Justinian Follis Repatination - Rampant?

[ela126]

Post this on a Facebook group and got zero feedback.

I clean coins pretty often and recently got into repatination, using liver of Sulfur on my recent attempts.

after 7-8 different application procedures. I’ve determined the “best” procedure has results which seem close to a number of coins in my collection. Specifically both my large Justinian Follis patina’s.

attached are the pictures of my two Follis, year 13 and 14. And the purchase pictures of the Follis I worked on (admitted, a lot of trial and error). 
 

Do your Follis seem to look like these?..

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by ela126

[ela126]

Video of my End result added.

 

 

[sand]

Here are 2 of my Justinian I 40 nummi follis coins. Coin 1 has a thinner patina. It may have been cleaned, and then perhaps it gained a cabinet patina. Or, the patina may be original. I don't know. Coin 2 has a thicker patina, in some areas of the coin. Unfortunately, the color of Coin 2 in the photos is not quite correct, because I had not yet mastered the calibration of the white balance in my camera (I was using auto white balance), when I took the photos of Coin 2. The color of Coin 2 is greener, than its appearance in the photos. The 3rd image is Coin 2, clipped from a group photo, which shows the color of the coin more accurately, but it is not as high resolution. Someday, now that I have mastered the calibration of the white balance in my camera, I'll re-take photos of both coins. Regarding your coins, I'm not expert enough, in the lore of coin patinas, to know if your first 2 coins' patinas are original versus artificially repatinated versus cabinet repatinated. However, the patinas look okay to me. The patinas don't scream "fake patina" to me. The worst patinas, are the ones that look painted on. Your first 2 coins' patinas don't look painted on, which is good. Regarding your 3rd coin, the coin that you cleaned and then artificially repatinated, I agree that the patina resembles the patina of your 2nd coin, in some ways. I didn't look at your video, because I'm reluctant to click on attachments in posts, unless it's 1 of those Youtube embedded videos. My Coin 1 has maximum diameter 44.0 mm, weight 21.73 grams. My Coin 2 has maximum diameter 40.0 mm,  weight 23.02 grams.

Edited November 5, 2023 by sand

[John Conduitt]

I guess the issue is that most coins have been cleaned and so eventually repatinated one way or another. In that sense it is rampant. Your method might happen to create a look that most well-cleaned coins get, whether repatinated naturally or not. ‘Natural’ patina also comes from sulphur, it just takes longer (and is aided by modern pollution).

Edited November 5, 2023 by John Conduitt

[ela126]

3 hours ago, sand said:

Here are 2 of my Justinian I 40 nummi follis coins. Coin 1 has a thinner patina. It may have been cleaned, and then perhaps it gained a cabinet patina. Or, the patina may be original. I don't know. Coin 2 has a thicker patina, in some areas of the coin. Unfortunately, the color of Coin 2 in the photos is not quite correct, because I had not yet mastered the calibration of the white balance in my camera (I was using auto white balance), when I took the photos of Coin 2. The color of Coin 2 is greener, than its appearance in the photos. The 3rd image is Coin 2, clipped from a group photo, which shows the color of the coin more accurately, but it is not as high resolution. Someday, now that I have mastered the calibration of the white balance in my camera, I'll re-take photos of both coins. Regarding your coins, I'm not expert enough, in the lore of coin patinas, to know if your first 2 coins' patinas are original versus artificially repatinated versus cabinet repatinated. However, the patinas look okay to me. The patinas don't scream "fake patina" to me. The worst patinas, are the ones that look painted on. Your first 2 coins' patinas don't look painted on, which is good. Regarding your 3rd coin, the coin that you cleaned and then artificially repatinated, I agree that the patina resembles the patina of your 2nd coin, in some ways. I didn't look at your video, because I'm reluctant to click on attachments in posts, unless it's 1 of those Youtube embedded videos. My Coin 1 has maximum diameter 44.0 mm, weight 21.73 grams. My Coin 2 has maximum diameter 40.0 mm,  weight 23.02 grams.

Thank you for the reply and gorgeous coins. Coin 1 is amazing!

Through my moderate experience I’ve determine coins with visible fixed dirt or encrustations on them are most likely original patinas, as applying realistic “find patina” would be exceedingly difficult to complete. Because of this, I would assume your 2nd coin is natural.

Your first coin has a beautiful old collection seeming patina. I’m not familiar enough to comment about these, but it’s very desireable looking, and I would assume, original.

