How do you do? Search for older provenience?

[Prieure de Sion]

Hello...

Are there any tips from you regarding the search for older provenance and origin? How do you do it? Is it even possible to do research online?

I would like to find out if my coins have an older provenance.

Now of course I know:
* acsearch
* CoinArchive
* Sixbid Archive

But these databases - as far as I can see - only go back to around 1999. 

But what if I want to search further back, older auctions? Do you have a tip for me? How do you do it if you want to search for provenance?

 

Thanks.

[kirispupis]

My understanding is it requires a lot of auction catalogs and more than a little spare time. Some of the more well-known ones are online.

Making matters tougher - as I understand most of the coin trade > 30 years ago wasn't through auctions, but through dealers.

[Hesiod]

Depends on the coins you want. A lot of old catalogues are online, and you generally get a sense of what kinds of sales/firms have what kind of coins. Rnumis (https://www.rnumis.com/) is helpful for a easy way to find certain digitalized catalogues. 

[Ed Snible]

You can often find pre-1920 stuff at https://www.rnumis.com/frontpage.php , https://www.hathitrust.org/ , and https://books.google.com/ .

For catalogs from the 1930s-1960s, you must purchase them.  Try eBay, https://www.numislit.com/ and https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/charles_davis-44/ancient-coins/Default.aspx .  Before you start purchasing, probably buy John Spring, Ancient Coin Auction Catalogs and Dennis Kroh, Ancient Coin Reference Reviews.  Scanning the books recommended by Spring is how https://www.ex-numis.com/ got started.

For catalogs from the 1970s-1990s, these are unavailable at any price.  You can sometimes get them for free, when your friends are getting ready to move to Florida.  Some stuff might be on https://nnp.wustl.edu/ .  You can visit the ANS library in New York City.  Online, if you are interested in Roman Republican, there are the Schaefer notebooks.

[kapphnwn]

You could also check out the Neuman Numismatic Portal nnp.wustl.edu Like the rnumis site it does have a large number of auction cats and some FPLs some of which are not found on rnumis. However it can be something of  a slog. Last year at about this time, for my edification I decide to create a chart showing in an abbreviated form my success in finding "hidden pedigrees" Below are the results.  

As this chart was meant for my purposes it can be a bit confusing. From left to right you can see the coin cited , then the earliest date that I knew when purchasing it. The new date. (The red means that I found the coin plated or referenced in a book.) After that there are subsequent citations including + and # as I have found the same coin multiple times. To the right are the sources where found. Some are a bit odd. The Numerian was found to be the cover coin for the Wikipedia article on Numerian 

[John Conduitt]

1 hour ago, kapphnwn said:

You could also check out the Neuman Numismatic Portal nnp.wustl.edu Like the rnumis site it does have a large number of auction cats and some FPLs some of which are not found on rnumis. However it can be something of  a slog. Last year at about this time, for my edification I decide to create a chart showing in an abbreviated form my success in finding "hidden pedigrees" Below are the results.  

As this chart was meant for my purposes it can be a bit confusing. From left to right you can see the coin cited , then the earliest date that I knew when purchasing it. The new date. (The red means that I found the coin plated or referenced in a book.) After that there are subsequent citations including + and # as I have found the same coin multiple times. To the right are the sources where found. Some are a bit odd. The Numerian was found to be the cover coin for the Wikipedia article on Numerian 

Did you literally have to look through every book and catalogue on nnp.wustl.edu and rnumis?

[DonnaML]

11 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Did you literally have to look through every book and catalogue on nnp.wustl.edu and rnumis?

And the Internet Archive, too, which also has lots of auction catalogs! And the answer for the most part is yes, you have to look through every single catalog, pretty much, that says it's auctioning the particular type of coin (e.g., Roman Imperial gold). There's no overall word search possible, except for the partial index to certain Greek coins from old catalogs on rnumis. And you have to hope for the older ones that all the coins (and not just some) are illustrated in the plates. I would not agree with @Ed Snible that these resources are useful only for pre-1930s catalogs. The Newman Numismatic Portal has lots of catalogs from the 1930s and later on. See this screenshot of the beginning of the listings for Stack's; there are catalogs available from many of the listed years:

In addition to auction catalogs, don't forget to look on Google Books for retail coin lists like those in the Spink Numismatic Circular. I have several coins with provenances to such retail lists.

[DonnaML]

Sometimes one gets lucky: when I bought the Valentinian I solidus I posted in the "provenance" thread, from the Antioch Mint (3rd Officina), all I knew was that it was from "an old Parisian collection." I found the 1966 Maison Vinchon provenance only because the exact same type from the same officina, sold by Maison Vinchon in 1966, happened to be listed in Depeyrot* as the only known example of that specific type from that officina; when I found the catalog it turned out to be my coin. If I didn't already have a copy of Depeyrot I wouldn't have found the reference, and if the auction had taken place after June 1988 it wouldn't have been included in Depeyrot in the first place.

