What pct. of coins come to dealers as uncleaned?

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I've always wondered, in what state do most new coins come to dealers?  Uncleaned?  Semi-uncleaned?  Or, as one sees them for sale?

I've been on an uncleaned (or semi-uncleaned, a true uncleaned covered with dirt is fairly rare) kick lately. I now have most denominations in such a state.  I think it's interesting to have a handful of 'before' coins.

[expat]

I am the same, I like to see what the dealers have, in what state. I think they purchase large lots and the easier cleaned coins are their priority to get them into fixed price lists as soon as possible. Some semi-cleaned ones in small lots are absolutely fine for me to collect and there are some bargains to be had.

[Deinomenid]

Coincidentally I asked a couple of dealers this at the NY International. Answers  I got were high end dealers almost never (I think the joke was about NAC never seeing physically dirty coins) and  that depending on the type it was a looting flag. I was asking about  Sicilian and Greek  Italian coins mostly and was told  if you get those with much dirt on you've likely got a looting  issue on your hands.

But that aside the general view was the cheaper the type the more likely the dirt, but still unusual. For what  it's worth...

As an aside,  I can't remember the last  time  I saw an uncleaned genuine Greek Sicilian coin (aside from horn silver or bronze disease etc).

 

 

[KenDorney]

In this day and age the vast majority of dealers do not see uncleaned coins.  For the most part, any coin of any interest has already been cleaned, the only remaining coins are pure junk worth pennies (but those on Ebay will still pay up to several dollars).

[John Conduitt]

I see several dealers buy disclaimed hoards. Those still need a lot of cleaning.

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

Zurquieh has a lot of semi-uncleaned coins (and a few truly uncleaned; a truly uncleaned coin is one with packed-on dirt). 

Dirtyoldcoins (I think it was dirtyoldcoins) in 2004 had actual uncleaned LRB's.  Dirtyoldcoins 2022 had some categories of actual semi-uncleaned, although about 70% of the 'uncleaneds' I purchased were in no way uncleaned, unless one chose the right category.  Filthy, yes, uncleaned no; these were unusually dirty stripped coins.  To be fair, some of the ones in the 'right' categories were pretty pleasing for the price.  One also doesn't expect a super great coin in the $3 category. 

I stopped fooling around with the super-cheapie uncleaneds. They just really weren't worth fooling with. I received much more satisfaction with the $15+ category.  There's enough before examples in my collection where I can ease off the uncleaned category. I still lack uncleaned non Hellenistic Greek Tetradrachms or archaic AR but one doesn't really expect to find those.

The (semi) uncleaneds I usually go after are Parthian/Sassanian AR and certain provincial Tetradrachms.

 

 

[robinjojo]

I think a key question is what kind of dealer is being discussed?  In the world of ancient coins, the ones in our collections have traveled various routes to arrive at their current destinations.  Some dealers specialize in bulk lots of ungraded (at least in theory) coins from hoards.  Other dealers, especially those in geographical proximity of coin hoard source countries, such as Syria, probably grade the coins as they arrive.  How many are "uncleaned"? That's hard to say, personally, since I don't have any first hand experience with the ins and outs of this trade.  My general feeling is that most coins receive at least a rudimentary cleaning, at least based on my experience with the pharaonic owls, but again it is hard to know what state they were in on discovery.  None of this information is documented, for obvious reasons. 

Now further up the chain of dealers, and auction houses for that matter, the percentage of coins no cleaned surely must be in the minority, since there is a clear economic incentive  to sell coins that are appealing to the general public, even if that means bright and over cleaned, at least for silver coins.  Ancient coins, especially silver coins are actually quite difficult to find in "as found" or even close to this state.  As proof, just look at the ocean of standardized classical owls on the market.  I've never really seen one with evidence of hoard patina; all seem virtually cleaned to the same level.  I guess it is possible that the coins from that monster hoard that came out of Turkey several years ago had little encrustation, so cleaning these generally high grade coins wasn't much of a task.

