The IMITATION VS ORIGINAL thread

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

Let's continue with one of the most produced types of Victorinus’coinage, the SALVS AVG. Its particularity is that the two mints under Victorinus minted issues of it, but with a different representation on the reverse, which makes it easy to classify them. Let us also remember that Cologne struck busts only cuirassed on the obverse, while Trier used draped and cuirassed.  Here we can notice that the style is sometimes unequal on the two sides of the same coin, the allegory on the reverse being much closer to the original than the bust on the obverse. Also, another error in the legend, the engraver having reversed the PF AVG in FP AVG! And why not a last interesting detail: the reverse with Salus (Health holding a patera with the right hand, feeding a snake wrapped around an altar), is attributed to the workshop of Trier, so the engraver was well informed, because he probably had an original piece at his disposal, since he produced a bust draped and cuirassed as it should be.

 

 

 

The AEQVITAS AVG reverse was the first type used at the Cologne mint in 269 AD, with engravers even depicting the bust of his predecessor Marius on the obverse of this first issue. Why ? Quite simply because Victorinus’ coronation took place around Trier, where logically the face of the new emperor was not known at the beginning of his reign. Obviously, these coins were they also imitated, as evidenced by the next piece. A very beautiful specimen, with a style close to the official versions, the legend being intelligible with well-formed letters. We note that the allegory on the reverse contains no error in the iconography, and the style of portraiture is the only obvious sign that it is not an official coin: the untrained eye will not be able to be not discern the difference, but examination of dozens of genuine pieces leads to this conclusion.

 

 

Let us therefore continue in our presentation of radiated imitations with a specimen representing the goddess PAX (Peace) turned to the left, holding a laurel branch in the right hand and a transverse scepter in the left. The usual V is present in the left field, as well as the star in the right. Again here we notice a noticeable difference between the quality of the engraving on the obverse and the reverse. One could certainly call the bust on the obverse "degenerate", since the style is rather rudimentary and barbaric, clearly indicating a contemporary forgery. On the other hand, on the reverse, the deity could easily be confused with an original version. As for the lettering, although well executed, we denote a fairly coarse style. This piece shows us that the allegory seems often easier to copy than the portrait of the monarch...

[John Conduitt]

I have a few, not necessarily Roman or Gallic Empire.

Original:

Gallic Import Bull MA Hemiobolion, 150-120BC

Massalia. Bronze, 15mm, 3.92g. Head of Apollo left. Bull butting right, MA above (for Massalia, usually ΜΑΣΣΑ) (ABC 115). Found in Dover, Kent on 25 Sep 2018. About 20 have been found in the UK.

Copy:

Thurrock Potin, 120-100BC

Cantii or Trinovantes tribe, imitating a hemiobolion from the Greek colony Massalia. Cast bronze, 17mm, 3.10g. Head of Apollo left. Bull butting right with central boss, exergual line below, MA above (S 62; ABC 120; VA 1402 'Trinovantian A').

[John Conduitt]

Original:

Constantius II Nummus, 351-361

Nicomedia. Bronze, 17mm, 2.63g. Bust of Constantius II, pearl-diademed, draped, cuirassed, right; D N CONSTAN-TIVS P F AVG. Soldier, helmeted, draped, cuirassed, advancing left, spearing fallen horseman with right hand and wearing shield on left arm; shield on ground to right; horseman wearing cap, facing soldier, extending right arm; FEL TEMP RE-PARATIO; mintmark SMN(A) (RIC VIII, 96). Ex Seaby. From the Chilbolton Down (Hampshire) Hoard c1950.

Copy:

Constantius II Barbarous Fallen Horseman, 350s

Bronze, 15mm, 1.59g. Pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right with coarse features, exaggerated hairlines and long diadem ties; garbled legend. Soldier spearing fallen horseman who is wearing broad-brimmed helmet, seated half upright and reaching backwards; garbled legend and mintmark.

Edited August 21, 2023 by John Conduitt

[John Conduitt]

Original:

Decentius Centenionalis, 351-353

Arles. Bronze, 22mm, 4.38g. Bust of Decentius, bareheaded, cuirassed, right; A behind bust; D N DECENTIVS CAESAR. Two Victories, winged, draped, facing each other, holding between them a wreath inscribed VOT/V/MVL/X; VICTORIAE DD AVG ET CAES; F in field. PAR in exergue (RIC VIII, 174). From the Compton Dundon (Somerset) Hoard 2017. Portable Antiquities Scheme: GLO-574C93.

