : that s the mystery, i am sure it depicts a typical elevation in coemperor of a child-teen. I am seeking a second example.

Attached : the comnenians (attribution under question)

[theotokevoithi]

front : of course the garments indicate old  alexius, but then if it is a coronation issue it refers to 5 year old  john ii coemperor (ceremony 1092).Too young.

[Simon]

@theotokevoithi I just had a bunch of dental surgery and I misspoke when you said after Manuel they could not afford silver, I misread it (My apologies) and saw Manuel could not afford silver content. You are correct, you rarely see and silvering on Andronicus coinage, I have just trace silver from the wash but no data on how much the silver content was. 

As for the coronation coinage I am a little confused to what coin you are referring to. The coronation coinage is actually how the coin reform was dated. 1092, that is when John II was made co emperor  and successor of his father.  No coronation coins were issued when his father died. 

The first  Coronation coins with John and Alexius were in lead ( tetartera) Billion (trachea) and Mixed Gold Electrum (EL Aspron Trachy.) They are not easy to come by. 

I do not have SBCV-1914 the El Aspron Trachy

However I do have SBCV-1916 The Billion Aspron Trachy. Not pretty but hard to come by in any condition. 

 

The lead tetarteron. This one is from Constantinople. 

 

If you look at the reverse of your coin, it matches SBCV 1918 ( here is another example, nice but silver gone.) 

 

Now I do understand the portrait looks more like John, one theory that has been used with other rulers is the portrait changed but the same coin was issued. However, the only way to prove this is to find a legend because that would change with the portrait. I have read of Isaac II coins issued but clearly with Andronicus Split beard, this was a mistake and likely because of the quick change in power. 

As of now no Alexius II coins are known, his father Manuel died and he was still a boy who only ruled a couple of years before Andronicus killed him, it is thought he used his fathers coinage during his rule. I think someone will find a Manuel coin with Alexius II inscription it will be the first Alexius II coin found. 

Perhaps your coin is John II but issued on Alexius coin. Or it is just an older picture of Alexius. 

This coin I have had in the collection for years, it is SBCV-1920 an Alexius Issue City tetartera but the portrait always reminded me of his son.  The obv is Christ and the rev the emperor. 

 

I hope this helps or at least keeps you looking. 

Enjoy the holidays and Merry Christmas, I have enjoyed the conversation. 

 

 

 

 

 

[JeandAcre]

It's truly fantastic to see this kaleidescopic assemblage of expertise!  You guys are Too Great!

...For comic relief, here are my tetarteron and histamenon nomisma of Alexius I.

Edited December 23, 2023 by JeandAcre

[Simon]

@JeandAcre Both are nice coins but the tetarteron is a really nice example. It has a silver content because it was a City tetarteron, the coins are not found at most archeological sites. Those sites ( Athens, Cornith, Thessalonica) showed had many examples of the Thessalonica coinage but rarely the city tetarteron. It was thought to have most circulated in the city of Constantinople itself. Many of the early

Here is one of my examples. In fact I use it as a main example. I like yours, I think your example has a better portrait. 

 

 

[JeandAcre]

@Simon, Many, Many thanks for your vote of confidence about my examples, and your profoundly elucidating observations about the tetarteron.  I'm going to copy your post into its own Google Docs file, for easy reference.  

Sorry about my tetarteron being a textbook example of 'beginner's luck.'  But I do have to agree with you that the portrait of Alexioc does present a more, may we say 'magisterial' bearing.  But yours has lots of its own character, which I can't help finding richly complementary.  Not to mention that the Christ enthroned in your example is better than mine, by orders of magnitude.

Edited December 23, 2023 by JeandAcre

[theotokevoithi]

Coronation coin issues to be expected - Comnenian

(coins indicating the elevation of an emperor s son as co emperor, there was a ceremony in the church, souvenir as we don t know if they circulated widely).

1) Alexius I - John II (1092) {Simon s example aspron trachy is great : Christ blessing the child and it includes the empress and emperor on the other side}

2) John II - Alexius ? (1119) {my coin aspron trachy : Christ elevating the child-teen, bust of John II on the other side} {questionable attribution/searching} {this alexius died before becoming emperor, one year later died his father}

3)Manuel I - Alexius II (1171) {I dont know if they exist}

4) For Andronicus I we do not expect to exist and after him the situation became turbulent

 

My opinion is that this must be the definition and the use of coronation issues. The majority of the other coins of trachy type contain someone been blessed/coronated by christ or virgin Mary.

I also consider the possibility that the types sear 1918,1944,1962 (emperor bust) must have had a special place in the numismatic system as they are recorded by byzantine chronicler Mesaritis.

