NewStyleKing Posted April 21, 2023 · Member Share Posted April 21, 2023 (edited) Recently sold by CNG was this specimen of Thompson number #3 from c 162 BC. Thompson #2 , second coin below has 2 symbols on the reverse, a kernos and bakhos , the Thompson #3 is generally a no symbol type but a bakhos still exists at the bottom of this coin prompting Thompson to place this coin at the beginning of her catalogue for Thompson #3. The other interesting thing as shown in my "standard" type Thompson #3 is that the second magistrate is spelled out Phani whilst the CNG specimen is a monogram version. The coin sold way above my modest bid for $1600 plus juice and I wonder what type of buyer was it...a new previously unrecognised expert on NewStyles or just an investor type. The coin is not usually in the condition for an investor, but who knows! At $1600 + is an example of the inflation of ancient coin prices that have essentially forced me off the market! I have paid more for special coins, 2 Palms, the only example in private hands in very good condition from Roma and Demeter & Artemis from the Selton collection , one of only 3 known and a late newStyle also in really good condition...so hopefully the guy who bought is a new collector with deep pockets. Where do all these coins go to? In some dark drawer along with a Eid Mar aureus or two? Enjoy John aka NewStyleKing Edited April 21, 2023 by NewStyleKing 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapphnwn Posted April 22, 2023 · Supporter Share Posted April 22, 2023 Many years ago I had something of the same issue. At the time I was collection the coins of the Roman mint of Carrhae in Mesopotamia. For a while everything was great and then came the drought. All my sources died up and I was getting Nada. I assumed that my nemesis was another collector. I contacted the auction house and asked them if they could contact this other individual so that I could open up a line of communication and they did and later he did. He collected the coins of Mesopotamia. We correspond regularly and some years later he purchased my collection. I would suggest that you try the same. However, I would say that their are a number of 'coin hoovers" out there who have really deep pockets and are trying to duplicate the British Museum or the ANS. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted April 22, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted April 22, 2023 (edited) That's a really nice early new style owl, John. I've had absolutely no luck obtaining even a halfway decent example of a low Thompson number owl. They are few and far in-between compared to the later issue. While new styles are not a primary focus for me, I do look around. Part of the problem with me, if it is really a problem, is that I limit my auction venues to very few, mostly Roma, for better or worse. I just don't want to be spread to thin, especially with fixed income. I did pick up a couple of new styles recently. This is from my local coin dealer. I used the lower date that is now generally in use. Athens, new style tetradrachm, 133/2 BC. Thompson 380c 17.02 grams The next owl you might recognize, having come out of the Roma auction that closed earlier this month. Since I don't have the