Copy:

Barbarous Decentius Centenionalis, 350-353

Bronze, 14mm, 1.32g. Bare bust of Decentius right; partially retrograde (D N DECENT)IVS CAESAR. Two Victories standing, holding wreath; VICTORIAE DD AVG ET CAES. Found in Britain.

[hotwheelsearl]

Well here's an imitation, not sure what the original is though...

[DLTcoins]

7 minutes ago, hotwheelsearl said:

Well here's an imitation, not sure what the original is though...

Tetricus/ Salus? 

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/herakles_numismatics/71/product/tetricus_i_antoninianus_salus/1917623/Default.aspx

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by DLTcoins

[maridvnvm]

Original:-

Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SE-V PERT AVG COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICTOR SEV-E-R AVG, Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left
Minted in Emesa. Early A.D. 194
Reference:– BMCRE 399. RIC IV 428 (S). RSC 749

The imitation:-

Obv:– IMP CAE L SEPT ERT AVT COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:– VICTOR SEV-E-R AVG, Victory walking left, holding wreath in right hand, palm in left
Minted in unofficial mint
Reference:– copies (BMCRE 399. RIC IV 428 (S). RSC 749 )

[maridvnvm]

The original:-

Obv:–IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:– • T • R • P • III IMP • – • V COS • II (first I in form of Gamma), Two captives seated at base of trophy
Minted in Emesa. A.D. 195
Reference:– BMC 410. RIC 435. RSC 658.

2.93gms. 17.95mm. 30 degrees

The imitation:-

Obv:–IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:– T R P III IMP V COS II, Two captives seated at base of trophy
Copies a coin minted in Emesa. A.D. 194-195
Reference:– cf RIC IV 435

[hotwheelsearl]

10 hours ago, DLTcoins said:

Tetricus/ Salus? 

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/herakles_numismatics/71/product/tetricus_i_antoninianus_salus/1917623/Default.aspx

 

Makes sense. The “walk like an Egyptian” stance threw me off 

[velarfricative]

Original Heliokles tetradrachm, the last ruler before the nomads took over:

 

Yuezhi imitation, either by Kujula Kadphises or someone a bit earlier than him:

 

[DLTcoins]

8 hours ago, hotwheelsearl said:

Makes sense. The “walk like an Egyptian” stance threw me off 

The S-shaped arms are almost always preserved, even on the crudest Salus copies. The altar is further confirmation.

[maridvnvm]

The imitation:-

Decentius - Barbarious AE Maiorina

Obv:- D N DECENTIVS NOB CAES, Bare-headed, draped and cuirassed bust right
Rev:- VICTORIAE DD NN AVG E CAE, two Victory's standing facing each other, between them holding a shield resting on a short column, inscribed VOT V MVLT + in four lines
Barabrous imitation of the mint of Amiens (S-V//branch AMB branch). A.D. 351-353
Reference(s) – Bastien pl. 17, 32; C.-; RIC -; LRBC -.

This interesting ancient imitative piece combines both the mintmark of the mint at Ambianum, and the reverse field letters S-V which are only found on issues of Lugdunum

3.13 g. 21.63 mm. 180 degrees

The closest match that I have as an original:-

Decentius 
Obv:- D N DECENTIVS NOB CAES, Bare-headed, cuirassed bust right
Rev:- VICTORIAE DD N(sic) AVG ET CAE, Two Victory's standing facing each other, between them holding a shield, surmounted by a Chi-Rho inscribed VOT V MVLT X in four lines
Minted in Amiens (//AMB crescent). 6th Phase August - End A.D. 352
Reference(s) – cf Bastien 126 (reverse legend error); C.-; RIC 24 var (reverse legend error)

4.01 gms, 22.57 mm. 0 degrees

[maridvnvm]

I am sorry folks but I seem to have obtained quite a few of these....

