Opinion On This Trajan Denarius

[DimitriosL]

Greetings, this denarius caught my eye on an online auction the other day. I would appreciate your thoughts on it, grade, style, authenticity and how much should i spend on it.

[CPK]

Hello DimitriosL, Welcome to the Forum!

Looks like a decent coin, with a nice portrait of Trajan. As far as I can tell it looks authentic. 

Trajan denarii are quite common and generally not terribly expensive...I would say that the hammer price was about average. Did you win it?

[DimitriosL]

Hello, thank you very much for your response! Happy to be here! Unfortunately i didnt place a bid. I dont have any experience on online auctions so i was a little bit hesitant. I also read somewhere that savoca has included a couple of fakes in their auctions in the past. Do you have any experience dealing with them? Any tips for a begginer( auction houses, affordable pieces etc). I only have some experienced cleaning uncleaned lots.

[Prieure de Sion]

6 hours ago, DimitriosL said:

Greetings, this denarius caught my eye on an online auction the other day. I would appreciate your thoughts on it, grade, style, authenticity and how much should i spend on it.

 

1. Savoca is a serious Auctionhouse. Yes - mistakes possible at all sellers - but normally you bid at a serious place.

2. This coin is genuine.

3. The Portrait is fine - the reverse is ok.

4. Trajan coins - the common coins - are not rare. Rare coins of Trajan you paid 500, 1000, 1500 EUR and more.

We talk here about a common coin.

Coins with a normal "very good" I would not pay more than 100 Euro. For this coin 50-80 Euro.
About 100-150 Euro you get better (condition) coins in good very fine, near extremely fine.
Common types with extremely fine or about for 200-350 Euro.

All prices round about - its important how rare and condition of the Trajan coin.
But I will repeat - common type and in this condition - round about 50-80 Euro. Otherwise you get a better condition.

[DimitriosL]

Thank you so much! Very helpful input.

[Prieure de Sion]

4 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

Hello, thank you very much for your response! Happy to be here! Unfortunately i didnt place a bid. I dont have any experience on online auctions so i was a little bit hesitant. I also read somewhere that savoca has included a couple of fakes in their auctions in the past. Do you have any experience dealing with them? Any tips for a begginer( auction houses, affordable pieces etc). I only have some experienced cleaning uncleaned lots.

As beginner - dont buy at Ebay or Catawiki!
Not only because there are many fakes - because the service after you get an fake is horrible!

You can buy at all Auctionshouses a fake coin. No auction house can finde and eliminate 100% all of fakes. But at a serious Seller - you can come after 5 years, hey this is a fake because... and you get your money back. So buy at a serious auction hose or at a serious seller at VCoins / MA-Shop and you can sleep well. If you have questions about a Auctionhouse and you are not sure if it is - ask here in the forum - the users here will help you.

[CPK]

2 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

Hello, thank you very much for your response! Happy to be here! Unfortunately i didnt place a bid. I dont have any experience on online auctions so i was a little bit hesitant. I also read somewhere that savoca has included a couple of fakes in their auctions in the past. Do you have any experience dealing with them? Any tips for a begginer( auction houses, affordable pieces etc). I only have some experienced cleaning uncleaned lots.

 

I've had a lot of dealings with Savoca and they've always been a pleasure to work with - quick payment and fast shipping. Of course every auction house makes mistakes at times, but the good ones (among whom I would place Savoca) are about as safe as you will get, and in the rare event of a fake slipping through they will doubtless give you a full refund.

That said, doing a bit of your own research can help a lot as well. Learn to decipher legends, look up types at OCRE or RPC and then go to CNG's research website or asearch to see what the same or similar coins sold for in the past. Or you can just search the same coin on VCoins or MA shops and see if any are for sale there. This will give you a rough idea of market value (although this can fluctuate pretty significantly over time!)

VCoins and MA shops are great fixed-price options for beginners. Savoca (especially Blue) auctions also usually have some good, less-expensive material as well as nicer coins. CNG is a great auction house but prices there tend to go high, although deals can still be had.

What is your primary collecting interest in ancient coins? I go for all different types, but mostly Roman Imperial coins.

[Prieure de Sion]

29 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

Any tips for a begginer( auction houses, affordable pieces etc).

Ah yes - and at last:

RTFM! Red the f**** manual 😂

 

Better - read the terms!

1. You must pay an auction commission fee! Some houses take 18%, but some houses also take 25%.
2. Read how much you pay for shipping!

If you are happy - only a example - that you win the Trajan for 80 Euro... add 20% commission fees = 96 Euro
Then add 25 Euro for shipping - and your final price was 121 Euro - round about 50% more you get the coin.