financial resources to pursue every reverse variety, I try to be selective, picking ones that are of personal interest. The cicada type seems fairly common, looking at the Thompson reference online. Athens, new style tetradrachm, 159/8 BC. From Roma E-Sale 108, lot 256. Thompson 431i 16.69 grams The date for this coin I am sure is based on Thompson's original designation. What it the revised date for this type? Is there an available list online that I can bookmark? Thanks Edited April 22, 2023 by robinjojo 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewStyleKing Posted April 23, 2023 · Member Author Share Posted April 23, 2023 This is my list. The Coins c 99 BC to Sulla's siege maybe are not right, we don't know...I'm still actively pursuing any leads. Lorber, Meadows thinks that the early coin sequence and dating is correct at least to #22 as in Gaziantep Hoard. The lower dating is almost certainly right and I wish all other dating schemes would disappear! I was lucky when I started collecting hoards appeared on ebay and prices were good. As with the CNG example Thompson#'3 above Obv 8, there is a lot of variation in the early coinage as with the Bakhos being retained and the monogram being dropped...only to re-appear on the 2 serpents type! The same phanias? 1 164/3 No Symbol 2 Monograms 3 3 2 163/2 Kerchnos & Bakchos 2 Monograms 3 4 3 162/1 No Sign 2 Monograms 3 3 4 161/0 No Sign or Cornucopiae 2 Monograms 4 5 5 160/9 2 Palms 2 Monograms 1 2 6 159/8 Club 2 Monograms 7 7 7 158/7 Rudder 2 Monograms . 6 7~ 8 8 157/6 Nike 2 Monograms 7 8 9 156/5 Trophy 2 monograms 13 13 10 155/4 Ear of Grain 2 monograms 6 7 11 154/3 Caps of Dioscouri 2 monograms 9 10 12 153/2 Cicada 2 monograms Start of 1st controls 10 12 13 152/1 Two Serpents 2 monograms N 12 16 14 151/0 Term of Hermes 2 Monograms 7 7 15 150/9 Kernos AMMO - DIO Start of 2nd control not both or neither 8 9 16 149/8 Palm Leaf behind Owl POLU-TimX 1st control in field & 2nd on amphora together 10 11~12 17 148/7 Cornucopiae AMMO - DIO 2nd controls only 12 14 18 147/6 Trident Head ADEI - ELIO 2nd controls only 9 10 19 146/5 Cock with Palm XAPI - ERA 2nd controls only 9 10~12 20 145/4 Forepart of Bridled Horse Monogram--LUSIA 1st control on amphora 2nd in field/under 12 14~16 21 144/3 Thyrsos 2 Monograms 14 17 22 143/2 Apollo DIOPHA - DIODO Reverse 18 20 23 142/1 Macedonian Helmet & Star DEME - IERO overstrike 19 19 24 141/0 Eagle 2 Monograms 17 17 25 140/9 Nike holding Wreath note 2a KTESI - EUMA Order change from Thompson N 21 21 26 139/8 Aplustre note 2b 2 monograms Order change from Thompson 19 19 27 138/7 Helios Bust GLAU - ECHE N 20 20 28 137/6 Nike driving Quadriga MIKI - THEOPHRA 10 11 29 136/5 Lionskin Club & Bowcase HERE - ARISTOPH 3 magistrtates start here 12 12 30 135/4 Asklepios Snake & Stick MENED - EPIGENO N 9 9 31 134/3 Anchor & Star TIMARCHOU - NIKAGO 9 9 32 133/2 Winged Caduceus POLYCHARM - NIKOG 6 7 33 132/1 Forepart of lion DOROTHE - DIOPH 8 8 34 131/0 Elephant ANTIOCHIOS - NIKOG / KARAICHOS 6 6 35 130/9 Winged Thunderbolt THEOPHRA - SOTAS N 8 8 36 129/8 Dionysus,Thyrsus & Cup DIOGE - POSEI m 7 7 37 128/7 Cornucopia & Grain Stalk ACHAIOS - ELI m 8 8 38 127/6 Cicada LUSAN - GLAUKOS m 11 12 39 126/5 Eagle on Thunderbolt EPIGENE - SOSANDROS