The imitation:-

Septimius Severus barbarous denarius

Obv:– L SEPT SEVE PERT AVG IMP VIII, laureate head right
Rev:– MONE AVG, Moneta standing left, holding scales and cornucopiae
Barbarous copy imitating coins minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 196-197
Reference:– Copies similar to BMC 448 Note (citing Cohen 332 (no authority cited)). RIC - (cf 484(a) (rated S)). Cohen 332

The original:-

Obv:– L SEPT SEV PE-RT AVG IMP VIII, Laureate head right
Rev:– M-ONET AVG, Moneta standing left, holding scales and cornucopiae
Minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 196 - 197
Reference:– RIC 484(a) (Scarce)

[maridvnvm]

The imitation:-

Septimius Severus Barbarous/Imitative Denarius

Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SE_V PERT AVG COS II, Laureate head right
Rev:– BO...-ETOIVC, Fides standing left, basket of fruit in right hand, corn ears in left
Copies a coin minted in Emesa. A.D. 194-195
Reference:– cf RIC IV 369

Ex Zach Beastley (Beast) collection

The original:-

Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS I-I, Laureate head right
Rev: – BONI E-VENTVS, Bonus Eventus standing left holding basket of fruits in right hand, grain ears in left
Minted in Emesa, A.D. 194 - 195
References:– BMCRE 343, RIC 369, RCV02 6267, RSC 68
Die axis 0 degrees. Weight 3.35g

[Prieure de Sion]

A original type

 

Marcus Antonius; Denarius of the Roman Republican Period 32/31 BC; Material: Silver; Diameter: 19mm; Weight: 3.57g; Mint: Military Mint in the East; Reference: Crawford 544/36, CRI 380, BMCRR East 215, RSC 57; Provenance: Ex Cayón Numismática Spain; Obverse: Galley right, with sceptre tied with fillet on prow; above and below, inscription. Border of dots. The Inscription reads: ANT·AVG III·VIR·R·P·C for Antonius Augurus Triumviri Rei Publicae Constituandae ([Mark] Antony, Triumvirate for the Restoration of the Government); Reverse: Aquila (legionary eagle) between two standards; across eagle, inscription. Border of dots. The Inscription reads: LEG XX for legio vicesima (twentieth legion)

 

 

 

The type imitation

 

Marcus Antonius; Reign: Roman Republic (Mark Antony, Imperator); Mint: Patrae, Greece; Date: c. 32/31 BC; Nominal: Bronze; Material: AE; Diameter: 16mm; Weight: 1.95g; Reference: prototype CRI 349; Reference: prototype Crawford RRC 544/14 to 544/39; OCRE Online: http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-544.14; Obverse: Galley right, with sceptre tied with fillet on prow; above and below, inscription; Inscription: ANT AVG III V R P C; Translation: Antonius Augurus Triumviri Rei Publicae Constituandae; Translation: [Mark] Antony, Triumvirate for the Restoration of the Government; Reverse: Aquila (legionary eagle) between two standards; across eagle, inscription; Inscription: LEG [...]; Translation: Legio [?]

 

[Agrippa]

Tetricus, left bust.

SPES AVGG 

Imitation & original

Edited August 29, 2023 by Agrippa

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

4 hours ago, Agrippa said:

Imitation

Nice one, from the king collector of Gallic imitations. I’m sure many members here would be extremely impressed by a few pictures of your fantastic collection………

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

Another interesting one for sale now. The seller described it as «very very rare, only known from imitations. The only example that seem official ». (The reverse FIDES MILITVM is not known with the short obverse legend for Victorinus). You can get it for the modest price of 350 euros. By the way, another specimen (double die matching) was sold by Roma two weeks ago for… 30 GBP…

 

The Roma specimen:

The real thing:

 

 

 

[Orange Julius]

11 hours ago, Ocatarinetabellatchitchix said:

Another interesting one for sale now. The seller described it as «very very rare, only known from imitations. The only example that seem official ». (The reverse FIDES MILITVM is not known with the short obverse legend for Victorinus). You can get it for the modest price of 350 euros. By the way, another specimen (double die matching) was sold by Roma two weeks ago for… 30 GBP…

 

The Roma specimen:

The real thing:

 

 

 

Interesting... I wouldn't think those are imitations. They look official, even if the portrait style is a mushy. Here's my example with the longer legend. It's not pretty but the only one I have.