Where did my auction target end up?

[Steppenfool]

I was the second highest bidder on the following coin at the Roma Numismatics E-Sale that occured recently.

 

 

A nice coin, to be sure. My final bid was a £100 hammer or £120 including Buyer's Premium. The bid that defeated me was £110 or £132 including Buyer's Premium. A fair price, I thought, but a bit too much for me given the lack of obverse legend and general detail. I was happy for the person that won it, and hoped they'd enjoy the new addition to their collection.

However, scrolling through eBay, I find this exact coin up for sale, with a sizeable price increase.

 

I can't help but wonder who would pay this much? It is simply not worth the price tag, esepcially considering the added risk of eBay where fakes are abundant. The seller also can't state the provenance to prove legitimacy, because that would reveal the price increase that has occured. There must be a market for people who are totally unaware of vcoins/mashops/biddr/Roma etc. and think the only place to buy coins is eBay.

It is a shame that people who enjoy the coins in their own collection have to do battle with the resellers. They say all is fair in love and war, but I suppose they should add in business to this proverb.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Steppenfool

[Kaleun96]

17 minutes ago, Steppenfool said:

I can't help but wonder who would pay this much? It is simply not worth the price tag, esepcially considering the added risk of eBay where fakes are abundant. The seller also can't state the provenance to prove legitimacy, because that would reveal the price increase that has occured. There must be a market for people who are totally unaware of vcoins/mashops/biddr/Roma etc. and think the only place to buy coins is eBay.

It is a shame that people who enjoy the coins in their own collection have to do battle with the resellers. They say all is fair in love and war, but I suppose they should add in business to this proverb.

There are dealers on Vcoins and MA-Shops who are just as bad, or worse, as these eBay resellers. Just recently, I saw a coin on a lesser-known French dealer's website get sold for €1200 (or possibly €1000, as it had been discounted previously), and then wind up on a different French dealer's MA-Shops for €1,800 a short time later. A month after that, it had been sold and was listed for €2,800 on a third French dealer's Vcoins store. This isn't a case of the coin being under-priced, it sat on the first dealer's website for over a year, and it survived at least the initial few days on MA-Shops where it would've been appearing in everyone's "new" feed.

There's lots of examples like this too and what annoys me is that when you message them to ask for a fair discount (e.g. 40-50% above what they paid, including fees and shipping), they often reject the offer and have no problem sitting on the coin for months or years at a time, waiting for someone to pay 100-200% over what they paid.

I do understand that some dealers, good dealers, provide a useful service and add value to the coins they buy by digging up unknown provenances, better attributing the coin, taking a risk on a bad auction photo, cleaning a coin up, etc and in these cases I think it's fair to mark-up the coin a reasonable amount (based on what it hammered for and what it generally should hammer for at auctions). But there's just as many, if not more, dealers on MA-Shops or Vcoins who just buy a coin at auction and relist it at a price that no knowledgeable collector would ever pay, often with a copied photo and/or description (if not a worse photo and/or description). Those dealers would do us collectors a favour if they just went bankrupt and found another line of business.

As a side note, it strikes me that many FPL's are heading in this direction too (HJB, CNG, Leu, Nomos, etc). It must be close to 2 years since I last bought from an FPL and now most of what you see are coins that auctioned off a few months ago listed at some price only someone with too much money would pay.

[thejewk]

There's some nutty business going on on ebay UK at the moment in general.  Lots of mediocre common 2ndC denarii listed for £150+, etc.  No doubt these things will become irritating companions over time, cropping up in my searches for the next few years.

I find it endlessly amusing looking at the 'recently added' section on vcoins a few times each week and seeing what relatively common LRB in decent condition is being listed for $500.

