Questions about Vinchon Numismatique Auction lots

[Edessa]

I am looking for a little advice. I did something that is looking as if it was probably a mistake by bidding in the latest Jean Vinchon Numimatique auction on Numisbids and winning two lots.

First of all, when the email arrived with the invoice, it did not reference Vinchon at all. It was from a firm called Osenat Paris and the upper part was all in French. I thought it was spam and deleted it. Only a week later when I was checking my bids on Numisbids did I realize that I had one two lots and finally figured out that this "spam" email was actually for the Vinchon auction and contained my invoice.

I paid the invoice with TransferWise, no issues. I get a reply back saying thanks for the bids, your invoice is paid, now your items are sitting in our office in Versailles, and we do not ship. We will start charging you a storage fee of 5 EUR per day per item 15 days after the date of sale. Please either pick up your items at our office or arrange shipping with a shipping company.

• Send your slip to à Mail Boxes mbe2509exp@mbefrance.fr / Exploit International-logistic exploit@international-logistic.fr / /fine.art@golden-transports.com /hello@thepackengers.com or, to the carrier of your choice.

So, I take it that I am supposed to contact one of these companies and arrange for them to physically pick up an envelope with two coins in Versailles, fill out all the export paperwork about an item they know nothing of and mail it to me in the States? I guess I can do that, but it's about the most customer-unfriendly procedure that I can imagine. Anyone had to deal with the Vinchon system before and have any recommendations?

 

[ambr0zie]

I never bought from this auction house and from what you wrote, I never will. 

Also I never heard about an auction house that demands the buyer to arrange the shipping. I am not saying this is unheard of, but I certainly never heard of this kind of procedure. 

Looking at the T&C from NumisBids (and it is all ambiguous as they mention the auction house as "PHIDIAS" and you said you received the invoice from "Osenat Paris", but they are listed as Jean Vinchon), they only mention that Shipping costs to France or abroad are the responsibility of the purchaser.

I am not a native English speaker, but the whole T&C looks like it's translated using an alpha version of Google Translate, with many absurd terms appearing because of automated translation. 

Basically they are mentioning that the customer is responsible for paying the transport - and this is the standard situation for all the houses. But the customer to arrange the shipping process? This is absurd. And export procedures are mentioned too. Let alone the 5 euros/day storage fee. 

Perhaps try to request guidance from the email contacts they provided. But I'm sure this is the last time you will buy from them. 

 

[Heliodromus]

That seems outrageous to me.

I've seen other auction houses have something along the lines of "shipping is customers responsibility" in their terms, but it's always more of a disclaimer (meant to cover unusual circumstances?) than reality. They all offer standard shipping options that they take care of regardless.

Did the invoice you paid include shipping cost, and if so indicate what type of shipping was charged for ?

Maybe it's just a matter of calling FexEx/DHL to do a pickup from their office?

 

[Edessa]

5 minutes ago, Heliodromus said:

That seems outrageous to me.

I've seen other auction houses have something along the lines of "shipping is customers responsibility" in their terms, but it's always more of a disclaimer (meant to cover unusual circumstances?) than reality. They all offer standard shipping options that they take care of regardless.

Did the invoice you paid include shipping cost, and if so, indicate what type of shipping was charged for?

Maybe it's just a matter of calling FexEx/DHL to do a pickup from their office?

 

I have asked for clarification and will give them a day or two to respond. I did find out that "Mail Boxes" is a French shipping company. Perhaps I will just call them tomorrow and see about a pickup. And sure, FedEx or DHL might do the same. I have never asked FedEx or DHL to do a pickup, but I can see where that might be required if the item was a large and valuable antique. My impression is that the parent firm usually deals with auctions of such material.

The invoice did not show shipping costs. I have seen that before, but once the auction invoice was paid the firm involved always sent me a supplemental invoice for shipping. While that is also odd, it's never actually been a problem before. I do agree that some of the confusion appears to be due to a translation issue. They are not using the terms in the way we would interpret conventional English.

Thanks for the ideas!

[John Conduitt]

This is the same with TimeLine auctions in the UK. They also use Mail Boxes Etc (MBE, a US company, as in the use of the word 'Mail'), but their process is less unfriendly. They also send you an invoice saying you are to arrange shipping, but they have a button on the website to 'request shipping quote' and that automatically gets added to the invoice. The amount is no different to what you'd pay with an auction house that arranges it for you.