This is only an example - I dont know how much exactly Savoca take for fees and shipping.

At my beginning I won a 35 Euro Silver Denarius at Heritage Europe (Netherlands), pay include the fees (20%) 42 Euro and will added round about 45 Euro (!) for shipping from Netherland to Germany - so the 35 Euro coin cost me at the end round about 90 Euro! 

Ah - and if you cannot make an USD / USD bank Transfer - dont forget the fees with bank transfer - for example, if you paid from USD to (German) EUR:
Or you want pay with PayPal (4-5%) or paying with Credit Card (2-4%).

 

Long story, short. Dont look alone at the coin pice at the end! Calculate additional 25-30% more with all cost for commission, shipping, paying.
And - I dont know what country you are - the custom tax for import into your country!

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[DimitriosL]

17 minutes ago, CPK said:

 

I've had a lot of dealings with Savoca and they've always been a pleasure to work with - quick payment and fast shipping. Of course every auction house makes mistakes at times, but the good ones (among whom I would place Savoca) are about as safe as you will get, and in the rare event of a fake slipping through they will doubtless give you a full refund.

That said, doing a bit of your own research can help a lot as well. Learn to decipher legends, look up types at OCRE or RPC and then go to CNG's research website or asearch to see what the same or similar coins sold for in the past. Or you can just search the same coin on VCoins or MA shops and see if any are for sale there. This will give you a rough idea of market value (although this can fluctuate pretty significantly over time!)

VCoins and MA shops are great fixed-price options for beginners. Savoca (especially Blue) auctions also usually have some good, less-expensive material as well as nicer coins. CNG is a great auction house but prices there tend to go high, although deals can still be had.

What is your primary collecting interest in ancient coins? I go for all different types, but mostly Roman Imperial coins.

Thanks again for the time you are putting in this! I will try and research more in the future. I would love some greek silvers especially Hellenistic, but they seem scarce and very expensive. I also love roman imperial issues up until me nod 2nd cent ad. I had my share of late roman bronzes from cleaning lots. I am also interested only in silver issues since I am sick of dealing with bronze disease. 

[DimitriosL]

9 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

Ah yes - and at last:

RTFM! Red the f**** manual 😂

 

Better - read the terms!

1. You must pay an auction commission fee! Some houses take 18%, but some houses also take 25%.
2. Read how much you pay for shipping!

If you are happy - only a example - that you win the Trajan for 80 Euro... add 20% commission fees = 96 Euro
Then add 25 Euro for shipping - and your final price was 121 Euro - round about 50% more you get the coin.

This is only an example - I dont know how much exactly Savoca take for fees and shipping.

At my beginning I won a 35 Euro Silver Denarius at Heritage Europe (Netherlands), pay include the fees (20%) 42 Euro and will added round about 45 Euro (!) for shipping from Netherland to Germany - so the 35 Euro coin cost me at the end round about 90 Euro! 

Ah - and if you cannot make an USD / USD bank Transfer - dont forget the fees with bank transfer - for example, if you paid from USD to (German) EUR:
Or you want pay with PayPal (4-5%) or paying with Credit Card (2-4%).

 

Long story, short. Dont look alone at the coin pice at the end! Calculate additional 25-30% more with all cost for commission, shipping, paying.
And - I dont know what country you are - the custom tax for import into your country!

 

 

Really helpful advice! I admit I haven't read the terms carefully. Savoca asks for a average 19% fee plus 15 euros shipping. Maybe buying more inexpensive coins or one premium more expensive one is better. Thanks again! 

[DimitriosL]

Any advice on handling/storing silver issues?

[Prieure de Sion]

27 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

Really helpful advice! I admit I haven't read the terms carefully. Savoca asks for a average 19% fee plus 15 euros shipping. Maybe buying more inexpensive coins or one premium more expensive one is better. Thanks again! 

To "buy" only one cheap coin - ends very often in one expensive coin - for example, the auction house isn't part of your country.

Example - I never buy one cheap coin at Roma in UK (to Germany).
Coin price + commission fee + shipping costs + German custom tax 

Savoca is another story - my "wife" lives in Munich and all coins I get at Savoca - she can pick up for me - also only one coin.
So I have only the commission fees, no fees for German to German bank transfer, no costs of shipping.

So - calculate before your bidding - so you have no big surprises.

 

29 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

I am sick of dealing with bronze disease. 

Bronze isn`t easy to buy (for beginners) - there are a lots of issues and traps. 

Forgeries, tooling, smoothing, repatinaded.... etc.