[Steppenfool]

25 minutes ago, Kaleun96 said:

I do understand that some dealers, good dealers, provide a useful service and add value to the coins they buy by digging up unknown provenances, better attributing the coin, taking a risk on a bad auction photo, cleaning a coin up, etc and in these cases I think it's fair to mark-up the coin a reasonable amount (based on what it hammered for and what it generally should hammer for at auctions). But there's just as many, if not more, dealers on MA-Shops or Vcoins who just buy a coin at auction and relist it at a price that no knowledgeable collector would ever pay, often with a copied photo and/or description (if not a worse photo and/or description). Those dealers would do us collectors a favour if they just went bankrupt and found another line of business.

I agree, I've said before I don't really enjoy the effort and uncertainty of auctions so I'm happy to pay a premium for the service of a dealer. I don't grudge anyone conducting business and making a profit. However, there's now only a small handful of shops on vcoins/mashops that I even care to look out for when scrolling. Some I like in Europe are: Vossen, Lodge, Kolner, Monetarium and N&N Collection.

Also, our very own @Prieure de Sion at YOTHR appears to be an honest and fair dealer with regards to this issue. A substantial amount of knowledge and effort goes into their listings and the provenance is honest so you can check the auction hammer and see that the mark up is reasonable.

17 minutes ago, thejewk said:

There's some nutty business going on on ebay UK at the moment in general.  Lots of mediocre common 2ndC denarii listed for £150+, etc.  No doubt these things will become irritating companions over time, cropping up in my searches for the next few years.

I find it endlessly amusing looking at the 'recently added' section on vcoins a few times each week and seeing what relatively common LRB in decent condition is being listed for $500.

Absolutely. UK eBay is a chore to browse at the minute. I only go to a few sellers profiles directly nowadays.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Steppenfool

[Prieure de Sion]

10 minutes ago, Steppenfool said:

Also, our very own @Prieure de Sion at YOTHR appears to be an honest and fair dealer with regards to this issue. A substantial amount of knowledge and effort goes into their listings and the provenance is honest so you can check the auction hammer and see that the mark up is reasonable.

Thank you for the flowers.

But I have to come to the defence of "the colleagues" a bit. Yes, of course I don't understand when someone buys a coin for 500 euros and sells it for 3000 euros. I would also find that too high. 

However, it has to be said that the market is "swept clean". As a dealer, 90% of the only chance to get coins is through auctions. I would not buy coins for my customers on Ebay or in the classifieds - never! And privately - if someone privately dissolves his collection, then he goes to an auction house today and sells all his coins in one fell swoop. It's more convenient for the seller. Where else are the dealers supposed to get their coins from? Except almost exclusively at auctions.

I have many customers - who have no time and no desire to register with 10, 20, 30 auction houses. They don't want to take the time to bid. They don't want to search all the time. They want me to search for coins (at auctions), buy them, pay for them and send them to the customer. For this, the customers are also willing to pay a (service) price. 

But my customers are also - sorry - not idiots who pay every fantasy service price. That is clear. 

But what you should also consider - not only the profit. We traders inform each other and are always in contact with each other. That's how we get to know the most about each other. And that's why I say to you, don't just look at the profit, but also the additional costs that you have as a trader. 

By that I mean, for example, "theft". Do you know how often we traders become victims of fraud? I can tell you. Very often. I am writing this because yesterday I was a victim again. A customer bought a Gold Solidus from me and paid with a credit card. Now 6 weeks after the purchase he objected the payment at VISA - he never received the coin. Now almost 1000 euros are gone for now - and VISA has approved the protest - although according to UPS tracking the package has arrived. And this is not an isolated case. And if you lose 1000 euros - you have to sell a lot of coins to recoup this.

And yes - that happens very often. Expensive coins = lots of scammers trying.

If you think you can get rich as a trader - I recommend opening a shop at VCoins or MA, it only takes a few minutes. But you have to have very good nerves and you often don't sleep for days.

But I understand your intention. Of course, you shouldn't overdo it. But you have to calculate a good profit - so that you don't lose more money than you win in the end.

