Collecting Roman coins

[dragonwalker]

I've always had a bit of an interest in collecting coins but  I haven't gotten serious about it. I've recently thought more about acquiring some nice examples of Roman imperial coins that I find interesting. I've watched some videos online about various strategies and tips on starting a collection and the background of ancient coin collecting. I don't see myself getting a large collection but a few pieces.

In particular it would be great to get a semi-decent silver denarius during the rein of Caesar Augustus (not posthumous and preferably with a bust of him on the obverse). I've looked on various sites recommended to me like Vcoins and there are some interesting examples. One of my big concerns as a huge amateur is getting a fake so I know eBay is not advisable and because dealers on Vcoins have a reputation to maintain, I'm likely to get a real coin. I'm not sure if this applies if I'm getting a slabbed NGC coin on eBay though.  

Not fully understanding the basis of valuation is another big issue because I'd like to get a coin worth its value. My budget might be low because I'd like to keep it around $200 and I'm seeing few nice examples in that range. My first question is what is a sweet spot for what I'm looking for? What are some sites that I should check out? 

If you guys think my budget is unreasonable then in order of other preferences I'd be looking at non-silver denarius.

Here is an example of a coin that somewhat approximates what I'm looking for: https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/savoca_gmbh__co_kg/234/product/augustus_27_bcad_14_denarius__lugdunum/1783141/Default.aspx

However I'm hoping to get something with a more crisp obv. Let me know what my best options are and any I may not be considering. 

    

 

[ambr0zie]

Welcome to ancient coins collecting. 

The coin you provided as an example is a very common and popular denarius of Augustus.
You will see this coin type (with small variations) on many, many auctions, with the quality of the coin ranging from worn slugs to XF or better examples. The price differs a lot, of course, depending on the conservation. 

I collect ancient coins for almost 3 years. The bad news is I have no Augustus denarii. When I get one, 99% it will be a different design because this one is way too common and although the design is interesting and with symbolic/historical importance (do you know who the reverse characters are?) I saw it too many times.

That's an aspect of ancient coins collecting, even if some types are very common (this denarius, the Tiberius tribute penny, the Athens old style owl tetradrachm), they are not cheap. 

But, to tell the full story, if you want an Augustus denarius AND you want a different type, they will be more expensive 🙂 Augustus denarii are NOT cheap. 

What I would highly recommend you is to start a collection of denarii from other emperors, you will get coins in that quality (or better) with more interesting reverses (at least for my tastes) and lower prices. Check out Trajan, Vespasian, Hadrian, Domitian, Antoninus Pius or empresses denarii - Crispina, Lucilla, Faustina I and II .... and the list is very open. 

$200 for that type? I think you can get a slightly better price in an auction (but check the extra fees though). 

5 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

If you guys think my budget is unreasonable then in order of other preferences I'd be looking at non-silver denarius.

 

Not sure what you mean by "non-silver denarius". Roman denarii (Republic and Empire) are silver coins. There are some exceptions, like limes denarii, but those were semi-official and appeared a little later. If you mean other denominations, they have other names.

Here is an article that will help you in your study 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/denom.html

[John Conduitt]

Buying on VCoins gives you a very high chance of avoiding a fake. Even slabbed coins on eBay are more likely to be fake than coins on VCoins, if you don't know what you're buying (slabs can also be fake). But that also means VCoins is the higher end of retail prices. You are paying for the dealer's expertise. You're unlikely to get an amazing deal. You're probably unlikely to be completely ripped off, too.

That shouldn't really matter if you're interested in the coin, not the investment, and you shop around. But you need to understand what you're buying. By looking at a lot of that type of coin, reading about it and learning why one is more expensive than another, you can understand the pricing. (So - this one is RIC 207. How does that compare to some of the other 276 Augustus denarii, with different amounts of wear?). Then you will know if you are paying a good price without asking. As ambr0zie said, you need to understand the varieties to know if the coin you want is common (and so should be cheaper) or is usually in poor condition (so ones in good condition are very expensive compared to others).