m 11 11 40 125/4 Tripod POLEMON - ALKETES m 18 18 41 124/3 Prow of Ship KARAICH - ERGOKLE m 18 19 42 123/2 Discouri POLEMON-ALKIDEM m 16 17 43 122/1 Nike APHRODISI - APOLECHI m 11 11 44 121/0 Three Graces EURYKLEI - ARIARA m N 16 16 45 120/9 Double Cornocopia APHRODIS - DIOGE 12 12 46 119/8 Helios in Quadriga DIONYSI - DIONYSI 25 25 47 118/7 2 Torches AMMONIOS - KALLIAS 15 15 48 117/6 Trophy on Prow THEOMISTO - THEOPOMITOS 14 14 49 116/5 Apollo Delios SOKRATES - DIONYSODO 15 15 50 115/4 Bunch of Grapes METRODOROS -MILTIADES / DEMOSTHEN 16 16 51 114/3 No Symbol DIOTIMOS - MAGAS 17 17 52 113/2 Triptolemus in Chariot EUMAREIDES - ALKIDAM / KLEOMEN 16 16 53 112/1 Demeter & 2 Torches CHARINAUTES - ARISTEAS 10 10 54 111/0 Artemis with Torch PHANOKLES - APOLLONIOS 13 13 55a 110/9 Artemis with Fawn EUBOYLIDES - AGATHOKLE Both in 13 55b 110/9 Bee ZOILOS - EUANDROS one year 13 56 109/8 Quiver & Bow DAMON - SOSIKRATES 12 12 57 108/7 Tyche EUMELOS - KALLIPHON* 16 16 58 107/6 Winged Tyche & Amphora A HERAKLEIDES - EUKLES 1 10 10 59 106/5 No Symbol THEODOTOS - KLEOPHANES 17 17 60 105/4 Winged Tyche & Amphora B HERAKLEIDES - EUKLES 2 N 22 22 61 104/3 Dionysus & Demeter ANDREAS - CHARINAUTES 12 12 62 103/2 Wreath IKESIOS - ASKLEPIADES 11 11 63 102/1 Dionysus Mask & Thyrsus TIMOSTRATOS - POSES N 14 14 64 101/0 Ears of Grain AMPHIKRATES - EPISTRATOS 15 15 65 100/9 Tyche Staff & Cornocopia DOSITHEOS - CHARIAS N** 29 29 66 99/8 Gorgon Head +++ NIKETES - DIONYSUS M 33 33 67 98/7 Pegasos +++ ARISTION - PHILON M 30 31 68 97/6 Caps of Dioscouri +++ DEMETRIOS - AGATHIPPOS N * 47 47 69 96/5 Winged Agon AROPOS - MNASAGO ? 25 25 70 95/4 Coiled Snake XENOCLES - HARMOXENOS (l) 2 Magistrates R 19 20 71 94/3 Hermes / No sign NIKOGENES - KALLIMACHOS 2 & 3 Magistrates 17 17 72 93/2 Headdress of Isis DEMEAS - HERMOKLES 3 Magistrates N R 17 18 73 92/1 Dolphin & Trident XENOCLES- HARMOXENOS (ll) 2 Magistrates R 42 42 74 91/0 Kerchnos note 1 MNASEAS - NESTOR 2 Magistrates R 10 10 75 90/9 Roma XENOCLES - HARMOXENOS (lll) 2 Magistrates R 14 14 76 89/8 Roma & Nike KOINTOS - KLEAS 3 Magistrates R 7 7 77 88/7 Griffin APELLIKON - GORGIAS 3 Magistrates M 12 12 78 87/6 Star & 2 Crescents note 4 KING MITHRADATES- ARISTION 2 Magistrates from now M 3 4 79 86/5 2 Ears of Corn KOINTOS - CHARMOST * Imitation Restored* 2 2 80 85/4 Beatyl with Fillets KLEOPHANES - EPITHETES N NO Z 7 7 81 84/3 Harmodios & Aristogeiton MENTOR - MOSCHION 8 8 82 83/2 Isis ARCHITIMOS - DEMETRI 7 7 83 82/1 Poppy Head ** LUSANDROS - OINOPHILOS 6 6 84 81/0 Demeter Single Torch ** AMPHIAS - OINOPHILOS 10 10 85 80/9 Ares ? ** EUMELOS - THEOXENIDES 8 8 86 79/8 Stag ** NESTOR - MNSEAS N 17 17 87 78/7 Bakchos ** SOTADES - THEMISTOKLES 6 6 88 ?? Demeter & Artemis ** LYKIOS - ANTIKRATHES 1 1 89 ?? Herekles ** PANTAKLES - DEMETRIOS 2 2 90 ?? Looped Fillet ** THEOTHRASTOS - THEMISTO 1 1 91 ?? Sphinx ** DIOPHANTOS - AISCHINES 1 1 92 ?? Isis ** DEMEAS - KALLIKRATIDES 2 2 93 ?? Apollo with Lyre note 3 MNASTORGORAS - MENTOR 0 1 94 ?? Helmet ALKETE - EYAPON 2 2 95 ?? Dionysus DIONYSIOS - MNASTAGORAS 1 1 96 ?? Apollo Lykeios EPIGENES - XENON 4 4 97 ?? Demeter MENEDEMOS - TIMOKRATES 4 4 98 ?? Hekate MENNEAS - ERODES 1 1 99 ?? Winged Caduceus DIONYSIOS - DEMOSTRATOS 1 1 100 ?? Cicada No tetradrachms