 

🙂 

[kirispupis]

This "sort of" happened to me recently. There was a coin that was a key target, but for a lower priority collection. I was watching the coin, but it was bid up too high before the live portion and by the time it came up live I'd already blown too much on other coins, so I neglected to bid.

Shortly after that, I had some remorse since I felt I should have bid since the coin is very rare and a nice example. I replied (to myself) that I had no idea how high the winning bidder would have gone up.

Well, several weeks ago that exact coin came up on VCoins! Initially, I was a bit pissed, but when I did the math I realized that what he was asking was exactly what I would have paid had I gone up one increment and paid the auction fees. So, I bought it and it will be here soon. 🙂 

[Kaleun96]

33 minutes ago, Steppenfool said:

Also, our very own @Prieure de Sion at YOTHR appears to be an honest and fair dealer with regards to this issue. A substantial amount of knowledge and effort goes into their listings and the provenance is honest so you can check the auction hammer and see that the mark up is reasonable.

💯 it was so nice to see this massive step-up in quality when YOTHR/@Prieure de Sion turned up on Vcoins, they really set a high standard for listings.

So I do completely understand what you're saying @Prieure de Sion but I also think you're one of the better and fairer dealers on Vcoins, among others like Dorney, Aegean, Vossen, etc. I think there's a big gap between dealers like yourself and those who buy a coin, list it 2x or above what they paid, put in almost no effort (you're lucky if they list the weight and take a new photo) and proceed to sit on the coin in their webshop for 2 years.

There are some well-known dealers like this that I don't need to name and it is these dealers that I have in mind in my previous post. If their only value to the collecting community is to price their coins for the 1% of the market that is stupid enough to pay that much, they should find something else to do. No one is forcing them to buy coins from auctions, if they can't make enough money without charging so much and relying on uninformed collectors who don't know any better then I do question what is the value that they're providing. Sure, you don't have to buy coins from them but it's frustrating when you see a coin that you were the underbidder on sit in a webshop for months at a time at a price far above what it is worth. I guess you can only hope that these types of dealers go out of business.

Quote

However, it has to be said that the market is "swept clean". As a dealer, 90% of the only chance to get coins is through auctions.

Part of the reason for this is other dealers buying up coins from dealers who priced them fairly. This happened a lot in 2020/21 when the retail market was lagging behind the price increases in the auction market. There were more coins on my want list from retail dealers than I could afford to buy in a short amount of time, it didn't take long for them to get snapped up and then re-appear under a different dealer for X% more. What value is this type of dealer providing in that instance? The coin is already accessible online under the original dealer's Vcoins/Ma-Shops page, now it's just transferred to a different dealer on the same site with a big price hike.

[Cordoba]

I get really sad when I see another bactrian tetradrachm get bought by a coin dealer at an auction and see it end up on vcoins marked up over 2x the hammer price instead of going to an actual collector. These resellers often just copy paste the auction description and auction picture. There are definitely some fairly priced retail dealers, but I fail to see the benefit some of these dealers provide to collectors, especially when they don't even write their own descriptions.

I've posted this one before, but this is a pretty egregious markup. hammer price at heritage was ~1k including fees a couple months ago, and this ends up marked up over 2x. I feel bad for the buyer, 2.5k can get a much nicer demetrius tetradrachm than this.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Cordoba

[Prieure de Sion]

2 hours ago, Kaleun96 said:

So I do completely understand what you're saying @Prieure de Sion but I also think you're one of the better and fairer dealers on Vcoins, among others like Dorney, Aegean, Vossen, etc. I think there's a big gap between dealers like yourself and those who buy a coin, list it 2x or above what they paid, put in almost no effort (you're lucky if they list the weight and take a new photo) and proceed to sit on the coin in their webshop for 2 years.

I think we can agree that most traders are very reputable and okay. But logically - there are black sheep in every industry I think.

