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An interesting recent sale


NewStyleKing

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Recently sold by CNG was this specimen of Thompson number #3 from c 162 BC.

Thompson #2 , second coin below has 2 symbols on the reverse, a kernos and bakhos , the Thompson #3 is generally a no symbol type but a bakhos still exists at the bottom of this coin prompting Thompson to place this coin at the beginning of her catalogue for Thompson #3. The other interesting thing as shown in my "standard" type Thompson #3 is that the second magistrate is spelled out Phani whilst the CNG specimen is a monogram version.

The coin sold way above my modest bid for $1600 plus juice  and I wonder what type of buyer was it...a new previously unrecognised expert on NewStyles or just an investor type.  The coin is not usually in the condition for an investor, but who knows! At $1600 + is an example of the inflation of ancient coin prices that have essentially forced me off the market!  I have paid more for special coins, 2 Palms, the only example in private hands in very good condition from Roma and Demeter & Artemis from the Selton collection , one of only 3 known and a late newStyle also in really good condition...so hopefully the guy who bought is a new collector with deep pockets.  Where do all these  coins go to? In some dark drawer along with a Eid Mar aureus or two?

Enjoy

John aka NewStyleKing

CNG T 8.jpg

Kernos Rev 2.gif

LANZ PHANI REV.JPG

Edited by NewStyleKing
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Many years ago I had something of the same issue. At the time I was collection the coins of the Roman mint of Carrhae in Mesopotamia. For a while everything was great and then came the drought. All my sources  died up and  I was getting Nada. I assumed that my nemesis was another collector.  I contacted the auction house and asked them if they could contact this other individual so that I could open up a line of communication and they did and later he did. He collected the coins of Mesopotamia. We correspond regularly and some years later he purchased my collection. I would suggest that you try the same. However, I would say that their are a number of 'coin hoovers" out there who have really deep pockets and are trying to duplicate the British Museum or the ANS.  

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That's a really nice early new style owl, John.  I've had absolutely no luck obtaining even a halfway decent example of a low Thompson number owl.  They are few and far in-between compared to the later issue.  While new styles are not a primary focus for me, I do look around.  Part of the problem with me, if it is really a problem, is that I limit my auction venues to very few, mostly Roma, for better or worse.  I just don't want to be spread to thin, especially with fixed income.

I did pick up a couple of new styles recently.

This is from my local coin dealer.  I used the lower date that is now generally in use.

 Athens, new style tetradrachm, 133/2 BC.

Thompson 380c

17.02 grams

D-CameraAthensnewstyletetradrachm133-2BCThompson380_c17.02grams4-22-23.jpg.f3658ac79f84a3219d67a6601a852b75.jpg

 

The next owl you might recognize, having come out of the Roma auction that closed earlier this month.  Since I don't have the financial resources to pursue every reverse variety, I try to be selective, picking ones that are of personal interest.  The cicada type seems fairly common, looking at the Thompson reference online.

Athens, new style tetradrachm, 159/8 BC. From Roma E-Sale 108, lot 256.

Thompson 431i

16.69 grams

The date for this coin I am sure is based on Thompson's original designation.  What it the revised date for this type?  Is there an available list online that I can bookmark?  Thanks

D-CameraAthensnewstyletetradrachm159-8BCThompson431i16.69gramsRoma1082564-22-23.jpg.91a4dc62250bd228b6caaf5602a5543f.jpg

Edited by robinjojo
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This is my list. The Coins c 99 BC to Sulla's siege maybe are not right, we don't know...I'm still actively pursuing any leads. Lorber, Meadows thinks that the early coin sequence and dating is correct  at least to #22 as in Gaziantep Hoard. The lower dating is almost certainly right and I wish all other dating schemes would disappear!

I was lucky when I started collecting hoards appeared on ebay  and prices were good. As with the CNG example Thompson#'3 above Obv 8, there is a lot of variation in the early coinage as with the Bakhos being retained and the monogram being dropped...only to re-appear on the 2 serpents type! The same phanias?  