[Broucheion]

6 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

he coin you provided as an example is a very common and popular denarius of Augustus.

Hi @dragonwalker and @ambr0zie,

Did you know that Harvey Shore in the Jan 1996 issue of The Celator makes the argument that this type is the real Tribute Penny of the King James' Bible. I'm not sure if the PDF is still available online at Forvm on on the Archive.org.

Shore concludes:
"This is convincing, but not conclusive [ie, his arguments]. One swallow doesn't make a summer. Yet I found no contrary evidence, and so (on the balance of probabilities) it seems highly likely to me that the title of the Tribute Penny should these days be reassigned to the denarius of Augustus bearing the two Caesars on its reverse (Cohen 43, RIC 350, 8MC 519)."

I don't collect Roman coins so I can offer no opinion of my own. I'm just noting something interesting.

- Broucheion

[ambr0zie]

No clue. I remember I asked, probably on CT, if there is any historical proof that the Tiberius denarius with Livia/Pax is the tribute penny. The Bible does not offer enough details. 
I did not study this subject, but in my opinion there is a large chance that this is correct. I am assuming this because in the life time of Jesus, if He had a denarius in hand, there is a big possibility it was the Tiberius with Livia/Pax, becauase 1. it was in circulation in those times 2. it is the most common Tiberius denarius. 

So I think there is a low chance the coin in question was something like ...

 

BUT we all know that ancient denarii were in circulation for very long periods and the denarius could also be an Augustus one, and since the types with Caius and Lucius are the most common, there is a big chance it was that one. 

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the coin was a Julius Caesar portrait. All we know if it was a denarius with a portrait on it that people recognized as "Caesar'. 

I provided our new colleague a few examples of coins that are very common and appealing, for historical reasons. I prefer this term "tribute penny" when I am thinking about the Tiberius denarius with Livia/Pax. But as I said, I am not convinced that was THE tribute penny. 

[sand]

16 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

In particular it would be great to get a semi-decent silver denarius during the rein of Caesar Augustus (not posthumous and preferably with a bust of him on the obverse).

Hello @dragonwalker. Welcome to Nvmis Forvms. When you say "Caesar Augustus", are you looking for Julius Caesar? Or, are you looking for Augustus, the grandnephew and adopted son of Julius Caesar?

[dragonwalker]

Thank you everyone who responded. 

@ambr0zie The fact that the example I provided is a common example is actually fine with me because that presumably means the prices will be that much more reasonable. Although at an auction I may get a better deal I don't think I can reasonably be in a position to judge value well enough not to end up overpaying in an auction so I am very inclined to purchase at a fixed price where I have an opportunity to research and asks people's opinion. I misspoke about non-silver denarius, I meant to say an alternative if my budget is to low is non-silver coinage still under Augustus. Thank you for the link.

@John Conduitt That's interesting there are that many varieties under one ruler but not completely surprising considering his long rein. Is there a website where there are photos of all the variations and provides some general sense to their rarity? I do not expect that I can master all the nuances between the value of particular variations as I'd sooner buy a coin first.

@sand When I say Caesar Augustus I do mean Augustus, adopted son of Julius Caesar. This is mainly because from what I have seen, a denarius of Julius Caesar could be many multiples more expensive for an equivalent Augustus. Let me know if I'm wrong and it's possible to have one in the quality I'm looking for at around $200?   

[sand]

57 minutes ago, dragonwalker said:

@sand When I say Caesar Augustus I do mean Augustus, adopted son of Julius Caesar. This is mainly because from what I have seen, a denarius of Julius Caesar could be many multiples more expensive for an equivalent Augustus. Let me know if I'm wrong and it's possible to have one in the quality I'm looking for at around $200?   