In what I’ve done, the oxidization process of the sulfur produced a light gray color, with it deepening to black as the process is extended. My coin 2, the year 13, has these exact light and dark areas which seem to match what I’ve completed. It’s a very desirable coin and look, but I presume it must have been treated. Coin 1, with its similar gray color, makes me think this was also done.

[ewomack]

I'm really fascinated by your posts on these topics, but I have to admit very little knowledge. I'm curious to learn more, especially about the patination process of copper, since I seem to have a larger interest in old copper coins (including US Half Cents). Your post did inspire to me look up "liver of sulphur." (and this)

My single Justinian Follis contains quite a few green sprinklings, which the photos de-emphasize somewhat. It looks slightly more green in hand.

Justinian I Follis (540/1 - Year 14), Constantinople mint, Obv: DN IVSTINIANVS PP AVG, helmeted, cuirassed bust facing holding cross on globe and shield; cross to right. Rev: Large M, ANNO to left, cross above, XIIII (date) to right, A below, CON in exergue, Sear 163

Edited November 5, 2023 by ewomack

[ela126]

1 hour ago, ewomack said:

I'm really fascinated by your posts on these topics, but I have to admit very little knowledge. I'm curious to learn more, especially about the patination process of copper, since I seem to have a larger interest in old copper coins (including US Half Cents). Your post did inspire to me look up "liver of sulphur." (and this)

My single Justinian Follis contains quite a few green sprinklings, which the photos de-emphasize somewhat. It looks slightly more green in hand.

Justinian I Follis (540/1 - Year 14), Constantinople mint, Obv: DN IVSTINIANVS PP AVG, helmeted, cuirassed bust facing holding cross on globe and shield; cross to right. Rev: Large M, ANNO to left, cross above, XIIII (date) to right, A below, CON in exergue, Sear 163

The procedure you found is close to what I’ve determined through trial and error (although I enjoy that kind of stuff).

handsome looking Follis. I’d guess this is a natural patina as the green spotting is from minor porosity and has “find patina” or dirt stuck in the holes. I have this occur with a lot of my cleaned coins when cleaning off the dirt layer, exposing the patina underneath.

I have a few EAC myself, although I wouldn’t suggest liver of sulfur to adjust their patina, unless you’re stripping detector finds. I would think the end result color on a Large Cent would be pretty odd, but who knows?!

[robinjojo]

Liver of Sulphur, diluted in heated distilled water, is very useful in reestablishing a patina of a bronze coin that has been totally stripped of the original surface down to bare metal, with the caveat that this needs to be noted on the coin's label.  This substance needs to be quite diluted  - this gives more control over the level of darkness of the repatination.   Also, it is important to keep in mind that the coin will continue to darken after drying. 

It does takes some experience using this chemical whether through emersion or application with a cotton swab.

Also, depending on the alloy of the coin, brass versus bronze, the patination is different.  Byzantine bronzes seem to have a very high copper content, lending themselves to a darker shade of brown.  Roman bronzes, being primarily brass, seem to tone more in the dark yellow range.

Edited November 5, 2023 by robinjojo

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

So many of the Justinian I folles seem to have dark patinas.  I don't think they can all be fake.  I've always wondered if the oreo one, below, is a faux patina.

The second Justinian is fairly typical. It's darker in person than the photo.  Almost black.

A lot of the Savoca Byzantine AE's seem to have a uniform dark patina, even if they have some dirt on it.

The deep greenies (the green Justin I and II, respectively) seem to be much less common.

Do the Severan era as-sized Balkan provincials have a high copper content?  They seem to have a very high percentage of deep green patinas.

The dark patina with earthen highlights (bottom) is somewhat common from dealers who have closer to uncleaned selections.  The color of the metal peeking out from the dirt is pretty typical of Byzantines from the period.

I've noticed that the Sicilian ones are much more prone to being green.

 

 

[robinjojo]

I've seen coins that have been "improved" with an artificial sand patina, easily removed with a brief bath in distilled water and the use of cotton swabs  All ancient coins have been treated from the point of discovery in some manner. 

The brown, even patinas that we often see are probably mostly coins that have been cleaned long ago and re-toned naturally over time.  The coins with hard green and brown patinas, often of varying thicknesses, are the result of burial.  