These pieces are not gold, but they are part of the history of a race. That is their value and the motive to spend time searching even the details.

The tetartera are more difficult to attribute ! Good luck and thank you.

[theotokevoithi]

the photo is not very helpful, live is better !!

[Simon]

58 minutes ago, JeandAcre said:

Sorry about my tetarteron being a textbook example of 'beginner's luck.'

Never be sorry about finding great examples, some of the coins in my collection I spent years looking for any example.  Last year late DEC I completed my original goal of getting all of the tetartera of the 12th century. The last one I just got lucky, it was on Ebay, mis attributed by the seller and I got it for a song. It completed my 20 year plus year search.  ( I wont picture it here I will in my 10 pics for the year post I want to do.) 

In the last 5 or 6 years I began acquiring the other coins of the century, the hard ones where the coppers I already had almost all of those. The other ones, the gold and the billion were easily obtainable.  My collection now, to complete the century, I still need only a few coins, less than a dozen. 

This year I bought only a small number of coins but I aquired more literature to fill in the gaps of knowledge.  its no longer just a collection for me, it is a goal to fill the riddles the Easter Romans left behind regarding the coin reform. The biggest problem is very little contemporary literature ever mentions money or the economy, it was considered bad taste to write about it. Most of the information we get regarding the money comes from tax documents. As for the reform itself, it was the first major coin reform in 500 years, it also shaped the next currency for the next two centuries. To understand the coinage after the fall of Constantinople to the Latins you have to understand the Alexius coin reform. 

In regard to the collection the hardest to acquire is the Alexius coinage, it was of a high value, and it was defiantly restruck or melted down by his successors. Some of his coins will take me another decade to find. 

I hope I am wrong on @theotokevoithi coin, I hope he has found something new but at the same time I do not want to agree to something I am not seeing but he has the coin in hand and is perhaps seeing what I am not. 

Here is a pic of one of my favorite Alexius coins.  An El Aspron trachy, 3 of these were equal to a hyperpyron. 

And here is a coin tray for John II Comnenus. It includes a dupe of one of his rarest coins ( Tetarteron bottom left listed in DOC) just to even the pic out. It is in scale so you can see the denominations side by side. 

 

 

 

 

[TheTrachyEnjoyer]

10 hours ago, theotokevoithi said:

the photo is not very helpful, live is better !!

Keep in mind many of these are both over and double struck 

[Zimm]

Sadly I do not think your coin is a coronation issue, but rather a regular example of Sear 1918. Alexius I’s and John II’s busts can be quite similar to one another, but the one on your coin is clearly Alexius I. In addition to the bust itself resembling Alexius more, the regalia is also indicative of Sear 1918. Compare the examples below. First one is Sear 1918, the second your coin, and the third one Sear 1944. 

John II’s trachea have a simpler loros than those of Alexius II.

 

Furthermore, your obverse design is simply double struck, weakly struck, and worn. It is nonetheless clearly just the standard obverse for Sear 1918; Christ seated on a throne, holding the Gospels with his right hand in benediction. You can clearly see Christ, the edges of the throne on both the left and the right side, as well as the X from the legend on the right side. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Zimm

[theotokevoithi]

Accepted: sear 1918.

Zimm is right and his description too.

I will follow the explanation of bad strike , because in the case of a double strike of different motif we must find what is it.

The coin is baptised now, if it is a different thing it can wait 900 years more.Patiently!!!

Keep collecting these, unfortunately for now they are considered b class coinage.Their historical value through their images will be valued in future.That s the same case with basilica (i saw a great collection of them here in form of a christmas tree).

Stay happy !!

[voulgaroktonou]

On 12/23/2023 at 2:23 PM, Simon said:

@theotokevoithi I just had a bunch of dental surgery and I misspoke when you said after Manuel they could not afford silver, I misread it (My apologies) and saw Manuel could not afford silver content. You are correct, you rarely see and silvering on Andronicus coinage, I have just trace silver from the wash but no data on how much the silver content was. 

As for the coronation coinage I am a little confused to what coin you are referring to. The coronation coinage is actually how the coin reform was dated. 1092, that is when John II was made co emperor  and successor of his father.  No coronation coins were issued when his father died. 

The first  Coronation coins with John and Alexius were in lead ( tetartera) Billion (trachea) and Mixed Gold Electrum (EL Aspron Trachy.) They are not easy to come by. 

I do not have SBCV-1914 the El Aspron Trachy

However I do have SBCV-1916 The Billion Aspron Trachy. Not pretty but hard to come by in any condition. 

 

The lead tetarteron. This one is from Constantinople. 

 

If you look at the reverse of your coin, it matches SBCV 1918 ( here is another example, nice but silver gone.) 