I'm not very knowledgeable about the prices of the denarii of Julius Caesar or Augustus. What little I know, makes me think, that a Julius Caesar denarius with a portrait of Julius Caesar himself, would be a lot more expensive, than an Augustus denarius with a portrait of Augustus himself. If I remember correctly, there are also Julius Caesar denarii, which have portraits other than Julius Caesar (ancestors or deities, perhaps?), which have "Caesar" in the inscription. And, if I remember correctly, there may be Julius Caesar non-portrait denarii (with an image of an elephant?), which have "Caesar" in the inscription. However, if I remember correctly, even if a Julius Caesar denarius doesn't have a portrait of Julius Caesar himself, it probably costs way more than an Augustus denarius. There may also be Julius Caesar non-denarius coins, made of bronze, with no portrait (a bronze as, perhaps?), which may cost less than a Julius Caesar denarius, but I don't know for sure, I'm just guessing.

Edited July 6, 2023 by sand

[Roman Collector]

19 hours ago, dragonwalker said:

I've always had a bit of an interest in collecting coins but  I haven't gotten serious about it. I've recently thought more about acquiring some nice examples of Roman imperial coins that I find interesting. I've watched some videos online about various strategies and tips on starting a collection and the background of ancient coin collecting. I don't see myself getting a large collection but a few pieces.

In particular it would be great to get a semi-decent silver denarius during the rein of Caesar Augustus (not posthumous and preferably with a bust of him on the obverse). I've looked on various sites recommended to me like Vcoins and there are some interesting examples. One of my big concerns as a huge amateur is getting a fake so I know eBay is not advisable and because dealers on Vcoins have a reputation to maintain, I'm likely to get a real coin. I'm not sure if this applies if I'm getting a slabbed NGC coin on eBay though.  

Not fully understanding the basis of valuation is another big issue because I'd like to get a coin worth its value. My budget might be low because I'd like to keep it around $200 and I'm seeing few nice examples in that range. My first question is what is a sweet spot for what I'm looking for? What are some sites that I should check out? 

If you guys think my budget is unreasonable then in order of other preferences I'd be looking at non-silver denarius.

Here is an example of a coin that somewhat approximates what I'm looking for: https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/savoca_gmbh__co_kg/234/product/augustus_27_bcad_14_denarius__lugdunum/1783141/Default.aspx

However I'm hoping to get something with a more crisp obv. Let me know what my best options are and any I may not be considering. 

    

 

Welcome to NVMIS FORVMS, @dragonwalker! A denarius of Augustus with the Gaius and Lucius reverse type for $200 or less is a tall order. At that budget, expect it to grade F or aF and for it to have another issue, such as being off-center. Would you be able to go to $350 or $400? For $400, you should be able to get a nice VF example with decent centering and nice eye-appeal. If you're looking for pristine, expect to pay $750 or more. Other reverse types -- such as the bull type -- go for about $1000.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Roman Collector

[dragonwalker]

@Roman CollectorYes, I see what you mean. When looking at the higher price ranges like you said I found a nice example such as:

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/tom_vossen/165/product/augustus_27_bc14_ad_ar_denarius_371_gm_185mm_lugdunum_mint_struck_2_bc4_ad_ric_207/1864346/Default.aspx 

I really like how the detail in the hair on the bust comes out. 

Now the above Augustus is graded by the seller as a VF, if I compared it to a less popular emperor but still one of the 12 emperors like Vespasian like this one for example:

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/savoca_gmbh__co_kg/234/product/vespasian_6979_denarius_rome/1879565/Default.aspx

Which one of the two coins over time will see greater appreciation in value? I know this calls for some guess work but what has the pattern been over the years? Aside from my interest in the coin, I'd like to think that one I purchase will have some greater value in the future. 

While browsing around I also saw on the other side a lot of coins for very cheap $35 which might just be a fun thing to get a few coins and see where my interest goes. What could this seller mean by "housecleaning lot"? Does that mean it would require cleaning to look like the pictures above. Does this price sound right for a lot of 7 late Roman coins?

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/david_connors/41/product/7_later_roman_bronze_ae/1904715/Default.aspx

[SteveJBrinkman]

@dragonwalker,  Welcome to ancient numismatics.   I agree with most of what has been said here but I also have some advice that may be unpopular and up for debate.  If you are dead set to obtain a first ancient coin of Augustus, or for that matter any of the 12 Caesars, go for it.  But you should know that a $200 example of any of these silver denarii will not appreciate much at all and when you finally get a coin with so many quality issues, you may also value it less and less as you learn more about its condition flaws and acquire nicer examples in your collection. then some day, when you finally decide to upgrade the coin to a nicer example, you will almost certainly lose money.