 

29 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

I would love some greek silvers especially Hellenistic

The feeling of me is - there are more forgeries at greek coins, as roman coins. Especially the Alexander Types and Seleucid are very popular create fake coins. If you not sure - ask the experts in the forum.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Prieure de Sion

[ambr0zie]

A little late for the party - if you want a Trajan coin, especially a first coin, try to aim for a more interesting one. 
Trajan's coinage is extensive with a lot of interesting reverses, and  you have a lot to pick from. For me (personal opinion) that coin is just a random, dull, Trajan denarius. 
The price obtained for it is average - and even if we're not talking big money here, I would say a little on the "high" side for an auction where one can sometimes get good deals. 

For 50 euros plus fees, I would pick another Trajan denarius - but that's me. 

What the colleagues posted before is correct but I want to highlight again - read the terms. I always do and I know that the invoice is not the sum of the hammer prices. I don't think buying just a cheap coin from an auction is a good deal. I did this recently in 2 auctions (1 coin and 2 coins) but I was prepared for it and I was happy with the prices (total prices)

My last invoice - 2 coins - 32 and 130 euros hammer prices - so "162 euros" - with fees and transport - 215 euros in reality. 

I don't think that buying, for example, a 32 euros coin from an auction is justified. 

[DimitriosL]

11 minutes ago, Prieure de Sion said:

To "buy" only one cheap coin - ends very often in one expensive coin - for example, the auction house isn't part of your country.

Example - I never buy one cheap coin at Roma in UK (to Germany).
Coin price + commission fee + shipping costs + German custom tax 

Savoca is another story - my "wife" lives in Munich and all coins I get at Savoca - she can pick up for me - also only one coin.
So I have only the commission fees, no fees for German to German bank transfer, no costs of shipping.

So - calculate before your bidding - so you have no big surprises.

 

Bronze isn`t easy to buy (for beginners) - there are a lots of issues and traps. 

Forgeries, tooling, smoothing, repatinaded.... etc.

 

The feeling of me is - there are more forgeries at greek coins, as roman coins. Especially the Alexander Types and Seleucid are very popular create fake coins. If you not sure - ask the experts in the forum.

 

 

Yes it seems you have to take a lot into consideration when buying coins from auctions. I believe this forum will help me avoid a lot of mistakes. I have bought a bunch of crusrty bronzes. I thought they would be safer than partially cleaned. A couple of very fine portaits of constantine II and constans but thats about it. A lot of bronze disease and poor grades. Still, fun hobbie for a while. You sir are one lucky man.

[DimitriosL]

4 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

A little late for the party - if you want a Trajan coin, especially a first coin, try to aim for a more interesting one. 
Trajan's coinage is extensive with a lot of interesting reverses, and  you have a lot to pick from. For me (personal opinion) that coin is just a random, dull, Trajan denarius. 
The price obtained for it is average - and even if we're not talking big money here, I would say a little on the "high" side for an auction where one can sometimes get good deals. 

For 50 euros plus fees, I would pick another Trajan denarius - but that's me. 

What the colleagues posted before is correct but I want to highlight again - read the terms. I always do and I know that the invoice is not the sum of the hammer prices. I don't think buying just a cheap coin from an auction is a good deal. I did this recently in 2 auctions (1 coin and 2 coins) but I was prepared for it and I was happy with the prices (total prices)

My last invoice - 2 coins - 32 and 130 euros hammer prices - so "162 euros" - with fees and transport - 215 euros in reality. 

I don't think that buying, for example, a 32 euros coin from an auction is justified. 

Thanks for the response! I want blown away by this issue either  but i had a bugdet limit of 60-65 euros as a first experimental purchase from an auction house. If you take into consideration that 2 other trajan denarii on the same lot were sold for 100-120 and they seemed pretty circulated i think i would still buy it at that price. Also i am a big sucker for dark toning on silver issues. Any suggestions for a first roman imperial at about a  100-150 price range?

[ambr0zie]

It all depends on the tastes. 

Here are the other 2 denarii you mentioned, for full visibility 

My (SUBJECTIVE) opinion - good details, good strike, attractive coin (condition+style). Personal opinion - I would prefer a more interesting coin for this sum. 

The coin is interesting (Hercules standing facing is an interesting reverse) but, again, in my subjective opinion, it's too expensive. 

If I want to buy this type, I would prefer one with some facial details remaining on Hercules and also the club, such as (older examples, but fairly recent)

2021 - 100 euros + fees 

... yesterday - 80 GBP plus fees. 