I think what they're trying to do is wash their hands of responsibility for shipping. If you 'arrange' it (even if it's their choice of courier) the contract is between you and the courier. The courier knows what to do and there's no problem because they are being contacted by all the winners. But if it gets lost, you can't involve the auction house.

Edited December 14, 2023 by John Conduitt

[Kaleun96]

3 hours ago, Edessa said:

So, I take it that I am supposed to contact one of these companies and arrange for them to physically pick up an envelope with two coins in Versailles, fill out all the export paperwork about an item they know nothing of and mail it to me in the States? I guess I can do that, but it's about the most customer-unfriendly procedure that I can imagine. Anyone had to deal with the Vinchon system before and have any recommendations?

Yep that's what you need to do. This is why you always need to read the terms and conditions before bidding, particularly for French auction houses as they are typically known for not doing in-house shipping. 

It sucks and is expensive but the auction house can't be faulted if it's in their terms. It's best not to use Numisbids but to bid at the primary platform the auction house is using and to read the sale terms on that platform. This sale was on Drouot I believe and usually Drouot says on the lot page "shipping via X is quoted at Y price" and then a note saying you can also choose a different provider if you wish. That makes it much clearer than Numisbids that you have to arrange shipping yourself.

I believe Vinchon uses Phidas to run the auction and it's then hosted on several platforms like Drouot. The auction that took place the following day was then run by Osenat it seems, hence the various names popping up in the terms and invoices etc. All a bit confusing but also not surprising when it comes to the French auction houses.

In my experience, auction houses typically waive the storage fees if you pay on time, the item is small, and you tell them when you will arrange for it to be collected. I've had auction houses keep my items for a month or two this way without incurring the storage fee.

[Kaleun96]

1 hour ago, ambr0zie said:

Looking at the T&C from NumisBids (and it is all ambiguous as they mention the auction house as "PHIDIAS" and you said you received the invoice from "Osenat Paris", but they are listed as Jean Vinchon), they only mention that Shipping costs to France or abroad are the responsibility of the purchaser.

I am not a native English speaker, but the whole T&C looks like it's translated using an alpha version of Google Translate, with many absurd terms appearing because of automated translation. 

Basically they are mentioning that the customer is responsible for paying the transport - and this is the standard situation for all the houses. But the customer to arrange the shipping process? This is absurd. And export procedures are mentioned too. Let alone the 5 euros/day storage fee. 

Perhaps try to request guidance from the email contacts they provided. But I'm sure this is the last time you will buy from them. 

"But the customer to arrange the shipping process? This is absurd" - it's actually fairly common among art and antiquities auction houses but as to the confusing terms it probably depends on whose responsibility it was for updating the terms in Numisbids. If it's Vinchon's responsibility, I think there's a decent argument that Edessa can stick to his guns and ask for Vinchon to complete the shipping on their behalf and just charge them the resulting amount. If it's Numisbids' responsibility, however, then Edessa likely has no choice and has to abide by the sale terms as listed on Drouot or one of the other live platforms used.

Though even if Vinchon agrees to handle the shipping, which is something these auction houses will sometimes offer anyway, all they're going to do is call up MBE etc or The Packengers and charge you the same amount it would cost if you had called them up for a quote. So you don't save any money, you just don't need to deal with the middle-man.

[ambr0zie]

23 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

it's actually fairly common among art and antiquities auction houses but as to the confusing terms it probably depends on whose responsibility it was for updating the terms in Numisbids.

I agree with you but it's not the customer's responsibility to investigate anything else than, of course, the T&Cs from the platform. Like you also said. 

If they specify this on other platforms, then I don't think @Edessa (or anyone else) has to check what are the T&Cs on other places. 

I have a counter example - I have recently participated in an auction, on biddr. I knew that the house does NOT ship in my country if the purchase is made on Ebay. No idea why. But this condition was NOT listed in the biddr T&Cs. I found this out after I participated in the auction and I got a little worried. However things went absolutely smooth - they sent the package without any issues or extra costs except the normal ones. 

And yes, even if this is not an uncommon practice, I personally would avoid any house that does not fully arrange the transport. Especially since another hidden cost appears - "storage fee". 

[John Conduitt]

7 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

Especially since another hidden cost appears - "storage fee". 