*Depeyrot II Antioch 23/1 Valentinian I (p. 281) (examples with this mint-mark, without stars or dots, & monogrammed cross in labarum rather than Chi-Ro, known from Officinas 3 & 10) (citing 1966 Maison Vinchon sale of this coin as the one example from 3rd Officina, with one other from 10th Officina) [Depeyrot, George., Les Monnaies d'Or de Constantin II à Zenon (337-491) (Wetteren 1996)]. 21.2 mm., 4.44 g. Purchased from Odysseus Numismatique [Julien Cougnard], Montpellier, France, Feb. 2022, “from an old Parisian collection”; ex Maison Vinchon Auction Sale, Mon. 25 April 1966, Hotel Drouot, Paris, Lot 257.

Edited March 10, 2023 by DonnaML

[John Conduitt]

4 minutes ago, DonnaML said:

And the Internet Archive, too, which also has lots of auction catalogs! And the answer for the most part is yes, you have to look through every single catalog, pretty much, that says it's auctioning the particular type of coin (e.g., Roman Imperial gold). There's no overall word search possible, except for the partial index to certain Greek coins from old catalogs on rnumis. And you have to hope for the older ones that all the coins (and not just some) are illustrated in the plates. I would not agree with @Ed Snible that these resources are useful only for pre-1930s catalogs. The Newman Numismatic Portal has lots of catalogs from the 1930s and later on. See this screenshot of the beginning of the listings for Stack's; there are catalogs available from many of the listed years:

In addition to auction catalogs, don't forget to look on Google Books for retail coin lists like those in the Spink Numismatic Circular. I have several coins with provenances to such retail lists.

Thank you. I’m kind of glad most of my ancients collection comes from hoards or recorded finds, but even for what’s left it would take months. And if you buy a new coin you have to start again 😳

[DonnaML]

6 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

Thank you. I’m kind of glad most of my ancients collection comes from hoards or recorded finds, but even for what’s left it would take months. And if you buy a new coin you have to start again 😳

Indeed! It's like searching for a particular needle in a haystack full of similar needles. And the farther back in time one goes, the smaller the percentage of coins in a catalog that are likely to be illustrated. Which is probably why people often have better luck searching for provenance for ancient gold, because those seem to have been illustrated more frequently than, say, your average denarius or middle bronze. Without a photo, it's almost impossible to make a match unless the coin is extremely rare. I've tried matching coin weights, but of course those can vary slightly in the same coin when weighed multiple times, plus I've found that old coin descriptions often omit the weight.

Edited March 10, 2023 by DonnaML

[John Conduitt]

1 minute ago, DonnaML said:

Sometimes one gets lucky: when I bought the Valentinian I solidus I posted in the "provenance" thread, from the Antioch Mint (3rd Officina), all I knew was that it was from "an old Parisian collection." I found the 1966 Maison Vinchon provenance only because the exact same type from the same officina, sold by Maison Vinchon in 1966, happened to be listed in Depeyrot* as the only known example of that specific type from that officina; when I found the catalog it turned out to be my coin.

*Depeyrot II Antioch 23/1 Valentinian I (p. 281) (examples with this mint-mark, without stars or dots, & monogrammed cross in labarum rather than Chi-Ro, known from Officinas 3 & 10) (citing 1966 Maison Vinchon sale of this coin as the one example from 3rd Officina, with one other from 10th Officina) [Depeyrot, George., Les Monnaies d'Or de Constantin II à Zenon (337-491) (Wetteren 1996)]. 21.2 mm., 4.44 g. Purchased from Odysseus Numismatique [Julien Cougnard], Montpellier, France, Feb. 2022, “from an old Parisian collection”; ex Maison Vinchon Auction Sale, Mon. 25 April 1966, Hotel Drouot, Paris, Lot 257.

This is true. I found a coin I’d just bought in Spink as I was looking it up. And a photo of my most expensive coin is used all over the internet.

Another place to look if it’s a British coin or possibly found in Britain is the Portable Antiquities Scheme website. I’ve found a few coins there that had lost their provenance. (And at least there you can search…)

[kapphnwn]

In answer to @John ConduittYes I did In some places  more than once, I also looked through old Celator's as well (actually found three there). 

[Phil Davis]

Banti for Roman Republic and Banti/Simonetti for Roman Imperial/Imperatorial are indispensable.

[DonnaML]

4 minutes ago, Phil Davis said:

Banti for Roman Republic and Banti/Simonetti for Roman Imperial/Imperatorial are indispensable.

Too bad they're a combined 27 volumes!