Again - in the end all that matters is the collector's taste. For me, the prices for the 2 coins in the recent auction are not a good deal. But if the winner or winners are happy with them, this is what matters. The price of the coin is exactly the price a collector is willing to pay for it. 

2 Trajan denarii from my collection I like a lot (but condition is NOT a major factor) 

Prices - 60 and 70 euros + fees. Bought in the same auction. 

55 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

but i had a bugdet limit of 60-65 euros as a first experimental purchase from an auction house.

I don't think it is enough - remember you have fees+transport so this would mean a 35-40 euros coin depending on fees or transport. Of course, nobody would stop you to buy a single coin and there are plenty of nice coins in this sum. Here is my penultimate purchase - bought just one coin from an auction

52 euros hammer. Including fees, paypal tax and transport - total of 79.2 euros. I found this decent as I simply fell in love with the coin and I consider the total price a good deal.  It's not exactly easy to find a coin (that would be around 40 euros) to worth the effort of buying a single coin for the auction ... and you might end wondering why you paid 65 euros on it. 

1 hour ago, DimitriosL said:

Any suggestions for a first roman imperial at about a  100-150 price range

Absolutely, but are you sure my tastes would fit yours? For 150 euros I would buy 2 or even 3 denarii. Not in XF condition, but DECENT condition and with interesting features (again, personal tastes ...). Denarii of emperors like Vespasian, Antoninus Pius, even Trajan, Domitian, or empresses - Faustina I, II, Lucilla, Crispina can be found. These are not the only examples. You need patience and make sure you get coins you like. 

Here is a coin I lost on on the same mentioned auction - and I consider it an excellent buy - I think it was a bad decision on my side to let it go 

 

 

[John Conduitt]

This is the sort of coin that is good for a beginner to buy, and a place that is good to buy from. You can't have a complete disaster. As long as you like the coin and have checked the prices of other coins with exactly the same RIC reference (CPK gave lots of links to do that), you can't go wrong. Many earlier imperial - Hadrian, Antoninus Pius - are popular and common, and the silver isn't so debased it will need much care.

You are likely to overpay a little, mainly because you are going to buy one coin from an auction, but don't over-think it. Otherwise, you might not ever buy (waiting for everything to be perfect) or be tempted to buy more coins just to share the shipping cost, and that way lies ruin 🤣

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by John Conduitt

[ambr0zie]

14 minutes ago, John Conduitt said:

but don't over-think it. Otherwise, you might not ever buy (waiting for everything to be perfect) or be tempted to buy more coins just to share the shipping cost, and that way lies ruin 

Amen. In almost all my auctions I usually end up getting more coins than I want (oh well "than I want" is not exactly correct...) with the excellent excuse I tell to myself "I need to make the transport worthy"

Best strategy in my opinion - if you 1. see a coin that you like (in all aspects, fits your collecting area, good condition, whatever criteria you have) and 2. the price is in the correct range (this is up to the collector to decide, based on previous hammer prices + the personal importance of the coin) - buy it. Of course, be careful on the budget AND bidding wars AND how many coins you want, otherwise you might see this coming out of nowhere 

Edited February 13, 2023 by ambr0zie

[CPK]

45 minutes ago, ambr0zie said:

Amen. In almost all my auctions I usually end up getting more coins than I want (oh well "than I want" is not exactly correct...) with the excellent excuse I tell to myself "I need to make the transport worthy"

Best strategy in my opinion - if you 1. see a coin that you like (in all aspects, fits your collecting area, good condition, whatever criteria you have) and 2. the price is in the correct range (this is up to the collector to decide, based on previous hammer prices + the personal importance of the coin) - buy it. Of course, be careful on the budget AND bidding wars AND how many coins you want, otherwise you might see this coming out of nowhere 

 

Absolutely, been there done that! 😬 😄

[DimitriosL]

2 hours ago, ambr0zie said:

It all depends on the tastes. 

Here are the other 2 denarii you mentioned, for full visibility 

My (SUBJECTIVE) opinion - good details, good strike, attractive coin (condition+style). Personal opinion - I would prefer a more interesting coin for this sum. 

The coin is interesting (Hercules standing facing is an interesting reverse) but, again, in my subjective opinion, it's too expensive. 

If I want to buy this type, I would prefer one with some facial details remaining on Hercules and also the club, such as (older examples, but fairly recent)

2021 - 100 euros + fees 

... yesterday - 80 GBP plus fees. 

Again - in the end all that matters is the collector's taste. For me, the prices for the 2 coins in the recent auction are not a good deal. But if the winner or winners are happy with them, this is what matters. The price of the coin is exactly the price a collector is willing to pay for it. 