1 164/3 No Symbol 2 Monograms           3 3  
2 163/2 Kerchnos  & Bakchos 2 Monograms           3 4  
3 162/1 No Sign   2 Monograms           3 3  
4 161/0 No Sign or Cornucopiae 2 Monograms           4 5  
5 160/9 2 Palms 2 Monograms           1 2  
6 159/8 Club 2 Monograms                  7 7  
7 158/7 Rudder 2 Monograms       .           6    7~ 8  
8 157/6 Nike  2 Monograms           7 8  
9 156/5 Trophy  2 monograms           13 13  
10 155/4 Ear of Grain 2 monograms           6 7  
11 154/3 Caps of Dioscouri 2 monograms              9 10  
12 153/2 Cicada  2 monograms    Start of 1st controls           10 12  
13 152/1 Two Serpents  2 monograms        N         12 16  
14 151/0 Term of Hermes 2 Monograms           7 7  
15 150/9 Kernos  AMMO - DIO   Start of  2nd control  not both or neither           8 9  
16  149/8   Palm Leaf behind Owl   POLU-TimX    1st control in field & 2nd  on amphora together                     10 11~12  
17 148/7 Cornucopiae  AMMO - DIO   2nd controls only           12 14  
18 147/6 Trident Head  ADEI - ELIO    2nd controls only           9 10  
19 146/5 Cock with Palm  XAPI - ERA    2nd controls only           9 10~12  
20 145/4 Forepart of  Bridled Horse Monogram--LUSIA   1st control on amphora 2nd in field/under      
         
 
   
 
 
  12 14~16  
21 144/3 Thyrsos  2 Monograms       14 17  
22 143/2 Apollo DIOPHA - DIODO    
 
Reverse  18 20  
23 142/1 Macedonian Helmet & Star  DEME - IERO            overstrike 19 19  
24 141/0 Eagle  2 Monograms           17 17  
25 140/9 Nike holding Wreath    note 2a KTESI - EUMA        Order change from Thompson      N         21 21  
26 139/8 Aplustre     note 2b 2 monograms             Order change from Thompson           19 19  
27  138/7   Helios Bust GLAU - ECHE    N         20 20  
28  137/6   Nike driving Quadriga MIKI - THEOPHRA    
 
   
 
    10 11  
29  136/5   Lionskin Club & Bowcase HERE - ARISTOPH   3 magistrtates start here         12 12  
30 135/4  Asklepios Snake & Stick MENED - EPIGENO    N         9 9  
31  134/3   Anchor & Star TIMARCHOU - NIKAGO         
 
   
 
    9 9  
32 133/2   Winged Caduceus POLYCHARM - NIKOG         6 7  
33 132/1  Forepart of lion DOROTHE - DIOPH           8 8  
34 131/0  Elephant ANTIOCHIOS - NIKOG / KARAICHOS 
             
   
     
 
 
   
 
 
 
        6 6  
35 130/9  Winged Thunderbolt THEOPHRA - SOTAS    N         8 8  
36 129/8  Dionysus,Thyrsus & Cup DIOGE - POSEI                       m           7 7  
37 128/7   Cornucopia & Grain Stalk ACHAIOS - ELI                        m           8 8  
38 127/6  Cicada  LUSAN - GLAUKOS                m    
 
   
 
    11 12  
39 126/5   Eagle on Thunderbolt EPIGENE - SOSANDROS     m         11 11  
40 125/4   Tripod POLEMON  - ALKETES         m           18 18  
41 124/3        Prow of Ship KARAICH - ERGOKLE           m           18 19  
42 123/2  Discouri  POLEMON-ALKIDEM            m           16 17  
43 122/1   Nike APHRODISI - APOLECHI      m    
 
   
 
    11 11  
44 121/0   Three Graces EURYKLEI - ARIARA             m    N       16 16  
45 120/9  Double Cornocopia APHRODIS - DIOGE     
 
   
 
    12 12  
46 119/8 Helios in Quadriga DIONYSI - DIONYSI           25 25  
47 118/7 2 Torches AMMONIOS - KALLIAS          15 15  
48 117/6 Trophy on Prow THEOMISTO - THEOPOMITOS            14 14  
49 116/5 Apollo Delios SOKRATES - DIONYSODO            15 15  
50 115/4 Bunch of Grapes METRODOROS -MILTIADES / DEMOSTHEN             16 16  
51 114/3 No Symbol DIOTIMOS - MAGAS            17 17  
52 113/2 Triptolemus in Chariot EUMAREIDES - ALKIDAM / KLEOMEN       
 