[Ocatarinetabellatchitchix]

8 hours ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Are there any tips from you regarding the search for older provenance and origin?

Acsearch has this « image search fonction » available for a while; not sure if it’s working well though…

[Deinomenid]

R numis is mostly catalogues etc as discussed but also has a separate function for Ancient Greek coins from some areas (Italy and Sicily). You can search by type or weight etc.

It isn’t perfect but is well worth using for that subset.

[Prieure de Sion]

First of all, thank you to all the answers here!

 

16 hours ago, Hesiod said:

Depends on the coins you want. A lot of old catalogues are online, and you generally get a sense of what kinds of sales/firms have what kind of coins. Rnumis (https://www.rnumis.com/) is helpful for a easy way to find certain digitalized catalogues. 

Thank you also here. I have had a look at the link. Either I don't really understand the operation yet - or it doesn't work what I'm looking for. If I understand correctly, I can search for old coin catalogues here but not specifically for a coin or a type? Or?

So let's say I'm looking for Commodus RIC 9 Roma sitting. I can't search for coins in the catalogues, it seems. can I?

 

14 hours ago, kapphnwn said:

You could also check out the Neuman Numismatic Portal nnp.wustl.edu Like the rnumis site it does have a large number of auction cats and some FPLs some of which are not found on rnumis.

I think I have the same problem here....

 

16 hours ago, Ed Snible said:

by Spring is how https://www.ex-numis.com/ got started.

I think that would be the only thing along the lines of what I'm looking for....

 

---

Ok, thanks again to all of you and your efforts! But I think I have expressed myself wrongly or badly. Or I didn't understand how to use your links correctly (this can also be the case). I will try to explain it again.

 

Example.

I bought this coin at an auction:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=10345548

Now I would like to know if this coin has already been sold in older auctions. And whether perhaps even the previous owner was indicated there. 

Now I can search CoinArchive or acsearch for "Commodus" "RIC 9" and maybe "Trophy" and see if this coin has already been auctioned elsewhere in recent years. But as I see it, with these two I can only search back to 1999 and not older.

Now I tried to search your links for "Commodus RIC 9 Trophy" and have all the coins displayed - but that doesn't seem to work - or I didn't find it.

I can probably search for old auction catalogues and have them displayed - but then I would have to search through all the catalogues. But I don't want to search for catalogues or literature - because I don't know which catalogues I have to search for. I only know that I have to search for "Commodus RIC 9 Trophy" - and see - if this coin has been sold somewhere before.

Here: https://www.rnumis.com - as an example - I can only search for catalogues - but not for individual coins - right?

Again - I have a coin without any information of origin. Is there a way to search for individual coins (like acsearch) older than 1999?

Thank you.

 

 

[Hesiod]

1 hour ago, Prieure de Sion said:

I can't search for coins in the catalogues, it seems. can I?

Correct, the only digitialized ones are ex-numis (which you pay per submission), and acsearch (on an extremely limited amount of catalogues). rnumis is just the raw pdfs you can look for.

Ex-numis is the closest thing to what you're asking for. But you pay per submission, and per hit.

[Ed Snible]

@Prieure de Sion the only person in the world who can search in the way you suggest is Dr. Jonas Emmanuel Flueck.  He scanned a large library of catalogs and hired a programmer.

The only way I have found pre-1999 provenances is through the ANS library.  To do this I first memorized my collection.  On every visit to the ANS library I pull down the boxes of catalogs from a particular dealer and flip through all of the plates.  It's time consuming!  I've gone through the big dealers but still have many more dealers to go.  Without a library, you are limited to flipping through the catalogs of dealers that appear on the sites I gave, which is mostly Harlan Berk, CNG, and NFA.  I enjoy this kind of thing, but many collectors do not.

Spring's book on auction catalogs stopped in 1985 because they number of catalogs was starting to explode.  Copyright law is 95 years.   I am sure in the 2081 AD time-frame there will be web sites that will let you search the way Dr. Fleuck does.  By 2095 most catalogs will be searchable digitally.

This is why provenance research is so expensive (see other thread!).

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Ed Snible

[John Conduitt]

46 minutes ago, Ed Snible said:

@Prieure de Sion the only person in the world who can search in the way you suggest is Dr. Jonas Emmanuel Flueck.  He scanned a large library of catalogs and hired a programmer.

The only way I have found pre-1999 provenances is through the ANS library.  To do this I first memorized my collection.  On every visit to the ANS library I pull down the boxes of catalogs from a particular dealer and flip through all of the plates.  It's time consuming!  I've gone through the big dealers but still have many more dealers to go.  Without a library, you are limited to flipping through the catalogs of dealers that appear on the sites I gave, which is mostly Harlan Berk, CNG, and NFA.  I enjoy this kind of thing, but many collectors do not.