 

2 hours ago, Kaleun96 said:

I think there's a big gap between dealers like yourself and those who buy a coin, list it 2x or above what they paid, put in almost no effort (you're lucky if they list the weight and take a new photo) and proceed to sit on the coin in their webshop for 2 years.

Thank you for the flowers again - but I also make mistakes and sometimes not everything is right. But very kind of you.

As a service to my customers, I try to do some research on the coin and offer information about it - to offer some added value. And I try to make videos of all my coins. I find videos much better than any pictures. In the hand, live, without filters, the buyer sees what he gets. It's important not to have any secrets. If the buyer knows what he is buying - there are no nasty surprises - and I profit from that too. 

But maybe it's also because I'm a crazy collector in my private life and collecting historical data on coins is just fun for me and I get paid for this fun...  😄 

[John Conduitt]

The dealers I buy from don't get so many coins from auctions. If they did, I would've bid on them already 🤣 Quite a few are dug up by metal detectorists. Some collectors ask the dealer who earlier sold them a coin whether they can sell it now they no longer need it (for commission). Occasionally they manage to buy whole collections. Some of them get coins from other dealers, especially if they are specialists and the other dealers aren't.

Selling on eBay, you need to mark up at least 20% just to break even, and that's ignoring any overheads. If I bought coins to make a living, I would have to put them on for at least double. I don't know how that's possible buying coins at auction, as I rarely manage to sell my coins for more than about 50% mark up, and often much less. It must require a lot of capital to build up enough stock for regular turnover.

[madhatter]

@Steppenfool well seller acceps offers...make him one for 110 😄

Edited March 1, 2023 by madhatter

[Heliodromus]

Is it Festivus, time for airing of grievances ?! 😀

I've always thought that as a collector you should never be losing auctions to buyers that are dealers (since they need to buy below retail), but I guess that isn't always true. Luckily it doesn't matter since you don't generally know who you are bidding against, and anyways personally I always snipe where possible.

My personal pet peeve, which I really don't understand, is with dealers that rather than pricing coins to sell in any reasonable time frame (< 1 year, say) instead prefer to price at 2-3x market and just wait - forever - without dropping price or considering offers. A few months ago I finally gave up on Mr. yellow "sand patina" on VCoins after making a well above market (but well below asking) price offer on a coin I'd been watching for *years*, and not even getting the courtesy of a reply. My offer had included comparables to show I wasn't just making it up. I just deleted the rest of my watch list from that dealer, since it was evidentially just a waste of time.

I guess the "price sky high, and wait for the idiot" business model must work, else dealers wouldn't be using it, but even if that is a viable business model it's not at all obvious they wouldn't be doing better financially by pricing for a much higher turnover (incl. broader clientele!). Maybe certain dealers are just psychologically attracted to this model?

It reminds of two gas stations near me, literally across the road from each other, one with reasonable prices and long lines, and one that had prices 50c/gal higher and an empty forecourt. This went on for years until they eventually switched to market pricing. I guess with razor thin margins (as gas stations often have) it only takes one sucker to pay for an awful lot of missed business, even though in this case they eventually gave up on it.

I wonder are there any dealers here who could comment on the two pricing strategies of "reasonable, higher turnover" vs "CRAZY high, very low turnover". Is there any evidence that they are comparable in terms of profit ?

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Heliodromus

[Cordoba]

22 minutes ago, Heliodromus said:

My personal pet peeve, which I really don't understand, is with dealers that rather than pricing coins to sell in any reasonable time frame (< 1 year, say) instead prefer to price at 2-3x market and just wait - forever - without dropping price or considering offers. A few months ago I finally gave up on Mr. yellow "sand patina" on VCoins after making a well above market (but well below asking) price offer on a coin I'd been watching for *years*, and not even getting the courtesy of a reply. My offer had included comparables to show I wasn't just making it up. I just deleted the rest of my watch list from that dealer, since it was evidentially just a waste of time.

 

i think that might have been an issue with vcoins emails not sending, i've been able to make offers to him and he's replied in a reasonable time frame