Yes this is the outrageous bit. You win your lots and pay for them, and because they don't want to deal with shipping and you have to, it might take a little longer to arrange. Of course, you want your lots. But they have the Gaul (sic) to threaten storage fees straight away! Most auction houses will hold on to your lots free of charge so you can consolidate shipping across auctions, not screw you over.

I imagine sometimes in the art and antiquities world, it might be necessarily. If someone wins a brontosaurus skeleton and leaves it in your office for six months, you need to hurry them along (although EUR5 a day might be good value in that case). But Jean Vinchon Numismatique? What's their problem?

[ajax]

It seems that dealers and flippers now found their Eldorado in French auctions. It's convenient because the provenance gets lost and victim clients can't find previous sale prices. But photos are low quality and "experts" used are ignorants. As a result happy flippers slab their wins and on many occasions get nasty surprises which lead to loss instead of the desired flipping profits.

[ominus1]

...something lost in translation....or hook and crook...i haven't dealt with this entity nor have i used wise yet, but i'd ask for a refund and cancel...

[DonnaML]

Vinchon is an old company; maybe this is how they've been doing business for 100 years and they don't see any need to change, as outrageous as it all seems. Drouot has also been around forever -- specifically, since 1852! -- originally as only a physical location, the Hôtel Drouot, that hosted (and still hosts) auctions of art and antiquities of all types. See the 1966 provenance at the end of my description of my Valentinian I solidus:

Valentinian I, AV Solidus, 365 AD [Sear, Depeyrot] (reigned 364-375 AD), Antioch Mint, 3rd Officina. Obv. Rosette-diademed (with square & round rosettes separated by ovoid pearls), draped, & cuirassed bust right, D N VALENTINI-ANVS P F AVG [Dominus Noster Valentinianus Pius Felix Augustus] / Rev. Valentinian, in military attire, standing facing, head right, holding labarum or vexillum ornamented with “T” [probably a Greek Tau cross] in right hand* and, in outstretched left hand, Victory standing left on globe, holding up crowning wreath towards emperor, RESTITVTOR – REIPVBLICAE around; in exergue, ANTΓ [Antioch Mint, 3rd Officina**].  RIC IX (1951) Antioch 2b (var. unlisted) ***; Sear RCV V 19267 at p. 294 (rosette-diademed, with no cross in the reverse left field, no stars or dots in the reverse exergue, and known from Officina 3, as well as Officina 10) (citing Depeyrot); Depeyrot II Antioch 23/1 Valentinian I (p. 281) (examples with this mint-mark, without stars or dots, & monogrammed cross in labarum rather than Chi-Ro, known from Officinas 3 & 10) (citing 1966 sale of this coin as the one example from 3rd Officina, with one other from 10th Officina) [Depeyrot, George., Les Monnaies d'Or de Constantin II à Zenon (337-491) (Wetteren 1996)]. 21.2 mm., 4.44 g. Purchased from Odysseus Numismatique [Julien Cougnard], Montpellier, France, Feb. 2022, “from an old Parisian collection”; ex Maison Vinchon Auction Sale, Mon. 25 April 1966, Hôtel Drouot, Paris, Lot 257.

This is from the Wikipedia entry on Drouot:

"Hôtel Drouot is a large auction place in Paris, known for fine art, antiques, and antiquities. It consists of 16 halls hosting 70 independent auction firms, which operate under the umbrella grouping of Drouot.

The firm's main location, called Drouot-Richelieu, is situated on the Rue Drouot in the 9th arrondissement of Paris, on a site once occupied by the Paris Opera's Salle Le Peletier. The nearest Métro station is Richelieu - Drouot.

Other locations used to exist: Drouot-Montaigne, Drouot-Montmartre, and Drouot-Véhicules.

Details of forthcoming auctions are published in the weekly Gazette de l'Hôtel Drouot, sold at newsstands and by subscription.

In 2008 Hôtel Drouot was ranked fifth by sales amongst Paris auction houses, after Sotheby's, Christie's, Artcurial, and Ader-Picard-Tajan.

History

The Hôtel Drouot was inaugurated on 1 June 1852.

During World War II and the German occupation of France, a large number of artworks from collections that had been owned by Jews passed through Drouot, which was as a result included on the Art Looting Investigation Unit list of Red Flag names."