2 Trajan denarii from my collection I like a lot (but condition is NOT a major factor) 

Prices - 60 and 70 euros + fees. Bought in the same auction. 

I don't think it is enough - remember you have fees+transport so this would mean a 35-40 euros coin depending on fees or transport. Of course, nobody would stop you to buy a single coin and there are plenty of nice coins in this sum. Here is my penultimate purchase - bought just one coin from an auction

52 euros hammer. Including fees, paypal tax and transport - total of 79.2 euros. I found this decent as I simply fell in love with the coin and I consider the total price a good deal.  It's not exactly easy to find a coin (that would be around 40 euros) to worth the effort of buying a single coin for the auction ... and you might end wondering why you paid 65 euros on it. 

Absolutely, but are you sure my tastes would fit yours? For 150 euros I would buy 2 or even 3 denarii. Not in XF condition, but DECENT condition and with interesting features (again, personal tastes ...). Denarii of emperors like Vespasian, Antoninus Pius, even Trajan, Domitian, or empresses - Faustina I, II, Lucilla, Crispina can be found. These are not the only examples. You need patience and make sure you get coins you like. 

Here is a coin I lost on on the same mentioned auction - and I consider it an excellent buy - I think it was a bad decision on my side to let it go 

 

 

I can certainly see where you come from friend. Very interesting reverses on both your beauties. However, I want to have the best condition (plus decent ruler) for my buck, since I don't have an unlimited budget. Once I have obtained some decent basic issues then I'm gonna hunt the more unique ones. That's my goal for the near future. Thank you so much!

[DimitriosL]

2 hours ago, John Conduitt said:

This is the sort of coin that is good for a beginner to buy, and a place that is good to buy from. You can't have a complete disaster. As long as you like the coin and have checked the prices of other coins with exactly the same RIC reference (CPK gave lots of links to do that), you can't go wrong. Many earlier imperial - Hadrian, Antoninus Pius - are popular and common, and the silver isn't so debased it will need much care.

You are likely to overpay a little, mainly because you are going to buy one coin from an auction, but don't over-think it. Otherwise, you might not ever buy (waiting for everything to be perfect) or be tempted to buy more coins just to share the shipping cost, and that way lies ruin 🤣

 

Yes I was tempted to buy some extra antoniniani just for the sake of it. Better to invest in one good piece. So I'm not gonna gloves during handling or anything like that?

[DimitriosL]

The numismatic community seems the most positive so far!

[CPK]

18 minutes ago, DimitriosL said:

Yes I was tempted to buy some extra antoniniani just for the sake of it. Better to invest in one good piece. So I'm not gonna gloves during handling or anything like that?

Shouldn't be necessary. Personally, I don't wear gloves when handling any of my coins. But it's all a matter of what you're comfortable with.

You mentioned having to deal with bronze disease...may I ask what you did to try stopping it? I'm curious because I've recently had to deal with some myself, using sodium sesquicarbonate and large amounts of time, and while I managed to get rid of it I also got rid of the patina in the process.

[ambr0zie]

2 hours ago, DimitriosL said:

However, I want to have the best condition (plus decent ruler) for my buck, since I don't have an unlimited budget.

That is a good strategy also. Personally I am not a big fan of top condition because the prices are going up exponentially. I don't have many. The ones I do have - they were deals that couldn't be refused. 

The Domitian denarius I posted - I consider it well above average and an excellent coin. I probably made a mistake by not bidding more aggressively on it, but this is irrelevant now.
I try to avoid coins that are too worn (again - subjective) but for me the perfect coin is - historically important + nice design (... you guessed it ... subjective) + perfect balance between price and appeal (... I won't repeat myself). 

[DimitriosL]

15 hours ago, CPK said:

Shouldn't be necessary. Personally, I don't wear gloves when handling any of my coins. But it's all a matter of what you're comfortable with.

You mentioned having to deal with bronze disease...may I ask what you did to try stopping it? I'm curious because I've recently had to deal with some myself, using sodium sesquicarbonate and large amounts of time, and while I managed to get rid of it I also got rid of the patina in the process.

There a lot of remedies online so I tried to find the simplest one to begin with( no strong and potentially dangerous chemicals needed). I split the couple a3s a4s that were infected. Those that seemed more stable I just mechanically removed the infected parts and since then i am checking on them to see if the bd returns(tried to give them a chance before destroying the patina). For the others that seemed hopeless I tried thisthisethod. The patina was stripped for the most part but there were already pretty much water away by bd. So I didn't try anything too elaborate. However, I have heard good things about bd soaks from noble roman coins. He also provides extensive instructions. Bd is a total bitch.