I understand the allure and popularity of the 12 Caesar issues, but there are lots of historically significant, and beautiful later Roman imperial issues in silver and bronze where $200 can go a long way.  Here are a couple of examples:

I bought this nice portrait coin of Septimius Severus, c. 193-211 AD, the patriarch of the Severan dynasty for $75, admittedly more than two decades ago.  Its not a high grade coin, it has some wear and some reverse striking issues, but its free of corrosion, well centered and most importantly, has a good style portrait.   I'm pretty sure it has at least doubled in value since I purchased it.

Here is a $200 coin that I bought last year with a nice young portrait of Constantine the Great C. 307 AD, as Caesar.  I don't anticipate this example will lose much value over the years.  The guy is well known, even outside of the numismatic community, the portrait is good, and the history of this time period is fascinating.

If retaining the resale value of your collection is important to you, my advice has always been to get the finest example of a coin that your money can buy.  For most of us, this means postponing the 12 Caesar portrait coins until the right one comes up and you have enough in your numismatic fund to afford it.

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by SteveJBrinkman

[Valentinian]

On 7/5/2023 at 12:05 AM, dragonwalker said:

tips on starting a collection and the background of ancient coin collecting.

There is a lot to learn about ancient coins at my site here:
http://augustuscoins.com/ed/

I would not recommend buying the first Augustus denarius you showed us. It is a great type, but that example has too many "problems." I doubt you would remain happy with it for long. It is common and offered in many auctions, so that is not the last chance you will have to buy that type. Look around first. 

[LONGINUS]

Welcome to the forum, @dragonwalker ! 

There are many experienced collectors here and it’s a great place to get some solid advice and encouragement. 

 

[Severus Alexander]

For what you're after, I would strongly recommend trying to get one at auction. Here's a search at biddr (I used the search string "augustus denarius 14 27") which yields 119 coins right now: https://www.biddr.com/search?s=augustus+denarius+27+14

Bear in mind you'll generally have to pay approximately 20% more than the hammer for the buyer's premium, but you're sure to get a better coin for less money than you would on VCoins. As for authenticity, there's more risk at biddr than on VCoins, but it's not remotely as risky as Ebay. And I'm sure one of us on the forum would be happy to review a coin for you before you pay for it! (I'd be willing to do this if you pm me.)

Here's an Augustus denarius I got for a hammer of 240 USD:

Another possibility to consider would be a portrait quinarius. This type often comes reasonably priced:

The reverse is interesting, since it celebrates Augustus taking control of Asia after the defeat of Antony and Cleopatra. Quinarii are smaller than denarii at 14-16mm, but you might be able to score a nice portrait at a good price. (The one above cost me 110.)

Another option to consider would be a provincial bronze coin.  These can be had with nice portraits for way less than a denarius.  Consider this coin, for example:

The prows on the reverse celebrate Augustus's victory at Actium.  This coin is nice and big at 29mm.  You'd probably want one with a better portrait, which you could get for significantly less than your ceiling of 200 USD.  (This coin hammered at 35 euros.)

Try searching "augustus provincial" at biddr.

I hope that helps!  As for pricing, you can always look at similar examples on VCoins and aim to pay, say, 30-40% less than that for a coin of similar quality at auction. Another pricing resource is the Sixbid archive, https://sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/en , which will give you a good idea what these coins go for at auction in the last couple of years. There will be lots of examples of the Gaius and Lucius denarius that you linked in the OP, enough that you'll get a good feel for what any particular coin you're bidding on is worth. Just ignore any subtle details of variety, etc., since you yourself won't care about those. You want to know what a generic denarius with the Gaius and Lucius reverse is worth, and you shouldn't pay more than that, whatever the auction house says about a particular coin ("Rare large size lituus!!" yeah, whatever dude. 😆)

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Severus Alexander