This issue isn't a problem with cgb.fr, but I'll be careful in the future not to buy from any French auction house without checking first to make sure that I don't have to make shipping arrangements myself. Something I have no desire ever to do!

Edited to add: There are no shipping problems with Odysseus Numismatique either, as @Deinomenid points out.

Edited December 14, 2023 by DonnaML

[John Conduitt]

6 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

Vinchon is an old company; maybe this is how they've been doing business for 100 years and they don't see any need to change, as outrageous as it all seems. Drouot has also been around forever, originally as only a physical location, the Hôtel Drouot, that hosted (and still hosts) auctions of art and antiquities of all types.

I might buy from them if they still make plaster casts of the coins to photograph, but there are some old ways that aren't endearing.

[Deinomenid]

5 hours ago, Edessa said:

most customer-unfriendly procedure that I can imagine

I've had the (mis)fortune to buy from Vinchon and Prunier in France. They were both extremely difficult to arrange delivery  through. 6 months in one case, 5  in the other and this was only partly related to permits. Customer service was poor at best (I'm absolutely not  saying this is a French thing - CGB are prompt and Odysseus is lightning fast.) 

I hope the mailbox route works, but for Vinchon in the end to get my coins a third party had to collect them and mail onwards. It was not unstressful.  PS Hoping you were  not bidding for any of the Regnard collection they just sold. Some highly "original" pieces there egad...

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Deinomenid
typo. Got to learn lightening from lightning.

[panzerman]

I have dealt with most auction houses/ never ever ran into this problem/ almost sounds like comedy skit. Droult also has natural history auctions. When collecting rare butterlies I often won lots from Droult/ they always sent my pinned specimens/ double boxed thru mail/ always arrived intact. What I had issues with was their grading/ butterfly said to be IA (FDC) for coins. Then when you look at specimen carefully you see repairs to wings/ tails=A2 specimen. Like bidding on a FDC coin that has been "tooled" "repaired".

Back to coins/ my biggest pet peeve is when certain auction houses are adamant in sending coin via FEDEX with proper customs declaration/ end result you get dinged with addition 13% duties/ which adds up on a 4K euro coin. I do not deal with such any longer. The horrendous 50% exchange + 20 % Comm. fees is enough to pay extra.

[Kaleun96]

2 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

I agree with you but it's not the customer's responsibility to investigate anything else than, of course, the T&Cs from the platform. Like you also said. 

If they specify this on other platforms, then I don't think @Edessa (or anyone else) has to check what are the T&Cs on other places. 

My point wasn't that other platforms had other T&Cs for Vinchon's auction, my point was that it may not be Vinchon's fault that Numisbids had the wrong T&Cs. The question is whether Vinchon is responsible for ensuring that their T&Cs on Numisbids are updated and accurate, or is that Numisbids' responsibility?

If the former, there's a good argument for Edessa sticking to the terms that Vinchon has on Numisbids and arguing Vinchon needs to sort out shipping for them (at buyer's cost, of course). If the latter, then the mistake is with Numisbids and Edessa's complaint is then with Numisbids, not Vinchon. Naturally, Numisbids' own T&Cs absolve it of any liability (in words at least, not necessarily in law) so that would essentially mean Edessa is out of luck if the fault is with Numisbids.

I have no clue how the relationship between Numisbids and auction houses actually work so the above is just a hypothetical. I just wanted to point out that it may not necessarily be Vinchon's fault that the T&Cs on Numisbids are out dated and that it's best to bid with the official platform the auction house is using rather than an intermediary to ensure you're getting the most accurate information possible.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Kaleun96

[Edessa]

[El Cazador]

14 hours ago, Deinomenid said:

I've had the (mis)fortune to buy from Vinchon and Prunier in France. They were both extremely difficult to arrange delivery  through. 6 months in one case, 5  in the other and this was only partly related to permits. Customer service was poor at best (I'm absolutely not  saying this is a French thing - CGB are prompt and Odysseus is lightning fast.) 

I hope the mailbox route works, but for Vinchon in the end to get my coins a third party had to collect them and mail onwards. It was not unstressful.  PS Hoping you were  not bidding for any of the Regnard collection they just sold. Some highly "original" pieces there egad...

 

 

 

 

I agree, the pieces were fantastic and about 4-5 coins with exceptional eye appeal went for far below market… one of the reasons I don’t bid on Vichon is pain with shipping arrangements and long wait times…