 

[John Conduitt]

7 hours ago, robinjojo said:

I think a key question is what kind of dealer is being discussed?  In the world of ancient coins, the ones in our collections have traveled various routes to arrive at their current destinations.  Some dealers specialize in bulk lots of ungraded (at least in theory) coins from hoards.  Other dealers, especially those in geographical proximity of coin hoard source countries, such as Syria, probably grade the coins as they arrive.  How many are "uncleaned"? That's hard to say, personally, since I don't have any first hand experience with the ins and outs of this trade.  My general feeling is that most coins receive at least a rudimentary cleaning, at least based on my experience with the pharaonic owls, but again it is hard to know what state they were in on discovery.  None of this information is documented, for obvious reasons. 

Now further up the chain of dealers, and auction houses for that matter, the percentage of coins no cleaned surely must be in the minority, since there is a clear economic incentive  to sell coins that are appealing to the general public, even if that means bright and over cleaned, at least for silver coins.  Ancient coins, especially silver coins are actually quite difficult to find in "as found" or even close to this state.  As proof, just look at the ocean of standardized classical owls on the market.  I've never really seen one with evidence of hoard patina; all seem virtually cleaned to the same level.  I guess it is possible that the coins from that monster hoard that came out of Turkey several years ago had little encrustation, so cleaning these generally high grade coins wasn't much of a task.

 

It must be very rare for a coin to come straight out of the ground and go on sale with no cleaning whatsoever, such as wiping off the dirt, but they can come out close to saleable. Some dealers buy from the finders and the coins may not need a lot of cleaning. Others can be fused together and need a lot of work just to get them apart and recognisable.

@Heliodromus's post at the other place shows a hoard of bronze coins in the ground, at the British Museum (who clean coins just enough to identify them) and as sold. These were sold (and are being sold) by the finder Rob Jones on eBay and through several auction houses, all cleaned of their green patina.

Similarly, this is the Nether Compton Hoard (finder's photo) and a coin from it:

 

Delmatius Follis, 335-337

Treveri (second officina). Bronze, 15mm, 1.64g. Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right; FL DELMATI-VS NOB CAES. Two soldiers standing facing, holding spear and shield; standard between with O on banner; GLOR-IA EXERC-ITVS; mintmark dot TRS dot (RIC VII, 594). From the Nether Compton (Dorset) Hoard, 1989.

This siliqua from the Vale of Pewsey Hoard, however, looks like it could have just had a quick rinse to sell it (finder's photo):



The coins as auctioned were not cleaned much more than that:

Eugenius Siliqua, 392-394
Trier. Silver, 1.72g. Pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right; D N EVGENI-VS P F AVG. Roma seated left on cuirass, holding reversed spear and Victoriola on globe; VIRTVS RO-MANORVM; TR PS in exergue (RIC IX, 106(d); Ghey 78, this coin). From the Vale of Pewsey (Wiltshire) Hoard 2020, Portable Antiquities Scheme: BM-7D34D9.

SIlbury Coins sell whole hoards (or large chunks of them) direct from the finders and clean the coins a little more. This is the Winterbourne Stickland Hoard (PAS photo) and a coin as sold:


 

Cranbourne Chase Stater, 50-10BC
Durotriges tribe, Dorset. Silver, 19mm, 4.78g. Crude head of Apollo with wreath, cloak and crescents. Disjointed horse left with rectangular head, body of crescents, four vertical legs, three lines for tail; pellet below; twelve pellets above; wheel of biga behind (ABC 2157; VA 1235-1; M 317; S 366). From the Winterborne Stickland (Dorset) Hoard 2013 of 75 staters, Portable Antiquities Scheme: WILT-DF1BB7 (this coin is image 29).

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

I'd count these as partially uncleaned.  The Drachms have most of the dirt removed and the follis has a bit of it removed.

I've been buying up uncleaneds like these lately.  I just don't think they'll be many of them in the future and might as well get them while I can.  I don't need too many more uncleaneds, however.  I'm pretty happy with the representative 'before' examples I have now.

I haven't found any uncleaned non Hellenistic Greek tetradrachms, nor non-tiny Archaic AR's (for obvious reasons).  They'd have to be pretty horrible for them not to be cleaned and go on sale.

This is about as close as one will get to an uncleaned Sestertius.

The only uncleaned ones which I really wanted to clean were some Nezak Hun ones, but I lack the skills to do so.

 

[Nerosmyfavorite68]

P.S.  There was a news story about some greenish Tetrarchic-era folles.  I'd really like one like that.  There's one on vcoins, but it's really overpriced. I could get a really nice restored one for that.