Spring's book on auction catalogs stopped in 1985 because they number of catalogs was starting to explode.  Copyright law is 95 years.   I am sure in the 2081 AD time-frame there will be web sites that will let you search the way Dr. Fleuck does.  By 2095 most catalogs will be searchable digitally.

This is why provenance research is so expensive (see other thread!).

 

I don't think it will be so long until we can search the catalogues. Software exists that can read scans and turn them into searchable text - the hard job is scanning them in the first place. Even copyrighted catalogues would be searchable, but pay-per-view. It's the same trejectory as in family history, which went: visiting rural churches for registers - going to a record office to flick through thousands of microfiches of registers - buying hard copy indexes of registers - buying CDs with the document images - getting a subscription to a website with the images to read through - ability to search all these images and every newspaper published for keywords. Now the software even does the searching for you and suggests what to look at.

[Prieure de Sion]

Ok i see - that what I want / or wish (acsearch like) - isn't possible for coins sold in the 90s, 80s, 70s or older...

My only chance is download all old catalogues to my iPad - and at my holidays don't read a book - read one catalogue after the other 😄 ... and if I'm very lucky, I'll find a coin or two.

[Ed Snible]

18 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

I don't think it will be so long until we can search the catalogues. Software exists that can read scans and turn them into searchable text - the hard job is scanning them in the first place. Even copyrighted catalogues would be searchable, but pay-per-view.

Scanning is fairly cheap.  Many catalogs have already been scanned but can't be shared.

The expensive part is getting legal clearance from defunct entities.  Even Google was unable to do this.

We haven't yet had legal precedent about the copyright status of a Large Language Model trained from copyrighted text.  If any countries get a legal precedent that allows web sites to use data derived from copyrighted works we should the kinds of tools @Prieure de Sion desires soon after.

It is worth pointing out that provenance finding tools will be great fun for collectors, but might take away the fun of people who have built large reference libraries and are doing the research today.

It's also worth pointing out that although people collect catalogs, I don't know of anyone collecting the intellectual property behind the catalogs.  For example, I have dozens of old Alex G Malloy catalogs.  Each has photos and descriptions of thousands of coins.  I have used them to track down provenance.  In theory, any of us could write Mr. Malloy and offer him a small amount of cash in exchange for the copyrights on the catalogs he put out for 27 years.  I think we are all fools, myself included, to ignore collecting the copyrights.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Ed Snible

[Sulla80]

Finding provenance - it helps to get good at recognizing dies and die matches...

Roman Republican coins - the Schaeffer Roman Republican Die Project is a useful resource  http://numismatics.org/archives/ark:/53695/schaefer.rrdp.b04.  Examples:

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/fun-provenance-find

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/unencrypting-crawford-rrc

Coins of Roman Egypt : Dattari Savio is an easy place to check with ~10K coins it provides one stop for 100+ years of provenance.

example: https://www.sullacoins.com/post/provenance-rediscovered

Generally: ACSearch is pretty good - both image search and scanning entries (when you don't have a coin with 1000s of hits), however you will rarely find anything more than 20-25 years old unless the selling auction house lists older provenance.

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/the-temple-on-mt-eryx

ACSearch helped me track down this coin to 1989:

and a funny story here of 5 previous owners found with image search (5 owners in about 30 months)

https://www.sullacoins.com/post/who-s-bidding

 

Specific Types: Die studies for your coin of interest are always a good place to look or for rarer coins the one reference article

example: https://www.sullacoins.com/post/ae-coin-from-ekkarra-achaea-phthiotis

 

Image Searching: Having tried periodically http://ex-numis.com with no luck, even coins that I know have old provenance haven't turned up anything, I still hold out hope that this will be the best way to search provenance in the future, as databases grow and image matching technology improves.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Sulla80

[Edessa]

ISSUU also has quite a few numismatic catalogs available for free. Most are post-2000, but a few are from dealers not represented on CoinArchives or AcSearch. The downside is that the search function is highly frustrating.

Also, I find the odd coin or two that has been dropped from the CoinArchives or AcSearch database, even for recent catalogs. Generally, these were unsold or withdrawn lots but at times there is no rhyme or reason. If you go into CoinArchives or AcSearch and search by the individual auctions, you will see what I mean. There are occasional missing lots. Several times I have looked up the catalog on ISSUU and found lots that don't show up in the digital database.

Of course, the catalogs also show multiple lot listings and occasional writeups about whose collection might be represented by the sale, both things that won't show up on the digital database.

[rNumis]

"The only person in the world who can search in the way you suggest is Dr. Jonas Emmanuel Flueck.  He scanned a large library of catalogs and hired a programmer"

Not strictly true, Ed. I know of at least 2 other people who have outstanding searchable digital numismatic libraries but for various reasons don't/can't make them public. I could do it if I had the time. One day.