known (Democharcs-Pammenes) 0 0 101 ?? Asklepios DIOKLES - LEONIDES 1 1 102 ?? Dionysus PHILOKRATHES - ERODES 1 1 103 ?? Triptolemus KALLIMAXOS - EPIKRATES 2 2 104 ?? Filleted Thyrsos ARCHITIMOS - PAMMENES 4 4 105 ?? Hygieia DIOKLES - TODEY - MEDIOS 3 3 106 ?? Demeter APELLIKON - ARISTOTELES 1 1 107 ?? Head of Eagle note 5 HERAKLON - ERAKLEIDES 1 1 108 ?? Hekate TRYPHON - POLUCHARMOS 1 1 109 ?? Nike PHILOKRATHES - KALLIPHON 3 3 110 ?? Dionysos TO TRI DIOKLES - DIODOROS 2 2 111 ?? Athena Parthenos DIOKLES - MEDIOS 1 1 112 53/42 BC? Artemis END of NEW STYLE COINAGE ?? APOLECHIS - LYSANDROS 1 1 Note 1 Here because of Morkholm " The beginning of Athenian New Style silver coinage" ANSMN 29 1984 Note 2a, 2b Order change : H. B.Mattingly " Some Third magistrates in the Athenian New Style silver coinage" J Hell Stud 1971 Note 3 Hierpetyna Hoard- New tetradrachm " The Hierapytna Hoard - A Supplement" Revue Belge de Numasmatique 1975 O.Carramessini- Oeconomides & Fred Kleiner. Habicht 1994 does not have this coin in his list- a fatal weakness? m Sequence from :Meadows " "Thasos" / New Style Hoard" in Coin Hoards 9 *** Sequence from Morkholm " The beginning of Athenian New Style silver coinage" ANSMN 29 1984 +++ Sequence from "Review of LGPN 2" H.B. Mattingly NC 1997 Thompson knew 110 issues NOW 113, consisting of the Star & Crescent King Mithradates " special issue", restoration of the KOINTOS "imitation" and the NEW MNESTAGORAS- MENTOR SEATED APOLLO with LYRE from the Hierapytna hoard. Does the Slave Revolt / No Coinage year actually add a year or even exist? The V large issue of Caps of Dioscuri .issue 69 has been stated to be a correction for a no issue or a very low previous issue due to the Slave revolt at Laurion. There is no room or evidence for a very low issue previous. note 4 Morkholm has King Mithradates as issue 78 because Fawn / Bee given 1 issue number since BOTH only in one year N* New intercalary : MacDonald, D * A new Athenian intercalary tetradrachm" SM 192 1999 ** Habicht, Ch " zu den munzmagistraten der Silberpragung des Neuen Stils" Chiron 1991 Habicht does not include the APOLLO with LYRE. NEW COIN and just basically follows Thompson each descending year down to 54/3 BC. Not defensible really because of so few coins and likely new finds. So stopped at Backhos. note 5 A die link, but not absolute positioning from the "Hierpetyna Hoard- New tetradrachm " The Hierapytna Hoard - A Supplement" Revue Belge de Numasmatique 1975 O.Carramessini- Oeconomides & Fred Kleiner. Note 6 Doubt cast on the meaning of control letters due to “The Agrinion Hoard”, Thompson, M., ANS 1968 N** Coin Hoards 1 RNS 1975 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefactor robinjojo Posted April 23, 2023 · Benefactor Benefactor Share Posted April 23, 2023 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deinomenid Posted April 26 · Supporter Share Posted April 26 (edited) On 4/23/2023 at 4:43 AM, NewStyleKing said: This is my list. Please could you remind me what the column headings are. Second one is dates, is the first Thompson or you? And the 2 columns on the far right. Edited April 26 by Deinomenid typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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