 

Now I do understand the portrait looks more like John, one theory that has been used with other rulers is the portrait changed but the same coin was issued. However, the only way to prove this is to find a legend because that would change with the portrait. I have read of Isaac II coins issued but clearly with Andronicus Split beard, this was a mistake and likely because of the quick change in power. 

As of now no Alexius II coins are known, his father Manuel died and he was still a boy who only ruled a couple of years before Andronicus killed him, it is thought he used his fathers coinage during his rule. I think someone will find a Manuel coin with Alexius II inscription it will be the first Alexius II coin found. 

Perhaps your coin is John II but issued on Alexius coin. Or it is just an older picture of Alexius. 

This coin I have had in the collection for years, it is SBCV-1920 an Alexius Issue City tetartera but the portrait always reminded me of his son.  The obv is Christ and the rev the emperor. 

 

I hope this helps or at least keeps you looking. 

Enjoy the holidays and Merry Christmas, I have enjoyed the conversation. 

 

Here's another lead coronation tetarteron. 5.43 gr. 20.7 mm. 6 hr. DO 32.

 

...And billon trachy, 3.81 gr. 28.1 mm. 6 hr. DO 24.

 

 

[theotokevoithi]

Thank you voulgaroktonou,

The distribution of coins after the byzantine coronation ceremony

7-12 century : The imperial procession then exited the Great Palace and crossed the Augustaion square to the Hagia Sophia in a formal procession, scattering coins to the crowd, perhaps an evolution of the donative. This does not appear in Constantine VII's work.

13-15 century : At the same time, a specially chosen senator—i.e., a holder of a court title or office —mounted the steps of the Augustaion square and began distributing coins to the assembled populace, in the form of small packages (epikombia) with three gold, three silver, and three bronze coins

At the Great Palace, the coronation banquet took place, for the imperial family only, while the lower court dignitaries attended, but did not dine. The megas domestikos was responsible for serving the emperors, or, if he was not available, one of the despots, sebastokratores, or kaisares.On the following day, the emperors left for the main imperial residence, the Palace of Blachernae. There another senator distributed epikombia to the people, while the new emperor himself threw gold coins to the court dignitaries and their sons, assembled in the palace courtyard.[97] Festivities at the palace continued for several days thereafter—according to Pseudo-Kodinos, ten, unless otherwise specified by the emperor—with banquets at which all court dignitaries dined

 

Alexius i coronation coins are known, the other comnenian are not. Keep an eye for them. We are searching the Epicombia, they were given as gift and not for general circulation. Alexius i coronation issues are severely undervalued for now.

[theotokevoithi]

Epicombia : Coins or medals / Packaging / Number / Way of distribution /  Greek emperors - coemperors coronations after 900

Thomas Philipot 1672

I believe that this is new knowledge, regardless of the disqualification of my coin as one of them :)

If a whole package epicombion is found intact, it is the holy grail of byzantine coinage.

[Simon]

6 hours ago, theotokevoithi said:

Alexius i coronation coins are known, the other comnenian are not

Thank you for the info, you said the Alexius coins are known, do you have pictures of these medals? I have not encountered this before in any of the books I have read but judging on the age of your reference that is not uncommon for information to be lost. 

 

 

[theotokevoithi]

Opinion : The epicombion of alexius i (coronation of coemperor john ii, 1092) contained three SBCV-1914, three SBCV-1916 and three small lead coronation issues.

We know call them EL aspron trachy (considered the gold coloured item), Billon aspron trachy (considered the silver coloured item), Lead Tetarteron (considered the brass coloured item).

They contain images of the coemperor getting blessed. It is more possible to be them in the souvenir epicombion than normal circulating coins.

If it is right that there were up to ten thousand epicombia distributed (Philipot. I consider it too much), then i believe they circulated normally as coins after the ceremony.

The things we know are less than the things we do not know , we have to examine possibilities and maybe be wrong until we conclude to something. The byzantines, as you mentioned,  avoided to write about numismatics. Even the mints were operated by the lowest ranks of the society as workers and the quality of the issues (except gold and maybe el) was bad. The coin dies were used till exhaustion. I refer to medieval byzantines and their coins (grecobyzantines, not romans who called themselves ROMAIOI after 1000 ).

The one who keeps questioning, finds something in the end. That s the way it is done. And this is not done yet for the later byzantine coinage, you can buy a billon aspron trachy for 2 dollars. This is a disrespect for their historic value and the variety of iconography they carry. We are trapped in a difficult unending byzantine coin taxonomy and we do not examine the other aspects, like the link of specific items to historical events.

But, i am happy i discovered there are more people interested (the members of the forum).Many of them , like you, have worked harder on the subject than me.