Prieure de Sion Posted June 18, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 18, 2022 Seriously. Why did the round type prevail for coins? There were also square coins: https://www.ma-shops.de/prados/item.php?id=3875 But the majority should have been round coin discs over the millennia. Why? There would be more space for the inscription, more space for the contents of the obverse and reverse. Banknotes are also square. Why not the majority of coins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegandron Posted June 18, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 18, 2022 I wonder... is it because we are Western-Centric, therefore our perspective is skewed? India GandaharaAR Bent Barearly long type11.3g650-600 BCE(Double dots on both ends - hard-to-find) India - Shakya JanapadaAR 5-Shana6th-5th Century BCE25mm x 21mm, 7.05gObv: Central Pentagonal punch plus several banker's marksRev: BlankRef: Hirano Type I.8.2919 known.Coinage from the Ghaghara Gandak River regionMinted in the Shakya Janaprada during Siddhārtha Gautama's (Later the Buddha) lifetime while he was prince, and under the authority of his father as King Indian AE Square Fractional Karshapana punch 125 BCE 9.0x8.2mm 0.86g Ominus1CHICKETS from ASHOKAIndia Maurya ser VIB AR Karshapana punchmark 270-175 BCE ASHOKA Thrace Sarmatia - Olbia 5th C BCE AE Cast Dolphin 27mm 1.75g Thrace - Olbius AE Dolphin money Thrace - Olbius AE Dolphin money round verBONUS: Chinese Fish Money China Zhou Dynasty 1046-256 BCE AE Fish Money 67mm 9.5g AB Coole Enc Chinese Coins 6920ff EX: @Ken Dorney China Shang Dyn 1766-1154 BCE Ant Nose Ge Liu Zhu 2.6g 19.5mm x 11mm very scarce H 1.10 China Shang Dyn 1766-1154 BCE Ant Nose Ge Liu Zhu 17.4mm x 10mm very scarce H 1.10 China Shang 1766-1154 BCE or Zhou Dynasty Ghost Face Ant Nose 1.65g Hartill 1.4 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 18, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Alegandron said: I wonder... is it because we are Western-Centric, therefore our perspective is skewed? You have very beautiful examples there. Thank you! THAT is the question. My feeling is that the round coins have prevailed after all the past centuries. But you are right! Do I only see the "western" horizon? I have to admit that I have no idea what it looked like in Asia or other continents of the (ancient) world. Then I guess the first question would be - globally speaking - are there more round coins? Worldwide? Edited June 18, 2022 by Prieure de Sion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegandron Posted June 18, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said: Then I guess the first question would be - globally speaking - are there more round coins? Worldwide? In my experience in my lifetime traveling internationally, most of the coins that I have handled in transactions have been round. Perhaps humans have settled on that shape is overall best for massive everyday usage, with a few very cool deviations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPK Posted June 18, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 18, 2022 Is it perhaps because a round shape is more conducive to handling and transportation? I can imagine a square coin would be quicker to wear through bags, pockets, etc., while the other irregular shapes (dolphins, etc.) would be more difficult to produce in a consistently uniform weight. I don't know if this is why but it seems reasonable at least. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitzNigel Posted June 18, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 18, 2022 I have a couple thoughts here - and this is pure speculation. 1, I think we can blame the Greeks. They made round coins after the Lydians, and then those spread with the conquest of Alexander. @Alegandron’s examples above are mostly Indian, but the Indian coins mostly become round in shape after more extensive contact with the Greeks (although not all - there are those square Bactrian coins still). Aside from India and the Lydians/Greeks, the only other people who independently invent coins are the Chinese (to my knowledge - please correct me if I’m wrong). The Chinese had a wide assortment of shapes for coins as well, but the victor of the Warring states period, and thus the founder of the first Chinese empire used round coins. This then might be pure coincidence. But I half wonder if maybe it was also some type of anti counterfeiting measure. Is round a harder shape to produce? Square would be easy to cut from a sheet of metal, amd the earliest coins were really just lumps of metal. But I don’t know. I like @CPK’s theory too. We have that one Greek text that speaks of them carrying obols in the mouth - imagine doing that with the dolphin coins! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegandron Posted June 18, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 18, 2022 Personally, I agree @FitzNigel... perhaps earlier odd shaped coins were representation of existing trade items. However, over time and enormous human usage and experience, the best shape became generally a round disk. No sharp edges, ergo can be carried well in a pocket, pouch (or mouth 🙂 ), or purse. Generally, over time we all produce items that gravitate to best usage. We humans seem “down” on round! 😄 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 18, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted June 18, 2022 28 minutes ago, Alegandron said: In my experience in my lifetime traveling internationally, most of the coins that I have handled in transactions have been round. Perhaps humans have settled on that shape is overall best for massive everyday usage, with a few very cool deviations. Is this really the case, the advantages? 🙂 8 minutes ago, CPK said: Is it perhaps because a round shape is more conducive to handling and transportation? I can imagine a square coin would be quicker to wear through bags, pockets, etc., while the other irregular shapes (dolphins, etc.) would be more difficult to produce in a consistently uniform weight. That's the question! As far as I know, there were no trouser pockets in antiquity. Did they? So we just have to assume a purse. Doesn't it matter whether the coin is round or square? The practicality COULD actually have been a reason. But had this been considered at the time, which was more practical in the purse? Was this the reason? By the way, the advantage of a square coin is that it cannot roll away if it flies down to the ground 😄 How did people come up with the idea of making the coins round? Was it perhaps also a religious reason? The sun and the moon are round? But I don't know. 5 minutes ago, FitzNigel said: 1, I think we can blame the Greeks. They made round coins after the Lydians, and then those spread with the conquest of Alexander. @Alegandron’s examples above are mostly Indian, but the Indian coins mostly become round in shape after more extensive contact with the Greeks (although not all - there are those square Bactrian coins still). Ah that's interesting to know! And I think that would probably also be a good starting point for further considerations. a) Who brought round coins into play? b) Why did they become popular? Because as far as I know there were lots of weights or symbols as means of payment in the pre-coin era. Why did the round discs in particular become popular? Square discs could also have been used. 7 minutes ago, FitzNigel said: We have that one Greek text that speaks of them carrying obols in the mouth - imagine doing that with the dolphin coins! Ah, ok... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prieure de Sion Posted June 18, 2022 · Member Author Share Posted June 18, 2022 Edit. I find this Link - it is in German, but you can translate it with your browser. There are some interesting points. https://www.wertvolle-muenzen-sammeln.de/warum-sind-muenzen-eigentlich-rund/ Round rouletting Although the production of a round Schrötling is much more elaborate, no effort was spared in antiquity. Furthermore, think back to the Middle Ages. There, the mint master had to cut out round coin blanks from thin strips of silver sheet. Since everything was done by hand, the blank was not always round. Another negative point of round blanks are all the scraps left over from cutting. Although it was possible to melt them down again, it meant more work. Square coin blank Square coin blanks, on the other hand, can be produced quite easily from long metal strips without a lot of cutting and remnants. Now one can rightly ask why the round coin shape has prevailed anyway? So let's take a look at the next process: minting. And the positives for round coins: 1. Apart from the complex production of the blank, the round shape has certain advantages. For when striking the coin itself, with hammer and punch, the mintmaster does not have to realign the blank each time. To mint square coins, on the other hand, you would need a guide or a stop. Consequently, time and work are again made good here. Nevertheless, this advantage is not the main reason why the round coin shape has prevailed. Because this example only refers to the classic minting process with hammer and die. This was the case, for example, in the Middle Ages. On the other hand, the distribution of force plays a more important role in the mould. Strictly speaking, the force is distributed much better and more evenly on a round coin blank. On the other hand, a square coin can be prone to chipping and uneven minting depth. 2. Since artistic design plays a very important role on coins, this probably contributed greatly to the round shape. Consequently, motifs such as portraits and coats of arms can be much better accommodated in a circle than in a square. Incidentally, the circular shape had something sacred in antiquity, as it did among the Greeks. The Romans were also world champions in the production of coins. They not only minted money in large quantities, but also with an outstanding quality of motifs. Around these images, one already found a lettering at that time. Consequently, the lettering could be perfectly depicted on a round coin. The round shape also prevailed with old royal seals. After all, how could one reasonably accommodate written words, with the motif in the centre, on an angular shape? 3. Now that the round shape has proven to be better in production and design, it also brings decisive advantages in circulation. In short, round coins are much easier to handle. This is because they cannot get caught in the money or leather pouch. Beyond that, the edges of a square coin would break your trousers or purse. This crystallises a rather important aspect. Because the sharp edges also pose a certain risk of injury. On top of that, in daily hand-to-hand trade, the corners would only be a hindrance. 4. Force flow. Irrespective of this, there is always a higher force flow at edges. The consequence is that edges can break away more easily. This means that the money would break more quickly and be devalued. Especially with gold and silver coins from antiquity, the material value also reflected their circulation value. 5. Trimming coins. Another approach in favour of the circular shape is that it is more noticeable when a piece is missing. After all, in the past people liked to enrich themselves with the pure material value. Suppose you cut a strip off a square coin, the coin would still be square. In contrast, with a round coin it is immediately noticeable if a piece is missing. ------- Especially point 5 might have played a role. With a square coin, one could cancel the coin without perhaps noticing it. With a round coin, this is immediately noticeable. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegandron Posted June 18, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 18, 2022 I like the THOUGHT behind this coin! COMES WITH A LANYARD LOOP !!! Yeah! Way cool China Sui Dynasty 589-619 CE 4-Shu Hartill 13.53 w-hanger below RARE (I wonder if the Sui Dynasty would offer: "For an EXTRA 1 Shu, we sill give you a LANYARD to carry your Cash around!...shipping and handling will apply..." ?) 😄 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Alexander Posted June 18, 2022 · Supporter Share Posted June 18, 2022 What an interesting discussion! There seem to be a number of practical considerations that have contributed to the predominance of roundness in the long process of copying earlier coinages, basically a cultural evolutionary process. Going back to the origins in Greece (anumisgenesis? by comparison with abiogenesis) – this doesn’t apply to the independent origins in China and India – the first lumps of electrum were, well, lumps! And when you strike a lump of metal with a design, thus flattening it a bit, what’s the central tendency in the shape that results? (Not my coins/lumps!) 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UkrainiiVityaz Posted June 18, 2022 · Member Share Posted June 18, 2022 Y B normal, y not go full on cruciform like this Katangan cross money from the late 19th century? Even the Yapese had round "coins" enormous stone disks that once carved were never moved. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted June 18, 2022 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) The Chinese, in addition to the traditional cash coins, also created silver ingots call sycee, issued by banks and other private sources. Here's a typical "saddleback" example from Yunnan Province of around 4.5 taels by weight: Edited June 18, 2022 by robinjojo 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.