As for distinguishing a natural brown patina with one that was brought about with a chemical, such as Liver of Sulphur, that's really difficult, since the natural patina and the latter type are both chemically induced, a natural reaction between the copper and sulphur, oxygen and moisture.  A bright coin, such as a US penny, will darken over time due to this reaction, a process of oxidation.  Using a chemical just speeds up the process, but the result is the same, at least for bronze or brass coins.  Silver is a totally different matter.

[ela126]

3 hours ago, robinjojo said:

Liver of Sulphur, diluted in heated distilled water, is very useful in reestablishing a patina of a bronze coin that has been totally stripped of the original surface down to bare metal, with the caveat that this needs to be noted on the coin's label.  This substance needs to be quite diluted  - this gives more control over the level of darkness of the repatination.   Also, it is important to keep in mind that the coin will continue to darken after drying. 

It does takes some experience using this chemical whether through emersion or application with a cotton swab.

Also, depending on the alloy of the coin, brass versus bronze, the patination is different.  Byzantine bronzes seem to have a very high copper content, lending themselves to a darker shade of brown.  Roman bronzes, being primarily brass, seem to tone more in the dark yellow range.

I haven’t gotten too deep into the processes yet, as I’ve attempted to steer away from artificial patinas up until recently.

the several days I have attempted the sulfur of liver though, all results between LRB and Byzantine have resulted in grays to very dark grays. I’ve attempted the dilute and dilute with heat, however the coverage doesn’t seem to “stick” upon removal and drying, and can wipe off when using Ren Wax.

potentially needing some patience, and completing multiple dilute soaks to build up a lighter patina on the coin is needed. My issue is 2 small children constantly needing attention have rushed me through what I’ve done so far, finding “high strength works fast” .

more to attempt in this regard

[ela126]

1 hour ago, robinjojo said:

The brown, even patinas that we often see are probably mostly coins that have been cleaned long ago and re-toned naturally over time.  The coins with hard green and brown patinas, often of varying thicknesses, are the result of burial.  

As for distinguishing a natural brown patina with one that was brought about with a chemical, such as Liver of Sulphur, that's really difficult, since the natural patina and the latter type are both chemically induced, a natural reaction between the copper and sulphur, oxygen and moisture.  A bright coin, such as a US penny, will darken over time due to this reaction, a process of oxidation.  Using a chemical just speeds up the process, but the result is the same, at least for bronze or brass coins.  Silver is a totally different matter.

I’ve wondered this. Are brown patinas just coins that were stripped 100 years ago? Sounds like yes

[ela126]

2 hours ago, Nerosmyfavorite68 said:

So many of the Justinian I folles seem to have dark patinas.  I don't think they can all be fake.  I've always wondered if the oreo one, below, is a faux patina.

The second Justinian is fairly typical. It's darker in person than the photo.  Almost black.

A lot of the Savoca Byzantine AE's seem to have a uniform dark patina, even if they have some dirt on it.

The deep greenies (the green Justin I and II, respectively) seem to be much less common.

Do the Severan era as-sized Balkan provincials have a high copper content?  They seem to have a very high percentage of deep green patinas.

The dark patina with earthen highlights (bottom) is somewhat common from dealers who have closer to uncleaned selections.  The color of the metal peeking out from the dirt is pretty typical of Byzantines from the period.

I've noticed that the Sicilian ones are much more prone to being green.

 

 

Beautiful coins.
 

I have a few greenies around 820-870, almost universally green for what is in my collection.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I have a cheapie green Romanus I.  I don't know if the copper content had changed by then.  One almost never sees the later anonymous folles in green.

Here's also a green Maurice, which I bought for the  color.  Not sure if it's a natural color or not.

[Al Kowsky]

Personally I don't like to see Byzantine bronze coins stripped down to bare metal & repatinated ☹️. Most auction houses & vendors will photograph coins using artificial lighting & much editing before posting their coins, & this can give coins an unreal appearance. This has happened to me many times when I open the package to a coin shipped to me 🤨. The top coin pictured below is an auction house photo & the coin pictured below it is my photo using natural diffused sunlight.

When I compared the two coins I wondered if an old photo was used by the auction house & the coin was repatinated sometime after that photo was taken 🤔. NGC is good at spotting coins with an altered surface so I sent them the coin. The coin came back AU Strike 5/5, Surface 5/5 ☺️.

 

[ela126]

a smattering of most of my greener ones.

the Heraclius 12 doesn’t count as much as that’s malachite that I smoothed, not really patina but love how it turned out