   
 
  16 16  
53 112/1 Demeter & 2 Torches CHARINAUTES - ARISTEAS           10 10  
54 111/0 Artemis with Torch PHANOKLES - APOLLONIOS 
         
   
 
 
 
   
 
      13 13  
55a 110/9  Artemis with Fawn  EUBOYLIDES - AGATHOKLE     Both in           13    
55b 110/9 Bee ZOILOS - EUANDROS                one year              13  
56  109/8  Quiver & Bow   DAMON - SOSIKRATES              12 12  
57 108/7 Tyche  EUMELOS - KALLIPHON*           16 16  
58 107/6 Winged Tyche & Amphora  A HERAKLEIDES -  EUKLES   1      
 
   
 
  10 10  
59 106/5 No Symbol THEODOTOS - KLEOPHANES              17 17  
60 105/4 Winged Tyche & Amphora  B HERAKLEIDES -  EUKLES  2    N  
 
   
 
    22 22  
61 104/3 Dionysus & Demeter ANDREAS - CHARINAUTES         12 12  
62 103/2 Wreath IKESIOS - ASKLEPIADES         11 11  
63 102/1 Dionysus Mask & Thyrsus TIMOSTRATOS - POSES    N  
     
 
 
 
 
    14 14  
64 101/0 Ears of Grain AMPHIKRATES - EPISTRATOS          15 15  
65 100/9 Tyche Staff & Cornocopia DOSITHEOS - CHARIAS    N**     29 29  
66 99/8 Gorgon Head   +++ NIKETES - DIONYSUS    
 
   
 
  M 33 33  
67 98/7 Pegasos  +++ ARISTION - PHILON       M 30 31  
68 97/6 Caps of Dioscouri  +++ DEMETRIOS - AGATHIPPOS    N *         47 47  
69 96/5 Winged Agon  AROPOS - MNASAGO    
 
   
 
  ? 25 25  
70 95/4 Coiled Snake   XENOCLES - HARMOXENOS (l)     2 Magistrates       R 19 20  
71 94/3 Hermes / No sign   NIKOGENES - KALLIMACHOS        2 & 3 Magistrates           17 17  
72 93/2 Headdress of Isis  DEMEAS - HERMOKLES                 3 Magistrates    N  
 
   
 
  R  17 18  
73 92/1 Dolphin & Trident   XENOCLES- HARMOXENOS (ll)      2 Magistrates        R 42 42  
74 91/0 Kerchnos   note 1 MNASEAS - NESTOR                       2 Magistrates         R  10 10  
75 90/9 Roma  XENOCLES - HARMOXENOS (lll)    2 Magistrates    
 
   
 
  R 14 14  
76 89/8 Roma & Nike  KOINTOS - KLEAS                                  3 Magistrates    
 
   
 
R 7 7  
77 88/7 Griffin  APELLIKON - GORGIAS                      3 Magistrates       M 12 12  
78 87/6 Star & 2 Crescents  note 4 KING MITHRADATES- ARISTION   2 Magistrates from now                     M 3 4  
79 86/5 2 Ears of Corn  KOINTOS - CHARMOST * Imitation Restored*            2 2  
80 85/4 Beatyl with Fillets  KLEOPHANES - EPITHETES                      N   NO Z   7 7  
81 84/3 Harmodios & Aristogeiton  MENTOR - MOSCHION    
 
   
 
    8 8  
82 83/2 Isis  ARCHITIMOS - DEMETRI          7 7  
83 82/1 Poppy Head ** LUSANDROS - OINOPHILOS           6 6  
84 81/0 Demeter Single Torch ** AMPHIAS - OINOPHILOS           10 10  
85 80/9 Ares ? ** EUMELOS - THEOXENIDES           8 8  
86 79/8 Stag ** NESTOR - MNSEAS     N         17 17  
87 78/7 Bakchos ** SOTADES - THEMISTOKLES           6 6  
88 ?? Demeter & Artemis ** LYKIOS - ANTIKRATHES           1 1  
89 ?? Herekles ** PANTAKLES - DEMETRIOS           2 2  
90 ?? Looped Fillet ** THEOTHRASTOS - THEMISTO           1 1  
91 ?? Sphinx ** DIOPHANTOS - AISCHINES           1 1  
92 ?? Isis  ** DEMEAS - KALLIKRATIDES           2 2  
93 ?? Apollo with Lyre note 3 MNASTORGORAS - MENTOR             0 1  
94 ?? Helmet ALKETE - EYAPON           2 2  
95 ?? Dionysus DIONYSIOS - MNASTAGORAS           1 1  
96 ?? Apollo Lykeios EPIGENES - XENON           4 4  
97 ?? Demeter MENEDEMOS - TIMOKRATES           4 4  
98 ?? Hekate MENNEAS - ERODES           1 1  
99 ?? Winged Caduceus DIONYSIOS - DEMOSTRATOS           1 1  
100 ?? Cicada No tetradrachms known (Democharcs-Pammenes)           0 0  
101 ?? Asklepios DIOKLES - LEONIDES           1 1  
102 ?? Dionysus PHILOKRATHES - ERODES           1 1  
103 ?? Triptolemus KALLIMAXOS - EPIKRATES           2 2  
104 ?? Filleted Thyrsos ARCHITIMOS - PAMMENES            4 4  
105 ?? Hygieia DIOKLES - TODEY - MEDIOS           3 3  
106 ?? Demeter APELLIKON - ARISTOTELES           1 1  
107 ?? Head of Eagle   note 5 HERAKLON - ERAKLEIDES    
 
   
 
    1 1  
108 ?? Hekate TRYPHON - POLUCHARMOS         1 1  
109 ?? Nike PHILOKRATHES - KALLIPHON           3 3  
110 ?? Dionysos TO TRI  DIOKLES - DIODOROS           2 2  
111 ?? Athena Parthenos DIOKLES - MEDIOS           1 1  
112 53/42 BC? Artemis  END of NEW STYLE COINAGE ?? APOLECHIS - LYSANDROS           1 1  
  Note 1   Here because of Morkholm  " The beginning of Athenian New Style silver coinage" ANSMN 29  1984                 
  Note 2a, 2b   Order change : H. B.Mattingly  " Some Third magistrates in the Athenian New Style silver coinage" J Hell Stud 1971                 
  Note 3   Hierpetyna Hoard- New tetradrachm  " The Hierapytna Hoard - A Supplement" Revue Belge de Numasmatique 1975 O.Carramessini- Oeconomides & Fred Kleiner.   Habicht 1994 does not have this coin in his list- a fatal weakness?                
  m   Sequence from :Meadows   " "Thasos" / New Style Hoard"  in Coin Hoards 9                
  ***   Sequence from Morkholm " The beginning of Athenian New Style silver coinage" ANSMN 29  1984                
  +++   Sequence from "Review of LGPN 2"   H.B. Mattingly NC 1997                
      Thompson knew 110  issues NOW 113, consisting of the Star & Crescent King Mithradates " special issue", restoration of the KOINTOS "imitation" and the NEW MNESTAGORAS- MENTOR  SEATED APOLLO with LYRE from the Hierapytna hoard. Does the Slave Revolt / No Coinage  year actually add a year or even exist?  The V large issue of Caps of Dioscuri .issue 69 has been stated to be a correction for a no issue or a very low previous issue due to the Slave revolt at Laurion. There is no room or evidence for a very low issue previous.                
  note 4    Morkholm has King Mithradates as issue 78 because Fawn / Bee given 1 issue number since  BOTH only in one year                
  N*   New intercalary :  MacDonald, D  * A new Athenian intercalary tetradrachm" SM 192 1999                
  **   Habicht, Ch " zu den munzmagistraten der Silberpragung des Neuen Stils"  Chiron 1991 Habicht does not include the APOLLO with LYRE. NEW COIN and just basically follows Thompson  each descending year down to  54/3 BC. Not defensible really because of so few coins and likely new finds. So stopped at  Backhos.                
  note 5   A die link, but not absolute positioning from the "Hierpetyna Hoard- New tetradrachm  " The Hierapytna Hoard - A Supplement" Revue Belge de Numasmatique 1975 O.Carramessini- Oeconomides & Fred Kleiner.                
                                                                                                                Note 6                          Doubt cast on the meaning of control letters due to “The Agrinion Hoard”, Thompson, M.,   ANS 1968      
                                                                                           
N**     Coin Hoards 1 RNS 1975              
               
                       
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